(08-05-2021, 09:25 PM)Tank Commander Wrote:

(08-05-2021, 03:50 PM)Bullseye Wrote: Let's take everything you say here completely at face value for the moment.

1.  The WCO principles to which you refer did not begin to spread throughout the league until after Bill Walsh won his first Super Bowl with the 49ers in 1981.  The more successful the 49ers were in the 80s, the more assistants got hired around the league like Mike Holmgren and Dennis Green.  They brought those principles to the various teams.  None of the three guys you mentioned benefitted from those principles, as Unitas and Namath played their entire careers before Walsh became head coach at San Francisco in 1979.  While teams didn't pass as much back in the 60s and 70s as they do now, the deep pass was a far more prominent role in pro offenses then.

2.  The WCO became so successful and so ubiquitous throughout football, many of its principles were incorporated into offenses even though they may not technically be West Coast Offenses.  Tebow's coach in Denver, Josh McDaniels, came from New England, where Brady dinked and dunked throughout the bulk of his career.  Even though Tebow may not have been in a WCO and may have used read option principles, to suggest the WCO had no influence on the philosophy on any  level is misguided and naive.


3.  Even assuming Tebow derived NO benefit whatsoever from the WCO principles you cite, it is beyond question he benefitted from playing his entire career under the 1978 rules changes.  Namath and Unitas retired from football before those changes were instituted, and most of Bradshaw's career was already over when those rules were implemented.  When those rules were implemented, Bradshaw won two more Super Bowls, including two Super Bowl MVPs for SB XIII and XIV.  Tebow?  Not so much.  Furthermore, Namath's, Unitas, and Bradshaw's receivers did NOT benefit from the anti concussion rules implemented by Tagliabue and Goodell.  There were no "defenseless receivers."  If you were a receiver and you jumped for a pass, you were liable to get blasted by a defender.  Tebow's receivers got far more protection.  There were far fewer protections for QBs back when they played.  Glancing blows to the head, etc. were not penalized.  Intentional grounding rules were for more restrictive for QBs than they have been since Tebow was in the league.  Back then, even if you were outside of the pocket/tackle box and you threw the ball beyond the line of scrimmage, you could still be called for intentional grounding if it was obvious you were trying to avoid the sack.  Tebow wasn't hindered by such an interpretation/enforcement of the rules.  During the Namath, Unitas and Bradshaw eras, the headslap-a move used prominently by Hall of Fame DE Deacon Jones-was legal.  So offensive linemen could not extend their arms to block nor could they hold the way they can now, defenders could pop them in the heads while rushing the passer.

Within that context, there is ZERO excuse for Tebow to have below a 50% completion rate.  That is reflected in the overwhelming lack of interest in him by the majority of NFL teams once his career in Denver was over.

He simply could not play the position effectively at the NFL level, which is why he was out of the league for nine years and is why he is trying out at TE now.  Tebow cultists' obdurate inability/refusal to grasp this causes much of the antipathy towards Tebow evident even now.

Nice try.
That's all fine and dandy but you are basically admitting that the West Coast Offense leads to higher cosmetic completion percentage. I mean it makes sense, 3, 5, 10 yard passes are much easier to throw and catch.  Even most of the long plays in the West Coast Offense came off 10-15 yard slants where Rice ran for 30-50 yards after the catch thus inflating the West Coast QB's passing yards.

The reason guys like Unitas, Namath and Bradshaw had low completion percentage is because they threw the long ball, not dink and dunk 4 yard passes.

Even your god, Peyton Manning was only a 56% passer over his first 575 passing attempts. And that was in a conventional West Coast principles system.

With Tebow, he was in a read option offense. There was no need to throw 3-5-7 yard dink passes because they could get that yardage on the ground while also eating clock and controlling time of possession.  Which means he was only throwing longer passes which correlates to lower completion percentage as was the case with Bradshaw, Namath, Unitas. I'm sure you can see that but don't want to admit it.

First, I never denied the West Coast Offense places an emphasis on shorter passes.  I never tried to hide or minimize that fact.  I expressly state it here.  Now what?

Secondly, the prevalence of the deep pass in the pre WCO erais only ONE reason why their completion percentages are low.  The rules pre-dating the 1978 rules changes had an adverse impact on the passing game, including completion percentage.  Not that Tebow has that to blame.

Furthermore, how did Peyton Manning become my "god?"  Just because I don't worship Tebow doesn't mean i worship Peyton Manning.  That said, to whatever extent you are an NFL fan who puts NFL players on pedestals, Peyton Manning is far more worthy of the adulation than Tebow.  You brought up his completion percentage, indicating that over his first 576 passes (i.e. very early in his career) his completion percentage was low.  Putting aside, for the moment, that Manning did not play in a WCO under Jim freaking Mora and Tony freaking Dungy (two of the most offensively conservative coaches of the modern era), his completion percentage, as low as it was for those 576 passes (taking your representation at face value) his completion percentage during that time was still nearly TEN points higher than Tebow's. 

I'm sorry, but what sort of hallucinogen are you on to think Tebow comes out ahead or even remotely favorable in any comparison to Peyton Manning-of ALL people?!? You do this after grouping Tebow with Namath, Unitas and Bradshaw?!? Seriously?!?

You have seriously argued that the demands of his read option system in Denver, and NOT his deficiencies in accuracy, are solely to blame for Tebow's low career completion percentage.  If this is true, why weren't teams running more conventional offenses that needed a good QB willing to bring him aboard to run their offenses?  You know how many teams have added QBs since Tebow last played the position?!?  Jacksonville alone added Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, Gardner Minshew and Trevor Lawrence just off the top of my head.  The tacks added Marcus Mariota and Tannehill, among others since Tebow became available.  Exclude teams with GOAT QBs like the Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Packers, Saints, Seahawks and Chargers.  Throw in Denver since they brought in an injured aging and declining Peyton Manning in to replace him.  That leaves some 25 other teams that have added QBs at one point or another, that don't run that read option, that opted NOT to bring in Tebow and give him a shot at starting QB.

To what do you attribute that?

Another troubling line of related inquiry is why McDaniels ran that offense in the first place.  He had his success in New England running an offense that is the antithesis of the read option.  Quarterback stands in the pocket and largely dinks and dunks all game long.  That's the approach that got McDaniels his shot at a head coaching gig.  He had success coaching a GOAT QB with that approach.  So why would he abandon that approach when he drafted Tebow?  He wanted to maximize Tebow's chances for success.  Tebow ran a lot of read option in college.  It was an offense tailor made for Tebow's skillset.  But even with that offense tailored to him, he produced mediocrity and non interest in his skillset around the rest of the league.  Mcdaniels was subsequently fired for it and has not been a head coach since.

Think about that for a minute.

Tebow could not produce at a competent level in an offense designed with him in mind.  The coach that gambled the biggest on him-McDaniels-crashed and burned.  Given this, why would any other coach-one NOT running that allegedly QB unfriendly system-bring Tebowin to start for them?

Why would any sane football fan, for that matter?

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