(Emphasis added)

But every player drafted fills a role-or at least is supposed to, assuming he makes the team.  There are no position less players, despite the contrived trend among pundits is to try to make a player or two just that (see Isaiah Simmons).

But that doesn't necessarily make the player a need pick in the traditional sense.

Every player should have an NFL role, otherwise there's no point in drafting them, that's an obvious tautology. When Meyer said he wanted Tooney but settled for Etienne he was actually saying he was taking someone to fill the Harvey [sic] (Harvin?)role there regardless of ability, even if the guy was a running back with a lot of mileage and not a guy primarily known for his receiving ability.

When a team drafts players based on demonstrated ability, which is combination of college production correlating to NFL production (so taking a quarterback with a fullback's skillet, like Tebow, wouldn't apply) along with positional value and measurable athletic ability, rather than a fantasy about them filling out the roster in a perfect way to make some idiot's scheme work, then that's bap. The Jaguars have a bad tendency to ignore ability and start going into fantasy when they make their picks. Either that or they have no ability to observe demonstrated ability or access positional value.

If they really just are terrible at evaluating talent then that's even worse than being a needs drafter, and there's no need to defend them.

Again, I don't see the willingness to do that as being wholly unmindful of ability.  Before the draft, there was much speculation by the exoerts that Travis Etienne was a potential late first round talent, with pre draft and real time speculation having him with the Jets, Bills or Bucs.  In Lindy's 2021 draft preview magazine, typically released in early March, Etienne was given a 2nd round grade.  While not on the mark exactly, was at least in the ball park compared to where he went.  Those who would have the biggest critique of the pick did so due to positional value (i.e. the idea you should never take a RB in the first round), and the lack of need (i.e. the Jaguars already had James Robinson at the same position), not because of the overall lack of talent Etienne possesses. It's not as if Meyer took a guy like Kylin Hill (projected by Lindy's as a 5th rounder) at that spot.  Might UM have been saying he would fill the role regardless of POSITION?  That is more plausible to me.  In UMs offense at Florida, Harvin was a receiver, though in many instances he played RB.  He valued the versatility his explosiveness and agility provided in Harvin's case.  A player of lesser speed and explosiveness (i.e. lesser talent) would not be able to fill a Harvin type role.  It's not as if he randomly drafted a kicker or an interior OL to play the role.  There had to have been some correlation between the skill set to fill the role and the player selected.



Etienne had demonstrated ability, based upon your own definition.  He had outstanding college production, and his speed and explosiveness by most metrics would seem to readly correlate to success in the NFL.  It goes back to perceived positional value.  While there is a growing sentiment that RBs should not be taken in the first round because of guys like Robinson, Alvin Kamara and Arian Foster who were all found later in drafts if drafted at all, the fact is with very few exceptions, NFL history demonstrates teams, even successful franchises, value RB enough to draft them in the first round (see Pittsburgh this year with Harris, taken exactly one spot before Etienne).  Does that mean the Steelers got that pick right?  No, but it does mean they don't necessarily share the view about positional value that many of us do.  Just the year before, the Chiefs took a RB in the first round.  They are pretty good at finding talent, as their two Super Bowl appearances in the last two years will attest.





Now if they just flat out suck at evaluating talent, which sadly is a possibility at this point. then that IS worse than a needs drafter and definitely should NOT be defended by anyone wanting to see the Jaguars succeed.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

This is an interesting conversation and one that gets much closer to the real problems that we have and why we are stuck in this endless loop of bad seasons. We are just very bad at player retention and who we pick up, in FA or draft.

Nearly every year we are picking top 5 which pretty much guarantees a high quality prospect. Ive always felt any 1st round pick up until around pick 27+ should be good enough to push for a starting position for any team. We have the BAP vs Need debate every offseason but as Bullseye pointed out earlier, we are weak in so many positions our needs are many. 

Ive complained for a few years that we let too many players walk after rookie deals as we view them as not good enough or not worth the cash but i also think we have done a bad job at developing that talent through poor coaching and endlessly changing coaches that stops us developing systems and fine tuning plays for individual players. Its painful seeing 'busts' for us go to other teams and have success and something we are seeing more and more.

We have had a number of talented players come here in recent years and then left through trades or contracts expiring and not replaced them with similar or better quality players which then means we have to spend future draft picks and cap trying to find better replacements. Its just a cycle of diminishing returns.

No team has 1st round picks at every position and every team needs to find those 4th round and later picks that they can develop into starter quality. No team is perfect at this but we seem to struggle and not be able to do this far worse than any other franchise and we need to figure out why or we will be stuck in this loop.

---

Every player should have an NFL role, otherwise there's no point in drafting them, that's an obvious tautology. When Meyer said he wanted Tooney but settled for Etienne he was actually saying he was taking someone to fill the Harvey [sic] (Harvin?)role there regardless of ability, even if the guy was a running back with a lot of mileage and not a guy primarily known for his receiving ability.

When a team drafts players based on demonstrated ability, which is combination of college production correlating to NFL production (so taking a quarterback with a fullback's skillet, like Tebow, wouldn't apply) along with positional value and measurable athletic ability, rather than a fantasy about them filling out the roster in a perfect way to make some idiot's scheme work, then that's bap. The Jaguars have a bad tendency to ignore ability and start going into fantasy when they make their picks. Either that or they have no ability to observe demonstrated ability or access positional value.

If they really just are terrible at evaluating talent then that's even worse than being a needs drafter, and there's no need to defend them.

Again, I don't see the willingness to do that as being wholly unmindful of ability.  Before the draft, there was much speculation by the exoerts that Travis Etienne was a potential late first round talent, with pre draft and real time speculation having him with the Jets, Bills or Bucs.  In Lindy's 2021 draft preview magazine, typically released in early March, Etienne was given a 2nd round grade.  While not on the mark exactly, was at least in the ball park compared to where he went.  Those who would have the biggest critique of the pick did so due to positional value (i.e. the idea you should never take a RB in the first round), and the lack of need (i.e. the Jaguars already had James Robinson at the same position), not because of the overall lack of talent Etienne possesses. It's not as if Meyer took a guy like Kylin Hill (projected by Lindy's as a 5th rounder) at that spot.  Might UM have been saying he would fill the role regardless of POSITION?  That is more plausible to me.  In UMs offense at Florida, Harvin was a receiver, though in many instances he played RB.  He valued the versatility his explosiveness and agility provided in Harvin's case.  A player of lesser speed and explosiveness (i.e. lesser talent) would not be able to fill a Harvin type role.  It's not as if he randomly drafted a kicker or an interior OL to play the role.  There had to have been some correlation between the skill set to fill the role and the player selected.

Etienne had demonstrated ability, based upon your own definition.  He had outstanding college production, and his speed and explosiveness by most metrics would seem to readly correlate to success in the NFL.  It goes back to perceived positional value.  While there is a growing sentiment that RBs should not be taken in the first round because of guys like Robinson, Alvin Kamara and Arian Foster who were all found later in drafts if drafted at all, the fact is with very few exceptions, NFL history demonstrates teams, even successful franchises, value RB enough to draft them in the first round (see Pittsburgh this year with Harris, taken exactly one spot before Etienne).  Does that mean the Steelers got that pick right?  No, but it does mean they don't necessarily share the view about positional value that many of us do.


Now if they just flat out suck at evaluating talent, which sadly is a possibility at this point. then that IS worse than a needs drafter and definitely should NOT be defended by anyone wanting to see the Jaguars succeed.

Every player should have an NFL role, otherwise there's no point in drafting them, that's an obvious tautology. When Meyer said he wanted Tooney but settled for Etienne he was actually saying he was taking someone to fill the Harvey [sic] (Harvin?)role there regardless of ability, even if the guy was a running back with a lot of mileage and not a guy primarily known for his receiving ability.

When a team drafts players based on demonstrated ability, which is combination of college production correlating to NFL production (so taking a quarterback with a fullback's skillet, like Tebow, wouldn't apply) along with positional value and measurable athletic ability, rather than a fantasy about them filling out the roster in a perfect way to make some idiot's scheme work, then that's bap. The Jaguars have a bad tendency to ignore ability and start going into fantasy when they make their picks. Either that or they have no ability to observe demonstrated ability or access positional value.

If they really just are terrible at evaluating talent then that's even worse than being a needs drafter, and there's no need to defend them.

Again, I don't see the willingness to do that as being wholly unmindful of ability.  Before the draft, there was much speculation by the exoerts that Travis Etienne was a potential late first round talent, with pre draft and real time speculation having him with the Jets, Bills or Bucs.  In Lindy's 2021 draft preview magazine, typically released in early March, Etienne was given a 2nd round grade.  While not on the mark exactly, was at least in the ball park compared to where he went.  Those who would have the biggest critique of the pick did so due to positional value (i.e. the idea you should never take a RB in the first round), not because of the overall lack of talent. It's not as if Meyer took a guy like Kylin Hill (projected by Lindy's as a 5th rounder) at that spot.  Might UM have been saying he would fill the role regardless of POSITION?  That is more plausible to me.  In UMs offense at Florida, Harvin was a receiver, though in many instances he played RB.  He valued the versatility his explosiveness and agility provided in Harvin's case.  A player of lesser speed and explosiveness (i.e. lesser talent) would not be able to fill a Harvin type role.

Etienne had demonstrated ability, based upon your  own definition.  He had outstanding college production, and his speed and explosiveness by most metrics would correlate to success in the NFL.  It goes back to perceived positional value.  While there is a growing sentiment that RBs should not be taken in the first round because of guys like Robinson, Alvin Kamara and Arian Foster who were all found later in drafts if drafted at all, the fact is with very few exceptions, NFL history demonstrates teams, even successful franchises, value RB enough to draft them in the first round (see Pittsburgh this year with Harris, taken exactly one spot before Etienne).  Does that mean the Steelers got that pick right?  No, but it does mean they don't necessarily share the view about positional value that many of us do.  Just the year before, the Chiefs took a RB in the first round.  They are pretty good at finding talent, as their two Super Bowl appearances in the last two years will attest.

Yes I meant Harvin. I post with a tablet, a lot, and it will change names if you don't pay attention.

As for your greater point, Etienne showed ability as a running back, and frankly not elite ability, just decent ability. Drafting a running back with one cut ability and decent speed in the first is too high.

Drafting a player to put them in a role you don't even have a good indication they can fulfill is the height of idiocy.

This is an interesting conversation and one that gets much closer to the real problems that we have and why we are stuck in this endless loop of bad seasons. We are just very bad at player retention and who we pick up, in FA or draft.

Nearly every year we are picking top 5 which pretty much guarantees a high quality prospect. Ive always felt any 1st round pick up until around pick 27+ should be good enough to push for a starting position for any team. We have the BAP vs Need debate every offseason but as Bullseye pointed out earlier, we are weak in so many positions our needs are many. 

Ive complained for a few years that we let too many players walk after rookie deals as we view them as not good enough or not worth the cash but i also think we have done a bad job at developing that talent through poor coaching and endlessly changing coaches that stops us developing systems and fine tuning plays for individual players. Its painful seeing 'busts' for us go to other teams and have success and something we are seeing more and more.

We have had a number of talented players come here in recent years and then left through trades or contracts expiring and not replaced them with similar or better quality players which then means we have to spend future draft picks and cap trying to find better replacements. Its just a cycle of diminishing returns.

No team has 1st round picks at every position and every team needs to find those 4th round and later picks that they can develop into starter quality. No team is perfect at this but we seem to struggle and not be able to do this far worse than any other franchise and we need to figure out why or we will be stuck in this loop.

The Jaguars' problem is they keep drafting players too high based on their perceived need instead of picking an elite player regardless of imagined need.

Sure those guys go somewhere else and are productive, but that's because they're just a role player there, not the engine.

When it comes to NFL players there are three levels, elite engines, role player trailers, and anchors.

The first kind of player makes it possible for a team to have an elite unit. You can't have an elite unit without at least one elite player that either always, or almost always wins their matchup. Ramsey is that kind of player, Calais is that kind of player. The Jaguars currently don't have any player like that. If Trevor continues to develope he'll be able to make good players seem elite one day, but he's not fully there, yet. These guys are engines because they pull your teams overall quality forward.

The second kind of player can look like an great player when they have an elite player with them. Ngakoue is an example of that kind of player. In 2017 and 18 he looked borderline elite. Once no over was around him he stopped winning. Same for Josh Allen right now. Really good talent, not an elite talent as a pass rusher. The jaguars have a few players like this, such as Chark and Shenault. They'd both look great with someone like Julio Jones pulling attention from them. These guys are trailers, an engine and move them forward, but they can't make that difference on their own.

Then you have your anchors, guys who drag the team down with their poor ability. The jaguars have had a lot of guys like this over the years. Fournette and Taven are examples of this. Guys who needed everyone around them to do well in order to not fail, or who had middling talent and poor effort and work ethic. The Jaguars have drafted way too many guys like that over the years.

---

I sometimes wonder if it’s the prevailing culture, or perhaps player preconceptions about coming into Jacksonville, which renders some of them as less than ideal effort-wise.

The new team facilities being planned will go a ways towards presenting Jacksonville as a good destination. A winning record always helps too.

---

Ive complained for a few years that we let too many players walk after rookie deals as we view them as not good enough or not worth the cash but i also think we have done a bad job at developing that talent through poor coaching and endlessly changing coaches that stops us developing systems and fine tuning plays for individual players. Its painful seeing 'busts' for us go to other teams and have success and something we are seeing more and more.

We have had a number of talented players come here in recent years and then left through trades or contracts expiring and not replaced them with similar or better quality players which then means we have to spend future draft picks and cap trying to find better replacements. Its just a cycle of diminishing returns.

No team has 1st round picks at every position and every team needs to find those 4th round and later picks that they can develop into starter quality. No team is perfect at this but we seem to struggle and not be able to do this far worse than any other franchise and we need to figure out why or we will be stuck in this loop.

Exactly!

I describe this dynamic as drafting on a treadmill.  All of that effort expended only to not go anywhere.

It takes time to develop talent.  To actually find quality talent and develop it with coaching and experience, only to let them walk away in their primes makes it impossible to accumulate talent, have continuity or progress as a team.  It makes it difficult to have an experienced team or have experienced team leaders.  The team is always having to overcome inexperience.  When you let them walk and then botch things when drafting their replacement, it makes matters far worse.

When the Ramsey controversy flared up, everyone said we were better off without him, he could be replaced, he was a cancer, etc.  Same with Ngakoue.

Well are we better off without them?

Since Ramsey left, our pass defense has gone into the toilet.  We've highly drafted two players to ostensibly replace him:  CJ Henderson and Tyson Campbell.  After just over a year past drafting him 9th overall, Henderson has been traded for a 3rd rounder.  Campbell was taken in the 2nd round and has played horribly thus far, and has already missed a game or two with injury.  Our record since he last played a game for us (Tennessee in week 3 2019) is 6-28...1-20 since teams have had a full offseason to prepare for the team without him.   Conversely, since acquiring this cancer, the Rams went 6-3 in 2019 (finished 9-7 overall) , 10-6 last year, making the divisional round of the playoffs, and are considered a Super Bowl contender in the NFC.

In Ngakoue's last full season with the Jaguars, 2019, he had 8 sacks.  Josh Allen, then a rookie, was freed to have 10.5 sacks.  Since he was traded in 2020 along with Campbell, the pass rush has gone into the toilet.  Smoot was our leading sacker with 5.5.  In five games this year, we've accumulated only a handful of sacks.

It seems to me if Ramsey and Ngakoue were cancers, then the cure of purging them from the roster is worse than the disease itself.  Perhaps the next time someone offers us the snake oil of addition by subtraction of talented and productive players from the roster, we should give a hard pass.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Which begs the question of how to deal with locker room cancers. Should they be held to their contractual commitments with the risk they spread their animosity and intentionally don’t play to their abilities? Or excise them?

---

I sometimes wonder if it’s the prevailing culture, or perhaps player preconceptions about coming into Jacksonville, which renders some of them as less than ideal effort-wise.

The new team facilities being planned will go a ways towards presenting Jacksonville as a good destination. A winning record always helps too.

Yes, I think there is something to that.

I believe in terms of drafted players, they see the few productive drafted players not retained by the team, the team not accumulating talent, and not winning.  Whatever external motivators of winning or financial reward for excellent are largely non existent here, and that could lead to lesser effort.

In terms of free agents, i think that dynamic serves as a deterrent, keeping potential contributors away from the team.  What remains is often the "mercenary" who is just out for the buck, who doesn't really care if they win or not, or the guys who care about winning but are less talented.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

When we have had progress, break through and built success, we executed a plan.

Expansion - balance, compete and win the division, hard work
Del Rio - run the ball, win at home again and manage games

The only reason I don't like 2017 is because we had a great defense and a streaky offense. We built the defense but didn't really work the development on offense. They got tunnel vision and melted it down.

I like the treadmill analogy because it is just chasing and not executing a plan.

The plans we see strongly supported are facilities and pet projects. Putting the cart before the horse. No on field goals.

I hope there is a way out but Meyer and Baalke don't look the part. Have to wait again.

---

The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

yes Jags are good at being laughing stock of nfl unfortanttly. at least our team is good at that,and loseing. not things you want to be good at though.

---

snowwolf titans owner in madden.

note titans owner means im undeafted againest them. 

Which begs the question of how to deal with locker room cancers. Should they be held to their contractual commitments with the risk they spread their animosity and intentionally don’t play to their abilities? Or excise them?

I think it's an issue that we never seem to keep a core of veterans players to establish any kind of culture. 

Then when we get the young hotheads, they feel free to act out of pocket. 

Malik Jackson seemed to be a vocal leader, I thought Telvin was on his way to becoming one but....

Most of our other good veterans have always seemed more like lead by example types.

---

Again, I don't see the willingness to do that as being wholly unmindful of ability.  Before the draft, there was much speculation by the exoerts that Travis Etienne was a potential late first round talent, with pre draft and real time speculation having him with the Jets, Bills or Bucs.  In Lindy's 2021 draft preview magazine, typically released in early March, Etienne was given a 2nd round grade.  While not on the mark exactly, was at least in the ball park compared to where he went.  Those who would have the biggest critique of the pick did so due to positional value (i.e. the idea you should never take a RB in the first round), and the lack of need (i.e. the Jaguars already had James Robinson at the same position), not because of the overall lack of talent Etienne possesses. It's not as if Meyer took a guy like Kylin Hill (projected by Lindy's as a 5th rounder) at that spot.  Might UM have been saying he would fill the role regardless of POSITION?  That is more plausible to me.  In UMs offense at Florida, Harvin was a receiver, though in many instances he played RB.  He valued the versatility his explosiveness and agility provided in Harvin's case.  A player of lesser speed and explosiveness (i.e. lesser talent) would not be able to fill a Harvin type role.  It's not as if he randomly drafted a kicker or an interior OL to play the role.  There had to have been some correlation between the skill set to fill the role and the player selected.

Etienne had demonstrated ability, based upon your own definition.  He had outstanding college production, and his speed and explosiveness by most metrics would seem to readly correlate to success in the NFL.  It goes back to perceived positional value.  While there is a growing sentiment that RBs should not be taken in the first round because of guys like Robinson, Alvin Kamara and Arian Foster who were all found later in drafts if drafted at all, the fact is with very few exceptions, NFL history demonstrates teams, even successful franchises, value RB enough to draft them in the first round (see Pittsburgh this year with Harris, taken exactly one spot before Etienne).  Does that mean the Steelers got that pick right?  No, but it does mean they don't necessarily share the view about positional value that many of us do.


Now if they just flat out suck at evaluating talent, which sadly is a possibility at this point. then that IS worse than a needs drafter and definitely should NOT be defended by anyone wanting to see the Jaguars succeed.





Again, I don't see the willingness to do that as being wholly unmindful of ability.  Before the draft, there was much speculation by the exoerts that Travis Etienne was a potential late first round talent, with pre draft and real time speculation having him with the Jets, Bills or Bucs.  In Lindy's 2021 draft preview magazine, typically released in early March, Etienne was given a 2nd round grade.  While not on the mark exactly, was at least in the ball park compared to where he went.  Those who would have the biggest critique of the pick did so due to positional value (i.e. the idea you should never take a RB in the first round), not because of the overall lack of talent. It's not as if Meyer took a guy like Kylin Hill (projected by Lindy's as a 5th rounder) at that spot.  Might UM have been saying he would fill the role regardless of POSITION?  That is more plausible to me.  In UMs offense at Florida, Harvin was a receiver, though in many instances he played RB.  He valued the versatility his explosiveness and agility provided in Harvin's case.  A player of lesser speed and explosiveness (i.e. lesser talent) would not be able to fill a Harvin type role.

Etienne had demonstrated ability, based upon your  own definition.  He had outstanding college production, and his speed and explosiveness by most metrics would correlate to success in the NFL.  It goes back to perceived positional value.  While there is a growing sentiment that RBs should not be taken in the first round because of guys like Robinson, Alvin Kamara and Arian Foster who were all found later in drafts if drafted at all, the fact is with very few exceptions, NFL history demonstrates teams, even successful franchises, value RB enough to draft them in the first round (see Pittsburgh this year with Harris, taken exactly one spot before Etienne).  Does that mean the Steelers got that pick right?  No, but it does mean they don't necessarily share the view about positional value that many of us do.  Just the year before, the Chiefs took a RB in the first round.  They are pretty good at finding talent, as their two Super Bowl appearances in the last two years will attest.

Yes I meant Harvin. I post with a tablet, a lot, and it will change names if you don't pay attention.

As for your greater point, Etienne showed ability as a running back, and frankly not elite ability, just decent ability. Drafting a running back with one cut ability and decent speed in the first is too high.

Drafting a player to put them in a role you don't even have a good indication they can fulfill is the height of idiocy.

This is an interesting conversation and one that gets much closer to the real problems that we have and why we are stuck in this endless loop of bad seasons. We are just very bad at player retention and who we pick up, in FA or draft.

Nearly every year we are picking top 5 which pretty much guarantees a high quality prospect. Ive always felt any 1st round pick up until around pick 27+ should be good enough to push for a starting position for any team. We have the BAP vs Need debate every offseason but as Bullseye pointed out earlier, we are weak in so many positions our needs are many. 

Ive complained for a few years that we let too many players walk after rookie deals as we view them as not good enough or not worth the cash but i also think we have done a bad job at developing that talent through poor coaching and endlessly changing coaches that stops us developing systems and fine tuning plays for individual players. Its painful seeing 'busts' for us go to other teams and have success and something we are seeing more and more.

We have had a number of talented players come here in recent years and then left through trades or contracts expiring and not replaced them with similar or better quality players which then means we have to spend future draft picks and cap trying to find better replacements. Its just a cycle of diminishing returns.

No team has 1st round picks at every position and every team needs to find those 4th round and later picks that they can develop into starter quality. No team is perfect at this but we seem to struggle and not be able to do this far worse than any other franchise and we need to figure out why or we will be stuck in this loop.

The Jaguars' problem is they keep drafting players too high based on their perceived need instead of picking an elite player regardless of imagined need.

Sure those guys go somewhere else and are productive, but that's because they're just a role player there, not the engine.

When it comes to NFL players there are three levels, elite engines, role player trailers, and anchors.

The first kind of player makes it possible for a team to have an elite unit. You can't have an elite unit without at least one elite player that either always, or almost always wins their matchup. Ramsey is that kind of player, Calais is that kind of player. The Jaguars currently don't have any player like that. If Trevor continues to develope he'll be able to make good players seem elite one day, but he's not fully there, yet. These guys are engines because they pull your teams overall quality forward.

The second kind of player can look like an great player when they have an elite player with them. Ngakoue is an example of that kind of player. In 2017 and 18 he looked borderline elite. Once no over was around him he stopped winning. Same for Josh Allen right now. Really good talent, not an elite talent as a pass rusher. The jaguars have a few players like this, such as Chark and Shenault. They'd both look great with someone like Julio Jones pulling attention from them. These guys are trailers, an engine and move them forward, but they can't make that difference on their own.

Then you have your anchors, guys who drag the team down with their poor ability. The jaguars have had a lot of guys like this over the years. Fournette and Taven are examples of this. Guys who needed everyone around them to do well in order to not fail, or who had middling talent and poor effort and work ethic. The Jaguars have drafted way too many guys like that over the years.

Thats a great way of looking at what we actually have talent wise. If you were being brutally honest with what we have at the moment 

Elite- Lawrence will get there if given the time, weapons and playbook. His skill set is tremendous and has the physical qualities.
         Robinson is borderline. Very good player who somehow went undrafted but im not sure if he could carry an O single handedly.

Role Players- Id say Chark, Shaq Griffin, Jack, Josh Allen, Shenault are the only guys we really have. On their own their are solid but none are that elite level but like you say, with better quality players around them they would be more impactful and play to a higher level

Anchors- Thats basically the rest of the roster right now. We have lots of young players who you hope could step up but you can count on one hand how many we have helped do that. These are players who would be 4th/5th position on depth charts that you hope don't really see the field. 

We have the cap and the high draft sports to bring in thesr better quality of players but we do a bad job of identifying exactly what we need and coaching them up and putting them in position to take those steps.

---

Ive complained for a few years that we let too many players walk after rookie deals as we view them as not good enough or not worth the cash but i also think we have done a bad job at developing that talent through poor coaching and endlessly changing coaches that stops us developing systems and fine tuning plays for individual players. Its painful seeing 'busts' for us go to other teams and have success and something we are seeing more and more.

We have had a number of talented players come here in recent years and then left through trades or contracts expiring and not replaced them with similar or better quality players which then means we have to spend future draft picks and cap trying to find better replacements. Its just a cycle of diminishing returns.

No team has 1st round picks at every position and every team needs to find those 4th round and later picks that they can develop into starter quality. No team is perfect at this but we seem to struggle and not be able to do this far worse than any other franchise and we need to figure out why or we will be stuck in this loop.

Exactly!

I describe this dynamic as drafting on a treadmill.  All of that effort expended only to not go anywhere.

It takes time to develop talent.  To actually find quality talent and develop it with coaching and experience, only to let them walk away in their primes makes it impossible to accumulate talent, have continuity or progress as a team.  It makes it difficult to have an experienced team or have experienced team leaders.  The team is always having to overcome inexperience.  When you let them walk and then botch things when drafting their replacement, it makes matters far worse.

When the Ramsey controversy flared up, everyone said we were better off without him, he could be replaced, he was a cancer, etc.  Same with Ngakoue.

Well are we better off without them?

Since Ramsey left, our pass defense has gone into the toilet.  We've highly drafted two players to ostensibly replace him:  CJ Henderson and Tyson Campbell.  After just over a year past drafting him 9th overall, Henderson has been traded for a 3rd rounder.  Campbell was taken in the 2nd round and has played horribly thus far, and has already missed a game or two with injury.  Our record since he last played a game for us (Tennessee in week 3 2019) is 6-28...1-20 since teams have had a full offseason to prepare for the team without him.   Conversely, since acquiring this cancer, the Rams went 6-3 in 2019 (finished 9-7 overall) , 10-6 last year, making the divisional round of the playoffs, and are considered a Super Bowl contender in the NFC.

In Ngakoue's last full season with the Jaguars, 2019, he had 8 sacks.  Josh Allen, then a rookie, was freed to have 10.5 sacks.  Since he was traded in 2020 along with Campbell, the pass rush has gone into the toilet.  Smoot was our leading sacker with 5.5.  In five games this year, we've accumulated only a handful of sacks.

It seems to me if Ramsey and Ngakoue were cancers, then the cure of purging them from the roster is worse than the disease itself.  Perhaps the next time someone offers us the snake oil of addition by subtraction of talented and productive players from the roster, we should give a hard pass.

Couldn't agree more. It takes time to adjust to the NFL and it takes years to become a dominant player in your position. There can be a number of reasons it takes time for a player to develop but we have this weird thing where the high picks are given a short leash but the late round and UDFA aren't. I mean take someone like Herndon, does anyone think hes suddenly going to become an elite CB but we keep him around while guys like Bouye are traded for peanuts.

If your constantly having to rebuild huge parts of your roster than your doing something wrong. A roster should be something you are adding to every year not replacing. Completely agree with the lack of experience and i ask myself who are all these young players learning from? Whos teaching them what to do and what not to do? 

I know Ramsey didn't do himself any favors with how he left but i always felt the 'locker room cancer' was a poor argument. Yeah he would trash talk and had an ego but he is an elite football player, i expect that. He always played hard for us and i never felt he didn't care. I think the whole situation could have gone differently if the FO had handled things differently but i also think the D just had enough of the bad O while they were playing at a very high level and then they would have the problems with Coughlin and co. 

Like you say, they have gone elsewhere and played well and these issues dont see them to be issues now. I kind of look at it like say you work hard in your job but your co-workers are lazy and keep messing up yet your boss blames everyone, how long before you go look for a new job? Especially if they arent fixing the actual problem?

I do also think we've become a bit too obsessed that the answer to all our problems are in the draft and draft picks will fix the problems. Time and again we see it hasnt and i get the argument of not having to trade or spend high in FA to get the top players but letting talent walk out the door for draft picks we hope can be as good just seems crazy to me.

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the players we let go haven't really done anything except for Campbell, Ramsey and maybe Yannick he seems to be fitting in nicely in Las Vegas.

CJ Henderson and Boyue are both underperforming in Carolina, Schobert is not playing well, none of the WRs or CBs we let go are doing anything. so this comes down to the GM previous that shows how bad we drafted. it isn't even close how bad we drafted.

At least now we have some key players in certain spots we have drafted not talking about FA.

QB - Lawrence
RB - Robinson
LB - Jack, Chaisson and Allen
DL - Hamilton
WR - Laviska and Maybe Chark if they resign him
OL - Little, bartch, Maybe Robinson
DB - Cisco, Campbell
P - Cooke

so looking at this we have 13 Starters from our rookies or less than 4 year starters.

if this team can get the coach right which so far has been not good so far for Meyer, but he does have the team getting better every week. we could be looking very good by the end of the season and into 2022. if the guys put it together all it takes is winning a couple to get some confidence and we could pull off a nice win streak in a crap division. no team is out of it yet in the South.

Only thing i don't understand right now is why is Cisco not playing over 30 yard deep Wingard. Campbell i think can be very good once he gets reps and training to get more aware. as he is not being beat bad just isn't getting his hands or head up in time, is this on Cullen or the DB Coach? After-all everyone says we have a rookie Coach in Meyer, but don't forget we also have a Rookie Defense coordinator in Cullen. he has coached in the NFL a long time but never as a coordinator. So is he not putting Cisco in cause of the input from him DB Coach. or are they afraid of putting him in too early from his injury.

i can see a improve in our team but we need to stop failing at the endzone and score TDs not turnovers.

Go Jags, i Belive.

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You can't identify players if you don't have a concrete plan. We are going to be X on Offense an Y on Defense. We will draft BAP to meet our type of Offense and Defense. We will target free agents not by cost but based on what we want to do and what we can't get in the draft. We will retain our players that fit our plans.

Instead we are all over the place. I mean I guess we could say that they are trying to do this but solving quality TE acquisition with a trade after a few weeks of the season doesn't build confidence even if the outcome is better. You can see some improvement but you can tell key position groups are flat out overmatched.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

When we have had progress, break through and built success, we executed a plan.

Expansion - balance, compete and win the division, hard work
Del Rio - run the ball, win at home again and manage games

The only reason I don't like 2017 is because we had a great defense and a streaky offense. We built the defense but didn't really work the development on offense. They got tunnel vision and melted it down.

I like the treadmill analogy because it is just chasing and not executing a plan.

The plans we see strongly supported are facilities and pet projects. Putting the cart before the horse. No on field goals.

I hope there is a way out but Meyer and Baalke don't look the part. Have to wait again.

I don't know if I agree that they didn't have a plan for offense.

They drafted the LT in 2013, drafted a QB 3rd overall, two WRs in the 2n round, and a C in the 3rd round in 2014, and brought in Cann and Parnell in 2015.

I think the plan didn't work, mostly because of Bortles failure to develop into a good QB.

Lee was a guy, but Robinson wound up being a very good WR.  Add Hurns to the mix, and Bortles had targets with which to throw.

Bortles had a decent OL in front of him by 2017 when Joeckel was replaced at LT by Cam Robinson and Marrone became head coach.

They had an offensive plan, but it didn't work as hoped.  Conversely, the defensive plan exceeded all realistic expectations by Telvin Smith's development, the addition of Malik Jackson, Campbell and Bouye in free agency, and drafting Ramsey, Jack and Ngakoue in 2016.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

The jaguars are as good as a dangerous wounded animal.

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Exactly!

I describe this dynamic as drafting on a treadmill.  All of that effort expended only to not go anywhere.

It takes time to develop talent.  To actually find quality talent and develop it with coaching and experience, only to let them walk away in their primes makes it impossible to accumulate talent, have continuity or progress as a team.  It makes it difficult to have an experienced team or have experienced team leaders.  The team is always having to overcome inexperience.  When you let them walk and then botch things when drafting their replacement, it makes matters far worse.

When the Ramsey controversy flared up, everyone said we were better off without him, he could be replaced, he was a cancer, etc.  Same with Ngakoue.

Well are we better off without them?

Since Ramsey left, our pass defense has gone into the toilet.  We've highly drafted two players to ostensibly replace him:  CJ Henderson and Tyson Campbell.  After just over a year past drafting him 9th overall, Henderson has been traded for a 3rd rounder.  Campbell was taken in the 2nd round and has played horribly thus far, and has already missed a game or two with injury.  Our record since he last played a game for us (Tennessee in week 3 2019) is 6-28...1-20 since teams have had a full offseason to prepare for the team without him.   Conversely, since acquiring this cancer, the Rams went 6-3 in 2019 (finished 9-7 overall) , 10-6 last year, making the divisional round of the playoffs, and are considered a Super Bowl contender in the NFC.

In Ngakoue's last full season with the Jaguars, 2019, he had 8 sacks.  Josh Allen, then a rookie, was freed to have 10.5 sacks.  Since he was traded in 2020 along with Campbell, the pass rush has gone into the toilet.  Smoot was our leading sacker with 5.5.  In five games this year, we've accumulated only a handful of sacks.

It seems to me if Ramsey and Ngakoue were cancers, then the cure of purging them from the roster is worse than the disease itself.  Perhaps the next time someone offers us the snake oil of addition by subtraction of talented and productive players from the roster, we should give a hard pass.

Couldn't agree more. It takes time to adjust to the NFL and it takes years to become a dominant player in your position. There can be a number of reasons it takes time for a player to develop but we have this weird thing where the high picks are given a short leash but the late round and UDFA aren't. I mean take someone like Herndon, does anyone think hes suddenly going to become an elite CB but we keep him around while guys like Bouye are traded for peanuts.

If your constantly having to rebuild huge parts of your roster than your doing something wrong. A roster should be something you are adding to every year not replacing. Completely agree with the lack of experience and i ask myself who are all these young players learning from? Whos teaching them what to do and what not to do? 

I know Ramsey didn't do himself any favors with how he left but i always felt the 'locker room cancer' was a poor argument. Yeah he would trash talk and had an ego but he is an elite football player, i expect that. He always played hard for us and i never felt he didn't care. I think the whole situation could have gone differently if the FO had handled things differently but i also think the D just had enough of the bad O while they were playing at a very high level and then they would have the problems with Coughlin and co. 

Like you say, they have gone elsewhere and played well and these issues dont see them to be issues now. I kind of look at it like say you work hard in your job but your co-workers are lazy and keep messing up yet your boss blames everyone, how long before you go look for a new job? Especially if they arent fixing the actual problem?

I do also think we've become a bit too obsessed that the answer to all our problems are in the draft and draft picks will fix the problems. Time and again we see it hasnt and i get the argument of not having to trade or spend high in FA to get the top players but letting talent walk out the door for draft picks we hope can be as good just seems crazy to me.

(emphasis added)

I think the bold is an important point.

The draft IS the most critical component of any rebuilding effort.  But it becomes a moot point when

1. You miss on many draft picks, especially high ones.  As has been documented on this board, first round draft picks have a 50% chance of being a quality starter, so right off the bat, you are dealing with shaky odds.  Now factor in whether quality starter equals or surpasses in quality the good to great player you allowed to leave, then the odds get longer.  On top of that, you have a front office who may not be so good in evaluating talent, it gets worse.  The odds decrease considerably with each successive round.  Finally, because of the dearth of good players on the roster, players like Josh Allen who could be outstanding can't maximize their talent.

2.  When you DO hit on a draft pick, you let him go before even signing him to a second deal.  That makes it impossible to accumulate talent, build a  young nucleus or develop veteran leadership.  As a result, you are not only trying to overcome a tremendous talent deficit, but you are also having to overcome inexperience and a void in leadership.  Trying to win becomes even more difficult...akin to bailing out the Titanic with a wire mesh strainer.

The axiom to remember is "a bird in the hand beats two in the bush."  Keep the great, in their prime players for as long as possible instead of letting them walk, thinking they are easily replaceable.  Clearly they aren't...not by this team.

The best teams have been exploiting the lesser teams by pilfering superior talent from them for decades.  I wish we'd stop facilitating the theft by selling off our best player for a handful of not even magic beans.
.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I appreciate the counter point about the plan not working on offense around 2017. What do you do when the plan isn't working that will keep you doing what you like to do on offense and defense?

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Jags offense in 2017 was good enough to get the jags to the AFC championship game with the help of a good running game and an insane defensive. If only the jags would have had a decent back up qb or a starter. The jags still almost made it to the super bowl. We all know the entire story

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I appreciate the counter point about the plan not working on offense around 2017. What do you do when the plan isn't working that will keep you doing what you like to do on offense and defense?

Clearly the defense worked.  Aside from keeping guys like Ramsey and Ngakoue and Campbell, not much I would do differently defensively.  Maybe blitz more often/show more defensive variety, but I wouldn't mess with what worked.

Offensively?  I would have made more of an effort to keep Allen Robinson, though I know there was a sense he wanted out.  The team liked running the ball at that point.  Considering the need for a back that could convert short yardage and be a pounder, the fournette pick made some sense on some level, especially considering Bortles was still young.  I also made some advocacy for Marshon Lattimore, Jamal Adams or The S from Ohio State that went to the Colts, but given the presence of Mahomes and Watson on the draft board, taking the QB is clearly the call in hindsight, and find a power back later.  Or at the very least, you find a better veteran QB than Foles.  This would enable the Jaguars to improve the most important position on the team while still giving us the bruising presence at RB we needed.  I would have taken Will Hernandez instead of Taven Bryan in 2018 to improve the interior OL.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!