Ngakoue's production in his first 3 years was easily good enough to begin negotiations on a new contract prior to his 4th year.
If you look around at teams that have extended talented players before their final year, or at least begun earnest negotiation to get something done before the first contract expires - Ngakoue's situation fits for either approach. 

The problem was twofold. 

Ngakoue and his agent came in with an unrealistic ask - and the Jags FO came in initially with what the player's camp saw as an insulting offer. 

Eventually, if the leaked numbers are accurate (and we don't really know that), the Jags gave him a pretty good offer. That's where they reportedly ended up. Not where they started. 
He was completely disenfranchised by that point and was determined to seek greener pastures. 

In my mind, both parties failed at the negotiation table. 

It sucks - but the folks flailing about trying to act like we didn't lose a very valuable pass rusher and bashing the player are kidding themselves. Situational pass rushers have great value in this league, even with limited run defense skill. The guy has ended would-be game-winning drives with strip sacks multiple times in his career.
2022 may turn out to be the first year we've had a player come close to matching Ngakoue's pressure and sack numbers since he left. That is a significant loss.

Agreed completely. I don't take umbrage with Ngakoue. But if you expect to be paid like a top player, you either need to perform at that level or prove irreplaceable. While we've not had dominant pass rush in the years since his departure, I'd attribute that a lot more to losing guys like Calais and Ramsey than to us refusing to cave to his demands.

I think his history of relocation is showing that he either is not irreplaceable or is not performing equal to the pay he expects or signs for.

I hope he underperforms for the duration of his time in Indy

We're on the same page, but I do not think he's as easily replaceable as you and others do. No biggie. Lots of perspectives here. 

I attribute our lack of pass rush more to not having a direct counterpart for Allen than to the other losses, but losing Calais definitely hurt as he played that very role at times. 

Ngokoue/Calais/Allen was the perfect storm because it allowed them to use Ngakoue situationally and kick Calais outside for big end run fits. 

Anyway - the Jags ticked him off - he wanted too much. Over and done with. 
 Nothing to be done now but pray we have something with Allen and Walker working the edges.

---

Dude, this is taking things way too personally. What word would you use to describe someone who thinks they deserve top five money or refuses to play for a particular team/coach/owner/GM?

I used "ego". Sorry if that caused you internal strife.

You lamented that many fans think the team has no use for a guy with Yan's skills. I simply stated that the problem among fans might not be the skillset, but the player. Maybe it's the price tag?

If our goal is to find a guy who can rush the passer and rush the passer alone, my thinking is that we can easily find that around the league without having to revisit the drama we encountered with Yan. I'd like the bar to be a little higher than that, but at the very least, seeking help from different players may end up more affordable, younger, or less distracting, and wouldn't that be just as good if not better?

What word would I use?  Perhaps "Productive DE...poor businessman?"  Maybe "overly reliant on an overly aggressive agent?"  Maybe "a guy who took the negotiations too personally."  Since none of us were privy to the particulars of the private aspects of the negotiations, maybe "justified in being insulted."  It's not as if the team hasn't pissed off productive players before. 

If it were a matter of price that caused the venom towards Ngakoue, why no hostility towards Christian Kirk?  He reset the market for WRs more than Ngajoue would have for DEs...and Ngakoue at least had a pro bowl on his resume.  Kirk has no such accolades and you're (not you specifically, but the plural you...i.e. you guys who trash Ngakoue) fine with him being overpaid. Under the paradigm of overpaid players/players who want to be overpaid are bad people, Kirk should be walking around in sackcloth because he accepted that contract or being tarred and feathered by the fans when he hasn't even cracked 1000 yards receiving in a season.  For perspective, fans here shrugged when DJ Chark walked out of here for a $10 million deal in Detroit, and he has a Pro Bowl and a 100 yard season in his resume.  Kirk has a deal 4 years and anywhere from 72-84 million dollar deal  You guys should be absolutely frothing at the mouth over the Kirk deal, but you aren't.  Clearly it isn't about rewarding productivity.  It's particularly confusing considering the historical Ketchman fueled aversion to the WR position many of the same fans here have had over the years.   It's even more confusing when you hear fans lament the lack of loyalty players have to teams.  Ramsey and Yan actually produced for the Jaguars at premium positions.  Kirk hasn't.  Hopefully he WILL end up being an insanely productive player for us, but he hasn't done anything for the team yet. 

As for your thinking we can "easily" find what Yan offered as a player, how has that worked out?  As I pointed out, since Brackens retired, nobody else on the team has been anywhere near as productive a pass rusher as Ngakoue was for us.  Since Ngakoue left, nobody has produced what Ngakoue has produced for us.  We've spent NINE (9) premium picks (more considering the trades to get Harvey and Groves) drafting DEs/Edge rushers and counting that did not and have not given what Ngakoue provided.  We spent:

• a 1st round pick on Renaldo Wynn.  He wound up with 13.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#8 overall) on Derrick Harvey.  He wound up with 8 sacks for us
  
• 1 2nd round pick on Quentin Groves.  He had 2.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#10 overall) on Tyson Alualu.  He had 17 sacks for us over two contracts
  
• a 2nd round pick on Andre Branch,  He produced 14 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#3 overall)) on Dante Fowler-14 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick (#7 overall) on Josh Allen-20.5 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick on K'Lavon Chaisson0 2 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#1 overall) on Travon Walker
  

Combined...between NINE players, they have combined for a total of 91 sacks.  Ngakoue wound up with 37.5 in Jacksonville and has 55.5 career sacks by himself.  If Josh Allen is to match Ngakoue's 4 year totals here, he will need a 17.5 sack season this year.

In fairness, Walker just got here.  Though I have my doubts, he may end up being a productive, impact edge rusher.

 If the team had a proven track record of finding quality edge rushers, I could understand the mindset that Ngakoue was easily replaceable.  If Yan were past in his prime, I could see moving on from him.  If the team were flat up against the cap, I get moving on from him.  NONE of those conditions were met.  Given this team's track record of monumental failure at the position, your position is wholly untenable.  If you want the bar for the position to be set higher for this team, you start by keeping productive players like Ngakoue.

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

---

What word would I use?  Perhaps "Productive DE...poor businessman?"  Maybe "overly reliant on an overly aggressive agent?"  Maybe "a guy who took the negotiations too personally."  Since none of us were privy to the particulars of the private aspects of the negotiations, maybe "justified in being insulted."  It's not as if the team hasn't pissed off productive players before. 

If it were a matter of price that caused the venom towards Ngakoue, why no hostility towards Christian Kirk?  He reset the market for WRs more than Ngajoue would have for DEs...and Ngakoue at least had a pro bowl on his resume.  Kirk has no such accolades and you're (not you specifically, but the plural you...i.e. you guys who trash Ngakoue) fine with him being overpaid. Under the paradigm of overpaid players/players who want to be overpaid are bad people, Kirk should be walking around in sackcloth because he accepted that contract or being tarred and feathered by the fans when he hasn't even cracked 1000 yards receiving in a season.  For perspective, fans here shrugged when DJ Chark walked out of here for a $10 million deal in Detroit, and he has a Pro Bowl and a 100 yard season in his resume.  Kirk has a deal 4 years and anywhere from 72-84 million dollar deal  You guys should be absolutely frothing at the mouth over the Kirk deal, but you aren't.  Clearly it isn't about rewarding productivity.  It's particularly confusing considering the historical Ketchman fueled aversion to the WR position many of the same fans here have had over the years.   It's even more confusing when you hear fans lament the lack of loyalty players have to teams.  Ramsey and Yan actually produced for the Jaguars at premium positions.  Kirk hasn't.  Hopefully he WILL end up being an insanely productive player for us, but he hasn't done anything for the team yet. 

As for your thinking we can "easily" find what Yan offered as a player, how has that worked out?  As I pointed out, since Brackens retired, nobody else on the team has been anywhere near as productive a pass rusher as Ngakoue was for us.  Since Ngakoue left, nobody has produced what Ngakoue has produced for us.  We've spent NINE (9) premium picks (more considering the trades to get Harvey and Groves) drafting DEs/Edge rushers and counting that did not and have not given what Ngakoue provided.  We spent:

• a 1st round pick on Renaldo Wynn.  He wound up with 13.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#8 overall) on Derrick Harvey.  He wound up with 8 sacks for us
  
• 1 2nd round pick on Quentin Groves.  He had 2.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#10 overall) on Tyson Alualu.  He had 17 sacks for us over two contracts
  
• a 2nd round pick on Andre Branch,  He produced 14 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#3 overall)) on Dante Fowler-14 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick (#7 overall) on Josh Allen-20.5 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick on K'Lavon Chaisson0 2 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#1 overall) on Travon Walker
  

Combined...between NINE players, they have combined for a total of 91 sacks.  Ngakoue wound up with 37.5 in Jacksonville and has 55.5 career sacks by himself.  If Josh Allen is to match Ngakoue's 4 year totals here, he will need a 17.5 sack season this year.

In fairness, Walker just got here.  Though I have my doubts, he may end up being a productive, impact edge rusher.

 If the team had a proven track record of finding quality edge rushers, I could understand the mindset that Ngakoue was easily replaceable.  If Yan were past in his prime, I could see moving on from him.  If the team were flat up against the cap, I get moving on from him.  NONE of those conditions were met.  Given this team's track record of monumental failure at the position, your position is wholly untenable.  If you want the bar for the position to be set higher for this team, you start by keeping productive players like Ngakoue.

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

---

What word would I use?  Perhaps "Productive DE...poor businessman?"  Maybe "overly reliant on an overly aggressive agent?"  Maybe "a guy who took the negotiations too personally."  Since none of us were privy to the particulars of the private aspects of the negotiations, maybe "justified in being insulted."  It's not as if the team hasn't pissed off productive players before. 

If it were a matter of price that caused the venom towards Ngakoue, why no hostility towards Christian Kirk?  He reset the market for WRs more than Ngajoue would have for DEs...and Ngakoue at least had a pro bowl on his resume.  Kirk has no such accolades and you're (not you specifically, but the plural you...i.e. you guys who trash Ngakoue) fine with him being overpaid. Under the paradigm of overpaid players/players who want to be overpaid are bad people, Kirk should be walking around in sackcloth because he accepted that contract or being tarred and feathered by the fans when he hasn't even cracked 1000 yards receiving in a season.  For perspective, fans here shrugged when DJ Chark walked out of here for a $10 million deal in Detroit, and he has a Pro Bowl and a 100 yard season in his resume.  Kirk has a deal 4 years and anywhere from 72-84 million dollar deal  You guys should be absolutely frothing at the mouth over the Kirk deal, but you aren't.  Clearly it isn't about rewarding productivity.  It's particularly confusing considering the historical Ketchman fueled aversion to the WR position many of the same fans here have had over the years.   It's even more confusing when you hear fans lament the lack of loyalty players have to teams.  Ramsey and Yan actually produced for the Jaguars at premium positions.  Kirk hasn't.  Hopefully he WILL end up being an insanely productive player for us, but he hasn't done anything for the team yet. 

As for your thinking we can "easily" find what Yan offered as a player, how has that worked out?  As I pointed out, since Brackens retired, nobody else on the team has been anywhere near as productive a pass rusher as Ngakoue was for us.  Since Ngakoue left, nobody has produced what Ngakoue has produced for us.  We've spent NINE (9) premium picks (more considering the trades to get Harvey and Groves) drafting DEs/Edge rushers and counting that did not and have not given what Ngakoue provided.  We spent:

• a 1st round pick on Renaldo Wynn.  He wound up with 13.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#8 overall) on Derrick Harvey.  He wound up with 8 sacks for us
  
• 1 2nd round pick on Quentin Groves.  He had 2.5 sacks for us.
  
• a 1st round pick (#10 overall) on Tyson Alualu.  He had 17 sacks for us over two contracts
  
• a 2nd round pick on Andre Branch,  He produced 14 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#3 overall)) on Dante Fowler-14 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick (#7 overall) on Josh Allen-20.5 sacks for us
  
• a first round pick on K'Lavon Chaisson0 2 sacks.
  
• a 1st round pick (#1 overall) on Travon Walker
  

Combined...between NINE players, they have combined for a total of 91 sacks.  Ngakoue wound up with 37.5 in Jacksonville and has 55.5 career sacks by himself.  If Josh Allen is to match Ngakoue's 4 year totals here, he will need a 17.5 sack season this year.

In fairness, Walker just got here.  Though I have my doubts, he may end up being a productive, impact edge rusher.

 If the team had a proven track record of finding quality edge rushers, I could understand the mindset that Ngakoue was easily replaceable.  If Yan were past in his prime, I could see moving on from him.  If the team were flat up against the cap, I get moving on from him.  NONE of those conditions were met.  Given this team's track record of monumental failure at the position, your position is wholly untenable.  If you want the bar for the position to be set higher for this team, you start by keeping productive players like Ngakoue.

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

This board has a neat little feature where it can keep posts over a period of time.

Here is a link to a thread YOU created talking about the Kirk signing.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1456191

You are correct in asserting some posters hated the Kirk contract.

Interestingly, neither you, Mikey nor Yoda-the guys in this thread objecting to Ngakoue's asking price-were among them.

If he does nothing special, Kirk will make $2 million a year less than what Yan asked for.  If he maxes out his deal, he'll make a million a year more than Ngakoue's asking price.

All for a guy who never made a Pro bowl, never eclipsed 1000 yards in a season, and was never more than a 3rd option.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

I'd really like to see the deal that he walked away from. I'd be interested if it was lacking guarantees, overly front-loaded or some other red flag that led to him and his agent wanting to test the market instead. Unless the offer was fully guaranteed, I don't like thinking in terms of the max value, because especially with this team, it's rare that any player sees every dollar on the deal they sign.

---

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

This board has a neat little feature where it can keep posts over a period of time.

Here is a link to a thread YOU created talking about the Kirk signing.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1456191

You are correct in asserting some posters hated the Kirk contract.

Interestingly, neither you, Mikey nor Yoda-the guys in this thread objecting to Ngakoue's asking price-were among them.

If he does nothing special, Kirk will make $2 million a year less than what Yan asked for.  If he maxes out his deal, he'll make a million a year more than Ngakoue's asking price.

All for a guy who never made a Pro bowl, never eclipsed 1000 yards in a season, and was never more than a 3rd option.

slow your damn roll, Bullseye. Never have I taken umbrage here to what we offered, what he demanded, or that losing him was a net negative to our on-field performance.

Everything I've said was that if we were looking to replicate his specific lost performance, we can find it through other guys not named Yannick Ngakoue, and more than likely those guys would come cheaper (either financially or through locker room chemistry/lack of distractions) than had we opted to give things a second go with Yan.

Why are you so enamored with this one dude? He was here for a minute, he was no legend, move on already. I tried to let this thread die, a guy on his fourth team since he was here ain't worth this much attention. But if you want to drag me back in, I'll come back swinging.

---

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

I'd really like to see the deal that he walked away from. I'd be interested if it was lacking guarantees, overly front-loaded or some other red flag that led to him and his agent wanting to test the market instead. Unless the offer was fully guaranteed, I don't like thinking in terms of the max value, because especially with this team, it's rare that any player sees every dollar on the deal they sign.

Like the Kirk deal, it probably had a two-year out clause, and a guaranteed figure that was quite different from the max value potential

---

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

What were the "low ball" offers you speak?  Do you have  link with the numbers that were offered?

---

lol, was you not around during FA?  There were alot of people hated what we gave Kirk.  But when you sign a player you sign him for what you think he will do not what he has already done.  When Yawn lands on a team that team cant get rid of him fast enough lol.  In thinkful we didnt set the DE market with him and give him an open check book like you think we should of done.  The offer that was report was much more than he has ever got per year.  He got the worst advice from his agent that can remember and he will likely regret that decision as long as he lives and especially when he retires.  He lost around 40 mil for not taking a contract that a team was willing to overpay more than he was worth.  Its comical you always blame the team for losing him when we offered him way more than he was worth.  The reason we have been so bad since losing them is because we had Dave Caldwell, one of the worst GMs in recent memory and then brought in the worst HC of All Time, not because we Yannick and Ms. Ramsey. 30 other GMs could of built the core on this team with the picks we have had over the last 3 or 4 years.

This board has a neat little feature where it can keep posts over a period of time.

Here is a link to a thread YOU created talking about the Kirk signing.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1456191

You are correct in asserting some posters hated the Kirk contract.

Interestingly, neither you, Mikey nor Yoda-the guys in this thread objecting to Ngakoue's asking price-were among them.

If he does nothing special, Kirk will make $2 million a year less than what Yan asked for.  If he maxes out his deal, he'll make a million a year more than Ngakoue's asking price.

All for a guy who never made a Pro bowl, never eclipsed 1000 yards in a season, and was never more than a 3rd option.

I've said before i think we paid to much for Kirk.  The Yawn offer was 3 years ago and the market is higher now than it was 3 years ago.  Once again, you sign a player on what you think he will do and not what he's already done.  Its prerry clear they think he will have more if an impact here than he did an Arizona while Yawn gets traded yearly lol.  Give me Walker and Allen 2, 3 down players over a guy that is the worst at his position against the run and would of had to play 20 mil+.  You keep bringing up the Pro Bowl where he hasnn't been back since, so maybe it was good he got traded

---

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

What were the "low ball" offers you speak?  Do you have  link with the numbers that were offered?

LOL
You have no recollection of how this went down but just spout off at the mouth about it anyway

---

They offered Ngakoue a number commensurate with his pressures and sacks production at that time in the league. It was a little high because they wouldn’t leave him on the field in run looks as often as his peers making similar salaries, but they had the horses to fill run packages without him. It really didn’t matter. 

The actual problem was that they had already enraged the guy by not coming to the table initially, and then coming with lowball offers which pissed him off.
By the time they made him the supposed big offer (reportedly) he was already done and committed to trying his luck elsewhere. 

He was dumb not to take the money, but we have sorely missed his pass rush and Ramsey’s coverage. Thinking otherwise is just as dumb as Ngakoue turning down good money to stay with the Jags.

What were the "low ball" offers you speak?  Do you have  link with the numbers that were offered?

I know this was not addressed to me, but based purely on memory at the moment (and admittedly it isn't as good as it once was), the team offered Yan about 16 mill a year, and Yan wanted 20 Mil.  Having just checked, the Jaguars reportedly offered 19 million, but it was a shorter term deal than Ngakoue wanted.

https://jaguarswire.usatoday.com/2019/07...-annually/

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

This board has a neat little feature where it can keep posts over a period of time.

Here is a link to a thread YOU created talking about the Kirk signing.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1456191

You are correct in asserting some posters hated the Kirk contract.

Interestingly, neither you, Mikey nor Yoda-the guys in this thread objecting to Ngakoue's asking price-were among them.

If he does nothing special, Kirk will make $2 million a year less than what Yan asked for.  If he maxes out his deal, he'll make a million a year more than Ngakoue's asking price.

All for a guy who never made a Pro bowl, never eclipsed 1000 yards in a season, and was never more than a 3rd option.

slow your damn roll, Bullseye. Never have I taken umbrage here to what we offered, what he demanded, or that losing him was a net negative to our on-field performance.

Everything I've said was that if we were looking to replicate his specific lost performance, we can find it through other guys not named Yannick Ngakoue, and more than likely those guys would come cheaper (either financially or through locker room chemistry/lack of distractions) than had we opted to give things a second go with Yan.

Why are you so enamored with this one dude? He was here for a minute, he was no legend, move on already. I tried to let this thread die, a guy on his fourth team since he was here ain't worth this much attention. But if you want to drag me back in, I'll come back swinging.

(Emphasis added)

A few points of clarification are in order:

1.  As I said earlier, I did not introduce this thread into the discusson.  I am a participant in the thread, though.  I had zero intent to bring up Ngakoue until I saw the thread.  It's odd I am characterized as being "enamored with one dude" when someone else introduced him as a topic.

2.  Letting Ngakoue walk was not the only thing than rankled me.  I did not like Ramsey being dealt, either.  Were there things about Ramsey's behavior I didn't care for?  Sure.  But like Ngakoue, I think his production outweighed whatever bad behavior he presented...at least until there was public acrimony by both players in the effort to force the trade.  But it shouldn't have reached point where the players felt compelled to act out in such a way to force a trade.  I could even see letting Ngakoue go if the team re-signed Ramsey, or the team had a superstar QB on a second of third contract.  Managing to alienate and lose BOTH without the benefit of a star QB taking a chunk of space just made matters far worse.  The only benefit that came from letting both walk is it made the team bad enough to win the 1st overall pick in a draft that featured Trevor lawrence.  But even that benefit is at risk of mitigation if the team does not put enough help around Trevor Lawrence.  Getting Pederson and Scherff helped with that.  I liked the Engram signing.  But it's far from a given the team will give him enough help.

3.  You mentoned he wasn't a legend.  Perhaps he could have gone down as a team legend had they retained him for a second contract.  His four seasons here left him second in team history in sacks.  Since being traded, he's added another 18 or so sacks, including 10 last year.  For that matter, he SHOULD have been held in higher esteem by the fan base.  Smeenge is held in higher regard, and he didn't have Ngakoue's resume, which goes back to my point about fans not valuing pass rushers.  Nationally, this team's identity is one of ineptitude.  But that 2017 defense, for a while, was changing that.  As much hate as we get from the national media, people still talk about that defense with genuine admiration.  Ramsey and Ngakoue were two huge parts of that defense, and both were traded away without getting much of anything in return for either in the analysis, though maybe Etienne and Walker Little will change that dynamic some.  Trading away productive players before they can achieve the status of legend is not an argument against the player.

4.  As for you coming back swinging, I would expect nothing less from you.  You can more than hold your own in any discussion/debate.  If you wish to end your participation in this debate, I won't drag you back in.  When flgatorsandjags said lots of people objected to the Kirk contract, when I researched the response, I did not specifically recall anyone's responses but my own.  I just found it an interesting and neat coincidence that you guys' posts in that thread I posted all seemed to endorse the Kirk deal.  That said, your further participation in this and any thread is your choice.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

What were the "low ball" offers you speak?  Do you have  link with the numbers that were offered?

LOL
You have no recollection of how this went down but just spout off at the mouth about it anyway

Exactly, lol.  I knew you couldn't, throwing something at the wall hoping it sticks.  Bullseye posted a link, his "low ball" offers were something he's never made in his career.  He's never made 16 mil in a season, he's making 13 per year when contacts are higher.  Anything under 20 mil was a "low ball" offer

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What were the "low ball" offers you speak?  Do you have  link with the numbers that were offered?

I know this was not addressed to me, but based purely on memory at the moment (and admittedly it isn't as good as it once was), the team offered Yan about 16 mill a year, and Yan wanted 20 Mil.  Having just checked, the Jaguars reportedly offered 19 million, but it was a shorter term deal than Ngakoue wanted.

https://jaguarswire.usatoday.com/2019/07...-annually/

That "short" 3 year is longer than any deal he has gotten since being traded.

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LOL
You have no recollection of how this went down but just spout off at the mouth about it anyway

Exactly, lol.  I knew you couldn't, throwing something at the wall hoping it sticks.  Bullseye posted a link, his "low ball" offers were something he's never made in his career.  He's never made 16 mil in a season, he's making 13 per year when contacts are higher.  Anything under 20 mil was a "low ball" offer

Wut??

They began negotiations in the spring of 2019 and Ngakoue ended them in the late summer. 

You think they started out offering 19 mil per year???
This [BLEEP] went on for 4-5 months. 

C'mon man. Think. 

Ngakoue's SM accts all spring and summer made it crystal clear he was not only thinking bigger numbers but outright PISSED at their initial offers. 

We discussed this in threads here that summer. He was posting wacky tweets and IG stuff for months about all this stuff.

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I don’t think anyone would deny his pass rushing ability, it’s his run defense that gets him in trouble. His position doesn’t need to be great, but decent enough to a degree. He’s one of if not the worst DE vs the run off the edge. He’s a good rotational 3rd down DE, that’s about it.

1.  So you''d rather have Jared Odrick, Gotsis, or RRH?

2.  In 2020, the Jaguars finished 30th in rush yards allowed, 32nd in rush attempts allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed,  and 27th in yards per attempt allowed.  Last year, the team finished  23rd in rush yards allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed, and 16th in yards per attempt. Neither Ngakoue nor Ramsey were here, so the deficiencies against the run weren't on them.  In 2017, with Ngakoue as the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 21st in rush yards allowed and 26th in average.  In 2018, with Ngakoue the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 19th in rush yards allowed and 14th in yards per attempt.  Certainly not the 1985 Bears or 200 Ravens, or even the 2004-1006 Jaguars, but respectable.  That shows me Ngakoue was not solely to blame for this team's struggle against the run.

Uh, no, I'd rather the Jaguars picked a complete DE and paid them accordingly. Nothing you say changes the fact this team made the right choice to pass on Yann for his asking price, because no other team in the NFL values him as he values himself. 

And those stats are nice, I think you forget who was inside in 2017, Yann was not relied upon then whatsoever on run downs, thanks to guys like Calais. If Yann was the lynch-pin to that 2017 defense he'd be the one making 20 mil a year somewhere, he's not. You wish he was more than he is, but he's just a good rushing DE. You move TJ Watt to any defense and he will be a stud worth every penny of his contract, same with guys like Mack or JJ Watt in their primes.... Complete players, something Yann isn't. Yann has a place in the NFL, but it's not as a 20+ mil a year guy. He turned down 16.5 a year here, and he lost a lot of $ for it. Tough luck, seems he hasn't learned from his mistakes either going by his recent interviews.

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Exactly, lol.  I knew you couldn't, throwing something at the wall hoping it sticks.  Bullseye posted a link, his "low ball" offers were something he's never made in his career.  He's never made 16 mil in a season, he's making 13 per year when contacts are higher.  Anything under 20 mil was a "low ball" offer

Wut??

They began negotiations in the spring of 2019 and Ngakoue ended them in the late summer. 

You think they started out offering 19 mil per year???
This [BLEEP] went on for 4-5 months. 

C'mon man. Think. 

Ngakoue's SM accts all spring and summer made it crystal clear he was not only thinking bigger numbers but outright PISSED at their initial offers. 

We discussed this in threads here that summer. He was posting wacky tweets and IG stuff for months about all this stuff.

Oh I remember, the " low ball" offers were probably more than he has ever made.  Likely around 15 or 16 starting out if we ended up offering 19 mil with 50 mil guaranteed after the 1st 2 years.  Anything under 20 mil was considered low balling him lol.  If it was 50 after the 1st 2 then it was at least a 3 year deal.  Thats more years and more mil per than he has ever touched.  Not to mention the 40 mil he lost lol.  There is a reason he fired his agent right after.  He knew he was given horrible advise and way overvalued himself.

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1.  So you''d rather have Jared Odrick, Gotsis, or RRH?

2.  In 2020, the Jaguars finished 30th in rush yards allowed, 32nd in rush attempts allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed,  and 27th in yards per attempt allowed.  Last year, the team finished  23rd in rush yards allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed, and 16th in yards per attempt. Neither Ngakoue nor Ramsey were here, so the deficiencies against the run weren't on them.  In 2017, with Ngakoue as the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 21st in rush yards allowed and 26th in average.  In 2018, with Ngakoue the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 19th in rush yards allowed and 14th in yards per attempt.  Certainly not the 1985 Bears or 200 Ravens, or even the 2004-1006 Jaguars, but respectable.  That shows me Ngakoue was not solely to blame for this team's struggle against the run.

Uh, no, I'd rather the Jaguars picked a complete DE and paid them accordingly. Nothing you say changes the fact this team made the right choice to pass on Yann for his asking price, because no other team in the NFL values him as he values himself. 

And those stats are nice, I think you forget who was inside in 2017, Yann was not relied upon then whatsoever on run downs, thanks to guys like Calais. If Yann was the lynch-pin to that 2017 defense he'd be the one making 20 mil a year somewhere, he's not. You wish he was more than he is, but he's just a good rushing DE. You move TJ Watt to any defense and he will be a stud worth every penny of his contract, same with guys like Mack or JJ Watt in their primes.... Complete players, something Yann isn't. Yann has a place in the NFL, but it's not as a 20+ mil a year guy. He turned down 16.5 a year here, and he lost a lot of $ for it. Tough luck, seems he hasn't learned from his mistakes either going by his recent interviews.

He's not even making 15 a year and there is a reason he keeps getting traded.  He's a good pass rusher but you can't be a liability like he is.  He's great if you have a big lead and can just let him pin his ears back and rush the passer.  But if you are in a close game and have to respect the other teams run game he should be on the sidelines. I think he had a reality check though. He turned down 19 mil per year here and is making 13 mil per year now and it's 3 years later where players are getting paid more. He made 12 mil the year with the Vikings, not to mention he played that last year here on his rookie deal which was worth less than 1 mil so he lost over 18 mil that year

---

Wut??

They began negotiations in the spring of 2019 and Ngakoue ended them in the late summer. 

You think they started out offering 19 mil per year???
This [BLEEP] went on for 4-5 months. 

C'mon man. Think. 

Ngakoue's SM accts all spring and summer made it crystal clear he was not only thinking bigger numbers but outright PISSED at their initial offers. 

We discussed this in threads here that summer. He was posting wacky tweets and IG stuff for months about all this stuff.

Oh I remember, the " low ball" offers were probably more than he has ever made.  Likely around 15 or 16 starting out if we ended up offering 19 mil with 50 mil guaranteed after the 1st 2 years.  Anything under 20 mil was considered low balling him lol.  If it was 50 after the 1st 2 then it was at least a 3 year deal.  Thats more years and more mil per than he has ever touched.  Not to mention the 40 mil he lost lol.  There is a reason he fired his agent right after.  He knew he was given horrible advise and way overvalued himself.

---

Uh, no, I'd rather the Jaguars picked a complete DE and paid them accordingly. Nothing you say changes the fact this team made the right choice to pass on Yann for his asking price, because no other team in the NFL values him as he values himself. 

And those stats are nice, I think you forget who was inside in 2017, Yann was not relied upon then whatsoever on run downs, thanks to guys like Calais. If Yann was the lynch-pin to that 2017 defense he'd be the one making 20 mil a year somewhere, he's not. You wish he was more than he is, but he's just a good rushing DE. You move TJ Watt to any defense and he will be a stud worth every penny of his contract, same with guys like Mack or JJ Watt in their primes.... Complete players, something Yann isn't. Yann has a place in the NFL, but it's not as a 20+ mil a year guy. He turned down 16.5 a year here, and he lost a lot of $ for it. Tough luck, seems he hasn't learned from his mistakes either going by his recent interviews.

He's not even making 15 a year and there is a reason he keeps getting traded.  He's a good pass rusher but you can't be a liability like he is.  He's great if you have a big lead and can just let him pin his ears back and rush the passer.  But if you are in a close game and have to respect the other teams run game he should be on the sidelines.  I think he had a reality check though.  He turned down 19 mil per year here and is making 13 mil per year now and it's 3 years later where players are getting paid more.  He made 12 mil the year with the Vikings, not to mention he played that last year here on his rookie deal which was worth less than 1 mil so he lost over 18 mil that year

To the bolded:

You seriously believe that Yannick Ngakoue went from being this team-first guy who his coaches and teammates raved about to a disgruntled holdout spewing venom on social media because the Jags brass offered him 15 or 16 mil per year?? 

LOL

No, dude. I'd wager it took much more (less technically) than that to make him do such a complete 180. 
They had to have legit offered him some peanuts deal with a 2 year team out clause. I'd love to know how those negotiations began. I bet they legit insulted him for him to react like that. We'll probably never know the details. 

He was a fool to not take their final offer (if that leaked figure is actually true/accurate), but he was also wise to get away from this franchise at that time also. It all went downhill FAST. 

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To the blue:

Yannick's deal with the colts is actually a rather lucrative one. 
He got 21 million guaranteed AT SIGNING.  26 million guaranteed total. It's a fully guaranteed contract. 
You're also ignoring the fact that they traded their former #34 overall pick to get him. 
It's not a blockbuster deal for a pass rusher, but for a guy with his skill set it's good money he can retire comfortably on. 

And yes, you can be a good pass rusher and still be suspect vs the run. 
DL players rotate more than any other position on the field and coordinators create packages for different pass rushers commonly.  The Jags did it very successfully with him and any other team could too if they've got complimentary players to rotate. This is also why he gets traded. Not every team can pull that off, but some are willing to try if they think their DL roster has the horses. 

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Oh I remember, the " low ball" offers were probably more than he has ever made.  Likely around 15 or 16 starting out if we ended up offering 19 mil with 50 mil guaranteed after the 1st 2 years.  Anything under 20 mil was considered low balling him lol.  If it was 50 after the 1st 2 then it was at least a 3 year deal.  Thats more years and more mil per than he has ever touched.  Not to mention the 40 mil he lost lol.  There is a reason he fired his agent right after.  He knew he was given horrible advise and way overvalued himself.

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He's not even making 15 a year and there is a reason he keeps getting traded.  He's a good pass rusher but you can't be a liability like he is.  He's great if you have a big lead and can just let him pin his ears back and rush the passer.  But if you are in a close game and have to respect the other teams run game he should be on the sidelines.  I think he had a reality check though.  He turned down 19 mil per year here and is making 13 mil per year now and it's 3 years later where players are getting paid more.  He made 12 mil the year with the Vikings, not to mention he played that last year here on his rookie deal which was worth less than 1 mil so he lost over 18 mil that year

To the bolded:

You seriously believe that Yannick Ngakoue went from being this team-first guy who his coaches and teammates raved about to a disgruntled holdout spewing venom on social media because the Jags brass offered him 15 or 16 mil per year?? 

LOL

No, dude. I'd wager it took much more (less technically) than that to make him do such a complete 180. 
They had to have legit offered him some peanuts deal with a 2 year team out clause. I'd love to know how those negotiations began. I bet they legit insulted him for him to react like that. We'll probably never know the details. 

He was a fool to not take their final offer (if that leaked figure is actually true/accurate), but he was also wise to get away from this franchise at that time also. It all went downhill FAST. 

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To the blue:

Yannick's deal with the colts is actually a rather lucrative one. 
He got 21 million guaranteed AT SIGNING.  26 million guaranteed total. It's a fully guaranteed contract. 
You're also ignoring the fact that they traded their former #34 overall pick to get him. 
It's not a blockbuster deal for a pass rusher, but for a guy with his skill set it's good money he can retire comfortably on. 

And yes, you can be a good pass rusher and still be suspect vs the run. 
DL players rotate more than any other position on the field and coordinators create packages for different pass rushers commonly.  The Jags did it very successfully with him and any other team could too if they've got complimentary players to rotate. This is also why he gets traded. Not every team can pull that off, but some are willing to try if they think their DL roster has the horses. 

Absolutely, 15 or 16 mil was a slap in the face to him and his agent, that was an " insult".  He thought he was worth much more. 19 mil was a low ball offer and why negotiations got called off thankfully. If the reports were false you can bet money him or his agent would of came out and said it.  They wanted teams to know what type of contract his camp was looking for.  You can try to break down the contract and make it look good how ever you want but 26 mil for 2 years isn't good at all if you're one of the better pass rushers and only 27.  There is a few reasons for that and most know why.  The 34th pick means nothing, I haven't been impressed with Rock Ya Sin and their nickel corner beat him out which is why he got traded.

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1.  So you''d rather have Jared Odrick, Gotsis, or RRH?

2.  In 2020, the Jaguars finished 30th in rush yards allowed, 32nd in rush attempts allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed,  and 27th in yards per attempt allowed.  Last year, the team finished  23rd in rush yards allowed, 29th in rushing TDs allowed, and 16th in yards per attempt. Neither Ngakoue nor Ramsey were here, so the deficiencies against the run weren't on them.  In 2017, with Ngakoue as the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 21st in rush yards allowed and 26th in average.  In 2018, with Ngakoue the starter at RDE and Ramsey at CB, the team was 19th in rush yards allowed and 14th in yards per attempt.  Certainly not the 1985 Bears or 200 Ravens, or even the 2004-1006 Jaguars, but respectable.  That shows me Ngakoue was not solely to blame for this team's struggle against the run.

Uh, no, I'd rather the Jaguars picked a complete DE and paid them accordingly. Nothing you say changes the fact this team made the right choice to pass on Yann for his asking price, because no other team in the NFL values him as he values himself. 

And those stats are nice, I think you forget who was inside in 2017, Yann was not relied upon then whatsoever on run downs, thanks to guys like Calais. If Yann was the lynch-pin to that 2017 defense he'd be the one making 20 mil a year somewhere, he's not. You wish he was more than he is, but he's just a good rushing DE. You move TJ Watt to any defense and he will be a stud worth every penny of his contract, same with guys like Mack or JJ Watt in their primes.... Complete players, something Yann isn't. Yann has a place in the NFL, but it's not as a 20+ mil a year guy. He turned down 16.5 a year here, and he lost a lot of $ for it. Tough luck, seems he hasn't learned from his mistakes either going by his recent interviews.

Well what you are doing is letting the quest for the perfect be the enemy of the good, and by extension, be the ally of the mediocre at best.  We've already seen in our team's entire history, we've drafted all of two good DEs, and Ngakoue is one of them. We've seen the defense overall and the pass rush fall off dramatically since we traded Ngakoue. As I've pointed out, it's hilarious you (plural) demand absolute perfection from Ngakoue but not a guy like Kirk, who is even more egregiously overpaid than you assert Ngakoue wanted to be.

No, I did not forget Calais Campbell played inside in 2017.  Unlike you, however, I also did not forget that Ngakoue still led the team in sacks as a rookie with 8 in 2016...before Campbell arrived in Jacksonville.  In 2016, when Ramsey and Ngakoue arrived, the defense became a top 5 unit...again before Calais Campbell.  Ngakoue also produced a team leading 10 sacks last year for the Raiders...again without Calais Campbell.  If there is a guy who has proven to be unable to generate much impact without others, it's Josh Allen.  He had the 10 sack rookie yer when Ngakoue and Campbell were still on the team in 2019, but nothing much since then.  But truthfully, it's silly to argue that players are going to be more productive when they have better players around them.  Naturally that's going to be the case.  It would be that way with Yan, and it will be that way with josh Allen.  To use that as a negative against Ngakoue ignores the realities of football-namely that it's a team game.  As for not learning their lessons...I'd say that description best suits the Jaguars, don't you think?  Ramsey and Yan were still productive players for respectable teams when they were traded.  Both were on playoff teams last year.  Ngakoue led the Raiders in sacks.  Ramsey made another Pro bowl, made the playoffs, and this year won the Super Bowl (even though he had a bad game).  The Jaguars, on the other hand, saw their defense drop dramatically after both players were traded.  They went from a team about 2 minutes from the Super Bowl with them in 2017, to a middle of the pack team in 2018, to having the worst record in football the last two seasons running without them.  Trashing Ngakoue doesn't make the Jaguars right, no matter how desperately we want them to be right in all they do.  The record clearly shows more often than not, they are far from right, especially at the DE position.  This is why we've had one winning/playoff season since 2008.  That's why the fans started with the clown emojis.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!