I think it was crystal clear that TC had an old school approach of taking his "half-back" out of the game in the red zone and using a power back of some sort. The philosophy was oft discussed and criticized at the time. It couldn't be further from "conspiracy." 

BTW - Stacey Mack played under Tom Coughlin in Jax. You seem to be implying otherwise. 

*Fred missed five games in 2005 due to injury

MJD and his red zone skill certainly hurt Fred's legacy numbers. I still don't think it is an indicator that Fred wasn't good in the red zone.

I implied no such thing about Mack. I've been talking all along about the 3 seasons after Mack and Coughlin, where there wasn't anyone else with enough ability on the roster to make up for Taylor's inability to get in the end zone.

I don't know why your are fixated on Coughlin. Fred Taylor had his 4 most productive scoring seasons during his 5 seasons under Coughlin. Coughlin did everything he could to get Fred into the end zone, he just came to realize that there were players on the roster that were much better and much more consistent in short yardage situations than Fred.

He had 11 rushing TDs in 41 games he played in during the 3 seasons between Mack and MJD. That comes out to around 1 TD every 4 games. That stinks for a starting RB. Fred got the large majority of the carries during those three seasons when he played one of which he got the most in his career. He just struggled getting those one or two yards needed in crucial situations.

Fred was fine in the red zone. It was situations where it was goal to go and he would be facing a goal line defense that he bogged down. He couldn't get the penetration nor the push that Mack and MJD could, nor could he go over the top like James Stewart could.

These guys had the knack for it that Taylor didn't.

Fred, for being as freakishly athletic as he was seemed to have about a 5 inch vertical. Natrone Means was like that. At the time coaches liked a goal line player who could sky and get over the line to get the ball in the end zone. James Stewart and some of other guys we had we're just better at that particular thing.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Even if I concede that Fred was not great in short yardage situations, I don't think that one weakness in his game is disqualifying when he did so many other things so well. We already know he wasn't a first ballot hall of fame guy, but he should still get in.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Even if I concede that Fred was not great in short yardage situations,  I don't think that one weakness in his game is disqualifying when he did so many other things so well.  We already know he wasn't a first ballot hall of fame guy, but he should still get in.

Absolutely. To me, he and Tony should both be no brainers to get in. Tony's there, Fred should be next.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

I think it was crystal clear that TC had an old school approach of taking his "half-back" out of the game in the red zone and using a power back of some sort. The philosophy was oft discussed and criticized at the time. It couldn't be further from "conspiracy." 

BTW - Stacey Mack played under Tom Coughlin in Jax. You seem to be implying otherwise. 

*Fred missed five games in 2005 due to injury

MJD and his red zone skill certainly hurt Fred's legacy numbers. I still don't think it is an indicator that Fred wasn't good in the red zone.

I implied no such thing about Mack. I've been talking all along about the 3 seasons after Mack and Coughlin, where there wasn't anyone else with enough ability on the roster to make up for Taylor's inability to get in the end zone.

I don't know why your are fixated on Coughlin. Fred Taylor had his 4 most productive scoring seasons during his 5 seasons under Coughlin. Coughlin did everything he could to get Fred into the end zone, he just came to realize that there were players on the roster that were much better and much more consistent in short yardage situations than Fred.

He had 11 rushing TDs in 41 games he played in during the 3 seasons between Mack and MJD. That comes out to around 1 TD every 4 games. That stinks for a starting RB. Fred got the large majority of the carries during those three seasons when he played one of which he got the most in his career. He just struggled getting those one or two yards needed in crucial situations.

Fred was fine in the red zone. It was situations where it was goal to go and he would be facing a goal line defense that he bogged down. He couldn't get the penetration nor the push that Mack and MJD could, nor could he go over the top like James Stewart could.

These guys had the knack for it that Taylor didn't.

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

---

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

We are in the deadest of zones.

---

I implied no such thing about Mack. I've been talking all along about the 3 seasons after Mack and Coughlin, where there wasn't anyone else with enough ability on the roster to make up for Taylor's inability to get in the end zone.

I don't know why your are fixated on Coughlin. Fred Taylor had his 4 most productive scoring seasons during his 5 seasons under Coughlin. Coughlin did everything he could to get Fred into the end zone, he just came to realize that there were players on the roster that were much better and much more consistent in short yardage situations than Fred.

He had 11 rushing TDs in 41 games he played in during the 3 seasons between Mack and MJD. That comes out to around 1 TD every 4 games. That stinks for a starting RB. Fred got the large majority of the carries during those three seasons when he played one of which he got the most in his career. He just struggled getting those one or two yards needed in crucial situations.

Fred was fine in the red zone. It was situations where it was goal to go and he would be facing a goal line defense that he bogged down. He couldn't get the penetration nor the push that Mack and MJD could, nor could he go over the top like James Stewart could.

These guys had the knack for it that Taylor didn't.

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

Those 3 years just validate a short yardage and scoring issue he has had most of his career, that you attempted to blame on coaches pulling him, because he was the only option over that span and he didn't perform.

The coaches pulling him wasn't the cause of Fred having low TD numbers, it was the effect of Fred struggling in short yardage scoring situations which those three seasons, where there wasn't a viable replacement option for him, demonstrate.

Whether that will be something that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame I don't know, but I'm pretty sure his TD numbers compared to his peers is what kept him out of many pro bowls because scoring weighs heavily over yardage.

Averaging 5 TDs a year during an era where scoring 20+ was common and the all time records were being set and then reset by his peers, will probably be the biggest contributing factor if he never get voted in.

---

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

Those 3 years just validate a short yardage and scoring issue he has had most of his career, that you attempted to blame on coaches pulling him, because he was the only option over that span and he didn't perform.

The coaches pulling him wasn't the cause of Fred having low TD numbers, it was the effect of Fred struggling in short yardage scoring situations which those three seasons, where there wasn't a viable replacement option for him, demonstrate.

Whether that will be something that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame I don't know, but I'm pretty sure his TD numbers compared to his peers is what kept him out of many pro bowls because scoring weighs heavily over yardage.

Averaging 5 TDs a year during an era where scoring 20+ was common and the all time records were being set and then reset by his peers, will probably be the biggest contributing factor if he never get voted in.

1998

Fred scored 17 TDs as a rookie in 1998. He rushed for 1223 yards and 14 TDs. He also added 421 yards receiving and 3 TDs, with 1644 yards from scrimmage. Jags went 11-5.

Eddie George made the Pro Bowl in 1998. He rushed for 1294 yards and 5 TDs. He also added 310 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1604 yards from scrimmage. Oilers went 8-8.

*Taylor started 12 games in 1998
*George started 16 games in 1998
————

1999

Fred Taylor started 9 games and was statically the 10th best RB in the AFC. 

Most yards by a RB for 1999

Edgerrin James 1553 yards, 13 TD
Curtis Martin     1464 yards, 5 TD
Eddie George    1304 yards, 9 TD
Corey Dillon      1200 yards, 5 TD

Fred Taylor         732 yards, 6 TD
(scored more TDs than 2 of the top rushers while starting just 9 games)

—————

2000

Corey Dillon had 1435 yards rushing and 7 TDs. He added 158 yards receiving and 
0 receiving TDs, with 1593 yards from scrimmage.

Fred Taylor had 1399 yards rushing and 12 TDs. He added 240 yards receiving and 
2 TDs, with 1639 yards from scrimmage. 

*Dillon started 16 games
*Taylor started 13 games

* Taylor also had 9 straight games with 100 yards rushing.

—————

2002

This was the first year in Taylor’s career that he was able to play a full season and start all 16 games. Except wild numbers across the AFC for RB’s happened.

-Williams exploded for 1853 yards and 14 TDs

-Tomlinson put up his usual 1683 yards and 21 TDs

-Holmes, who had the best 3 years of his life rushed for 1615 yards in 2002 and scored 21 times on the ground. If Holmes doesn’t erupt for 2001, 2002, and 2003…his best season would have been in 1998 when he rushed for 1008 yards. 

Holmes rushed for 0 yards in 1997
                            1008 in 1998
                             506 in 1999
                             588 in 2000
                             892 in 2004
                             451 in 2005
                                 0 in 2006
                              137 in 2007

-Clinton Portis went for 1508 yards and 15 TD

-Travis Henry had 1438 yards and 13 TD

-Jamal Lewis rushed for 1327 yards and 6 TDs

*Fred Taylor rushed for 1314 yards and 8 TDs. Only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (Deuce McCallister, Tiki Barber)



————-

‘03 was a wild year for RBs across the league. It’s considered the best year ever for the RB position. Tomlinson rushed for 1645 yards and 13 TDs. He also added 100 catches for 725 yards and 4 TDs, with 2370 yards from scrimmage…and didn’t make the Pro Bowl. 

Holmes rushed for 1420 yards but scored 27 TDs and was voted All Pro and Pro Bowl. That same year, Jamal Lewis rushed for 2066 yards and 14 TDs and was voted to the Pro Bowl. 

Jamal Lewis rushed 2066 yards and 14 TDs

*Clinton Portis was selected to the Pro Bowl while rushing for 1591 yards and 14 TDs. He added 314 yards receiving and 0 TDs, with 1905 yards from scrimmage. 

*Taylor rushed for 1572 yards and 6 TDs. He added 370 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1942 yards from scrimmage.

*only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (McCallister and Ahman Green)
—————

2004

Only 2 RB’s in the NFC had more rushing yards than Fred Taylor. (Alexander, Tiki Barber). While in the AFC 7 other backs had more yards rushing. New players came on the scene with guys like Rudi Johnson and Ruben Drougnhs. 

That year Curtis Martin led the league in rushing with 1697 yards. 5 AFC RBs were selected to the Pro Bowl in 2004.

-Curtis Martin
-Corey Dillon
-Edgerrin James
-Rudi Johnson
-Ladanian Tomlinson 

4 of the 5 AFC backs that season rushed for 12 or more TDs.

*Taylor rushed for 2 TDs in 2004

————

In my opinion Taylor should have made the Pro Bowl in 1998 instead of Eddie George. In 2000 instead of Corey Dillon. In 2003 I will admit that I’m being biased but he had more rushing yards than Priest Holmes but Holmes scored 27 TDs. Also in 2003 Taylor had more yards from scrimmage than Portis, but Portis had more TDs.

And of course we got lucky in 2007 when Fast Willie Parker missed the Pro Bowl due to injury and Taylor got the nod.

Taylor could have possibly been a 4 time Pro Bowler. Who knows what could have happened in 1999 (started just 9 games) and 2001 (started just 2 games). 

I agree his TD totals are not good. When the Jags got inside the 10 yard line, Greg Jones, James Stewart, MJD, and Stacey Mack took a lot of TDs away from his totals.

---

The fragile Fred label was true early in his career. He missed a lot of games due to injury. With that said he had elite speed in his early years. There was a time that when he hit the open field he was gone because nobody was catching him. I believe he should be a hall of famer but he didn't get the respect when he was an active player. He should of made a handful of probowls but always seem to get snubbed. If he does get in it should be a long ways down the road because there are many players above him that are more deserving. Great Player and probably a top 2 or 3 Jaguar.

---

Those 3 years just validate a short yardage and scoring issue he has had most of his career, that you attempted to blame on coaches pulling him, because he was the only option over that span and he didn't perform.

The coaches pulling him wasn't the cause of Fred having low TD numbers, it was the effect of Fred struggling in short yardage scoring situations which those three seasons, where there wasn't a viable replacement option for him, demonstrate.

Whether that will be something that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame I don't know, but I'm pretty sure his TD numbers compared to his peers is what kept him out of many pro bowls because scoring weighs heavily over yardage.

Averaging 5 TDs a year during an era where scoring 20+ was common and the all time records were being set and then reset by his peers, will probably be the biggest contributing factor if he never get voted in.

1998

Fred scored 17 TDs as a rookie in 1998. He rushed for 1223 yards and 14 TDs. He also added 421 yards receiving and 3 TDs, with 1644 yards from scrimmage. Jags went 11-5.

Eddie George made the Pro Bowl in 1998. He rushed for 1294 yards and 5 TDs. He also added 310 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1604 yards from scrimmage. Oilers went 8-8.

*Taylor started 12 games in 1998
*George started 16 games in 1998
————

1999

Fred Taylor started 9 games and was statically the 10th best RB in the AFC. 

Most yards by a RB for 1999

Edgerrin James 1553 yards, 13 TD
Curtis Martin     1464 yards, 5 TD
Eddie George    1304 yards, 9 TD
Corey Dillon      1200 yards, 5 TD

Fred Taylor         732 yards, 6 TD
(scored more TDs than 2 of the top rushers while starting just 9 games)

—————

2000

Corey Dillon had 1435 yards rushing and 7 TDs. He added 158 yards receiving and 
0 receiving TDs, with 1593 yards from scrimmage.

Fred Taylor had 1399 yards rushing and 12 TDs. He added 240 yards receiving and 
2 TDs, with 1639 yards from scrimmage. 

*Dillon started 16 games
*Taylor started 13 games

* Taylor also had 9 straight games with 100 yards rushing.

—————

2002

This was the first year in Taylor’s career that he was able to play a full season and start all 16 games. Except wild numbers across the AFC for RB’s happened.

-Williams exploded for 1853 yards and 14 TDs

-Tomlinson put up his usual 1683 yards and 21 TDs

-Holmes, who had the best 3 years of his life rushed for 1615 yards in 2002 and scored 21 times on the ground. If Holmes doesn’t erupt for 2001, 2002, and 2003…his best season would have been in 1998 when he rushed for 1008 yards. 

Holmes rushed for 0 yards in 1997
                            1008 in 1998
                             506 in 1999
                             588 in 2000
                             892 in 2004
                             451 in 2005
                                 0 in 2006
                              137 in 2007

-Clinton Portis went for 1508 yards and 15 TD

-Travis Henry had 1438 yards and 13 TD

-Jamal Lewis rushed for 1327 yards and 6 TDs

*Fred Taylor rushed for 1314 yards and 8 TDs. Only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (Deuce McCallister, Tiki Barber)



————-

‘03 was a wild year for RBs across the league. It’s considered the best year ever for the RB position. Tomlinson rushed for 1645 yards and 13 TDs. He also added 100 catches for 725 yards and 4 TDs, with 2370 yards from scrimmage…and didn’t make the Pro Bowl. 

Holmes rushed for 1420 yards but scored 27 TDs and was voted All Pro and Pro Bowl. That same year, Jamal Lewis rushed for 2066 yards and 14 TDs and was voted to the Pro Bowl. 

Jamal Lewis rushed 2066 yards and 14 TDs

*Clinton Portis was selected to the Pro Bowl while rushing for 1591 yards and 14 TDs. He added 314 yards receiving and 0 TDs, with 1905 yards from scrimmage. 

*Taylor rushed for 1572 yards and 6 TDs. He added 370 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1942 yards from scrimmage.

*only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (McCallister and Ahman Green)
—————

2004

Only 2 RB’s in the NFC had more rushing yards than Fred Taylor. (Alexander, Tiki Barber). While in the AFC 7 other backs had more yards rushing. New players came on the scene with guys like Rudi Johnson and Ruben Drougnhs. 

That year Curtis Martin led the league in rushing with 1697 yards. 5 AFC RBs were selected to the Pro Bowl in 2004.

-Curtis Martin
-Corey Dillon
-Edgerrin James
-Rudi Johnson
-Ladanian Tomlinson 

4 of the 5 AFC backs that season rushed for 12 or more TDs.

*Taylor rushed for 2 TDs in 2004

————

In my opinion Taylor should have made the Pro Bowl in 1998 instead of Eddie George. In 2000 instead of Corey Dillon. In 2003 I will admit that I’m being biased but he had more rushing yards than Priest Holmes but Holmes scored 27 TDs. Also in 2003 Taylor had more yards from scrimmage than Portis, but Portis had more TDs.

And of course we got lucky in 2007 when Fast Willie Parker missed the Pro Bowl due to injury and Taylor got the nod.

Taylor could have possibly been a 4 time Pro Bowler. Who knows what could have happened in 1999 (started just 9 games) and 2001 (started just 2 games). 

I agree his TD totals are not good. When the Jags got inside the 10 yard line, Greg Jones, James Stewart, MJD, and Stacey Mack took a lot of TDs away from his totals.

I agree there were a couple of seasons you could make a strong case for Fred making the pro bowl, but the pro bowl voting has always been biased towards guys who have already been there. Unfortunately in 1998 and 2000 he was competing for a spot against two players who also had excellent seasons and were in the pro bowl the season before.

Stewart and Greg Jones actually didn't take many TDs from Fred. I went through the seasons they played together and between them they only scored 6 TDs in 5 seasons when there was a healthy Fred available and one of those TDs happened in the first game Fred ever played in and only had 6 carries and another one was on a 4th and 1 where Fred had gotten the chance on 3rd and 1 and couldn't get in and they gave Jones the 4th an 1 and he scored. All the rest of their TDs came either when Fred didn't play or was injured during the game and on the sideline.

Stacy Mack had 19 TDs with the Jags but it wasn't until 2002, after he had already scored 10 while Fred was out, that he was given the bulk of the short yard carries with a healthy Fred. So there was really only 1 season in Fred's first 8 that you could say he was denied scoring opportunities.

Fred was in his 9th season when MJD came along. MJD scored 13 rushing TDs his first season, but only 5 were 10 yards or less. In 2007 it was the same number 5. By 2008 Fred was done and you can't blame anyone for him having only 1 TD in 13 starts.

The reality is that outside of 2002 you can't really say anyone held him back from scoring TDs.

Fred scored a lot of TDs in his first few years largely because people underestimated his speed and took bad angles. Once the league saw him enough players started taking better angles and he couldn't out run the angles as often and his TD numbers dropped. Runs that used to become TDs just became nice gains and he would get caught before he got to the end zone.

---

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

We are in the deadest of zones.

Oh yeah...

---

"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

1998

Fred scored 17 TDs as a rookie in 1998. He rushed for 1223 yards and 14 TDs. He also added 421 yards receiving and 3 TDs, with 1644 yards from scrimmage. Jags went 11-5.

Eddie George made the Pro Bowl in 1998. He rushed for 1294 yards and 5 TDs. He also added 310 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1604 yards from scrimmage. Oilers went 8-8.

*Taylor started 12 games in 1998
*George started 16 games in 1998
————

1999

Fred Taylor started 9 games and was statically the 10th best RB in the AFC. 

Most yards by a RB for 1999

Edgerrin James 1553 yards, 13 TD
Curtis Martin     1464 yards, 5 TD
Eddie George    1304 yards, 9 TD
Corey Dillon      1200 yards, 5 TD

Fred Taylor         732 yards, 6 TD
(scored more TDs than 2 of the top rushers while starting just 9 games)

—————

2000

Corey Dillon had 1435 yards rushing and 7 TDs. He added 158 yards receiving and 
0 receiving TDs, with 1593 yards from scrimmage.

Fred Taylor had 1399 yards rushing and 12 TDs. He added 240 yards receiving and 
2 TDs, with 1639 yards from scrimmage. 

*Dillon started 16 games
*Taylor started 13 games

* Taylor also had 9 straight games with 100 yards rushing.

—————

2002

This was the first year in Taylor’s career that he was able to play a full season and start all 16 games. Except wild numbers across the AFC for RB’s happened.

-Williams exploded for 1853 yards and 14 TDs

-Tomlinson put up his usual 1683 yards and 21 TDs

-Holmes, who had the best 3 years of his life rushed for 1615 yards in 2002 and scored 21 times on the ground. If Holmes doesn’t erupt for 2001, 2002, and 2003…his best season would have been in 1998 when he rushed for 1008 yards. 

Holmes rushed for 0 yards in 1997
                            1008 in 1998
                             506 in 1999
                             588 in 2000
                             892 in 2004
                             451 in 2005
                                 0 in 2006
                              137 in 2007

-Clinton Portis went for 1508 yards and 15 TD

-Travis Henry had 1438 yards and 13 TD

-Jamal Lewis rushed for 1327 yards and 6 TDs

*Fred Taylor rushed for 1314 yards and 8 TDs. Only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (Deuce McCallister, Tiki Barber)



————-

‘03 was a wild year for RBs across the league. It’s considered the best year ever for the RB position. Tomlinson rushed for 1645 yards and 13 TDs. He also added 100 catches for 725 yards and 4 TDs, with 2370 yards from scrimmage…and didn’t make the Pro Bowl. 

Holmes rushed for 1420 yards but scored 27 TDs and was voted All Pro and Pro Bowl. That same year, Jamal Lewis rushed for 2066 yards and 14 TDs and was voted to the Pro Bowl. 

Jamal Lewis rushed 2066 yards and 14 TDs

*Clinton Portis was selected to the Pro Bowl while rushing for 1591 yards and 14 TDs. He added 314 yards receiving and 0 TDs, with 1905 yards from scrimmage. 

*Taylor rushed for 1572 yards and 6 TDs. He added 370 yards receiving and 1 TD, with 1942 yards from scrimmage.

*only 2 NFC Running Backs had more yards than Taylor. (McCallister and Ahman Green)
—————

2004

Only 2 RB’s in the NFC had more rushing yards than Fred Taylor. (Alexander, Tiki Barber). While in the AFC 7 other backs had more yards rushing. New players came on the scene with guys like Rudi Johnson and Ruben Drougnhs. 

That year Curtis Martin led the league in rushing with 1697 yards. 5 AFC RBs were selected to the Pro Bowl in 2004.

-Curtis Martin
-Corey Dillon
-Edgerrin James
-Rudi Johnson
-Ladanian Tomlinson 

4 of the 5 AFC backs that season rushed for 12 or more TDs.

*Taylor rushed for 2 TDs in 2004

————

In my opinion Taylor should have made the Pro Bowl in 1998 instead of Eddie George. In 2000 instead of Corey Dillon. In 2003 I will admit that I’m being biased but he had more rushing yards than Priest Holmes but Holmes scored 27 TDs. Also in 2003 Taylor had more yards from scrimmage than Portis, but Portis had more TDs.

And of course we got lucky in 2007 when Fast Willie Parker missed the Pro Bowl due to injury and Taylor got the nod.

Taylor could have possibly been a 4 time Pro Bowler. Who knows what could have happened in 1999 (started just 9 games) and 2001 (started just 2 games). 

I agree his TD totals are not good. When the Jags got inside the 10 yard line, Greg Jones, James Stewart, MJD, and Stacey Mack took a lot of TDs away from his totals.

I agree there were a couple of seasons you could make a strong case for Fred making the pro bowl, but the pro bowl voting has always been biased towards guys who have already been there. Unfortunately in 1998 and 2000 he was competing for a spot against two players who also had excellent seasons and were in the pro bowl the season before.

Stewart and Greg Jones actually didn't take many TDs from Fred. I went through the seasons they played together and between them they only scored 6 TDs in 5 seasons when there was a healthy Fred available and one of those TDs happened in the first game Fred ever played in and only had 6 carries and another one was on a 4th and 1 where Fred had gotten the chance on 3rd and 1 and couldn't get in and they gave Jones the 4th an 1 and he scored. All the rest of their TDs came either when Fred didn't play or was injured during the game and on the sideline.

Stacy Mack had 19 TDs with the Jags but it wasn't until 2002, after he had already scored 10 while Fred was out, that he was given the bulk of the short yard carries with a healthy Fred. So there was really only 1 season in Fred's first 8 that you could say he was denied scoring opportunities.

Fred was in his 9th season when MJD came along. MJD scored 13 rushing TDs his first season, but only 5 were 10 yards or less. In 2007 it was the same number 5. By 2008 Fred was done and you can't blame anyone for him having only 1 TD in 13 starts.

The reality is that outside of 2002 you can't really say anyone held him back from scoring TDs.

Fred scored a lot of TDs in his first few years largely because people underestimated his speed and took bad angles. Once the league saw him enough players started taking better angles and he couldn't out run the angles as often and his TD numbers dropped. Runs that used to become TDs just became nice gains and he would get caught before he got to the end zone.

I’ll take your word on it. Awesome break down. I also think he is a hall of famer and the reality is he will have to wait a very long time.  

55 missed games…

---

Fred is everywhere now. He did an interview with Tomlin with Ryan Clark not too long ago. Hopefully all the media work will get him in the HOF.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

The podcast that he, Channing Tatum and Ryan Clark do together is called the pivot. 

It's one of the most well-produced podcasts out there and they do a great job of hosting it. The lists of guests they have had is REALLY impressive and they get them to open up with some great content. 

The stuff from that pod is getting Fred and Ryan into lots of other media outlets.

I too hope it helps his visibility and his HOF chances as a result.

---

I don't need stats. I watched every game he played as a jag.

But if you want to use stats, Stacey Mack got a 1st down or TD on about 30% of his carries for his career. Fred taylor was under 24%. MJD was just under 27%. In 2002 Mack scored more TDs and only 9 less 1st downs on 1/3 of the carries that Taylor had.

Taylor had no torque. He didn't have power until he got his RPMs up. If Taylor got to the second level, he was the most dangerous runner in the game. He just wasn't very good at pushing his way through the line of scrimmage. If he were better at that, he would have had 2000 yrd seasons and be a first ballot HOF.

Give Taylor an opening, he would gash you. If there was no opening, he would usually go down at the LOS.

He just was never that guy who could put his head down and fall forward for a couple of yards very often. Fast twitch muscle guy .

He was better than 98% of backs at seeing/finding an opening -  which diminishes much of the critique above the bolded in that post.

Would be super weird if Channing Tatum did a podcast with Fred and Ryan.

---

The podcast that he, Channing Tatum and Ryan Clark do together is called the pivot. 

It's one of the most well-produced podcasts out there and they do a great job of hosting it. The lists of guests they have had is REALLY impressive and they get them to open up with some great content. 

The stuff from that pod is getting Fred and Ryan into lots of other media outlets.

I too hope it helps his visibility and his HOF chances as a result.

---

He was better than 98% of backs at seeing/finding an opening -  which diminishes much of the critique above the bolded in that post.

Would be super weird if Channing Tatum did a podcast with Fred and Ryan.

LOL

Yeah, I wouldn't rule it out, but I meant Channing Crowder. 
And it really is a good podcast.

---

Wow.

Goal line situations over a three year stretch are now the gripe to keep him out of the hall?

Those 3 years just validate a short yardage and scoring issue he has had most of his career, that you attempted to blame on coaches pulling him, because he was the only option over that span and he didn't perform.

The coaches pulling him wasn't the cause of Fred having low TD numbers, it was the effect of Fred struggling in short yardage scoring situations which those three seasons, where there wasn't a viable replacement option for him, demonstrate.

Whether that will be something that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame I don't know, but I'm pretty sure his TD numbers compared to his peers is what kept him out of many pro bowls because scoring weighs heavily over yardage.

Averaging 5 TDs a year during an era where scoring 20+ was common and the all time records were being set and then reset by his peers, will probably be the biggest contributing factor if he never get voted in.

I blamed Coughlin for pulling him from red zone opportunities because he did. 

You contend it was because of Fred's lack of ability at the goal line  - and I disagree. 
Fred complained internally at the time about this (I heard it through someone that saw Fred every day in the bldg)  and it was discussed openly among fans and local media at the time as well.
I recall it clearly. 

I'll sort through the season totals of red zone snaps if I can find them and see if there's data to support this one way or the other.

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Those 3 years just validate a short yardage and scoring issue he has had most of his career, that you attempted to blame on coaches pulling him, because he was the only option over that span and he didn't perform.

The coaches pulling him wasn't the cause of Fred having low TD numbers, it was the effect of Fred struggling in short yardage scoring situations which those three seasons, where there wasn't a viable replacement option for him, demonstrate.

Whether that will be something that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame I don't know, but I'm pretty sure his TD numbers compared to his peers is what kept him out of many pro bowls because scoring weighs heavily over yardage.

Averaging 5 TDs a year during an era where scoring 20+ was common and the all time records were being set and then reset by his peers, will probably be the biggest contributing factor if he never get voted in.

I blamed Coughlin for pulling him from red zone opportunities because he did. 

You contend it was because of Fred's lack of ability at the goal line  - and I disagree. 
Fred complained internally at the time about this (I heard it through someone that saw Fred every day in the bldg)  and it was discussed openly among fans and local media at the time as well.
I recall it clearly. 

I'll sort through the season totals of red zone snaps if I can find them and see if there's data to support this one way or the other.

I broke everything down. There is only 1 season you can say Coughlin (or any coach for that matter) pulled Fred in short yardage scoring situations. Taylor is the one who held Taylor back.

I'm sorry reality doesn't match your narrative.

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I blamed Coughlin for pulling him from red zone opportunities because he did. 

You contend it was because of Fred's lack of ability at the goal line  - and I disagree. 
Fred complained internally at the time about this (I heard it through someone that saw Fred every day in the bldg)  and it was discussed openly among fans and local media at the time as well.
I recall it clearly. 

I'll sort through the season totals of red zone snaps if I can find them and see if there's data to support this one way or the other.

I broke everything down. There is only 1 season you can say Coughlin (or any coach for that matter) pulled Fred in short yardage scoring situations. Taylor is the one who held Taylor back.

I'm sorry reality doesn't match your narrative.

You counted up some TDs from other backs. If that's "broke everything down" in your book, well then, OK I guess. But it doesn't paint the whole picture. 

You didn't analyze red zone opportunities and which percentage of them Coughlin pulled Taylor from the line-up, which is what I mentioned looking into when I've got the time.

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I broke everything down. There is only 1 season you can say Coughlin (or any coach for that matter) pulled Fred in short yardage scoring situations. Taylor is the one who held Taylor back.

I'm sorry reality doesn't match your narrative.

You counted up some TDs from other backs. If that's "broke everything down" in your book, well then, OK I guess. But it doesn't paint the whole picture. 

You didn't analyze red zone opportunities and which percentage of them Coughlin pulled Taylor from the line-up, which is what I mentioned looking into when I've got the time.

No one is talking about red zone opportunities, that is something applicable to a QB's TD numbers not a RB. It's a pretty ignorant argument to try to apply that to a RB. It's like saying you are holding a QB scoring numbers back because coach is more likely to run the ball from inside the 5 yard line.

Short yardage scoring situations apply to a RB and Fred was pulled only occasionally in short yardage scoring situations outside of 2002. Not uncommon practice throughout the league that other RB's get the opportunity in a short yardage scoring situation especially after your main RB gets no gain or takes a loss which their are multiple occasions of that happening to Fred. I know this because unlike you, I took the time to research.

The fact is when healthy, Fred by far received the majority of the carries every year and for every coach he played for while in Jax. The fact that he didn't convert all those carries into scores isn't on the coaches.

If you don't like my analysis, feel free to base anything you are saying on something besides pure conjecture and third person hearsay from an unsubstantiated source on what was said behind the scenes.

It's pretty idiotic that you still keep blaming Coughlin under whom Fred had his 4 best scoring seasons and one of those seasons he only played in 10 games with 9 starts. This just shows how little knowledge you actually have on the situation.

Until you take the time to do some actual research, I am the only producing any tangible facts and those facts aren't supporting your conjecture.

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Look at the stats, then look at the film.

12,000 yards, 4.6 yards per carry.
The film is spectacular.

That guy should be in the Hall of Fame.

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Look at the stats, then look at the film. 

12,000 yards, 4.6 yards per carry. 
The film is spectacular. 

That guy should be in the Hall of Fame.

"Halls of Fame are not defined by who gets in, but who doesn't" I dunno if Vic was quoting someone else on that line, but it always spoke to me.

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You counted up some TDs from other backs. If that's "broke everything down" in your book, well then, OK I guess. But it doesn't paint the whole picture. 

You didn't analyze red zone opportunities and which percentage of them Coughlin pulled Taylor from the line-up, which is what I mentioned looking into when I've got the time.

No one is talking about red zone opportunities, that is something applicable to a QB's TD numbers not a RB. It's a pretty ignorant argument to try to apply that to a RB. It's like saying you are holding a QB scoring numbers back because coach is more likely to run the ball from inside the 5 yard line.

Short yardage scoring situations apply to a RB and Fred was pulled only occasionally in short yardage scoring situations outside of 2002. Not uncommon practice throughout the league that other RB's get the opportunity in a short yardage scoring situation especially after your main RB gets no gain or takes a loss which their are multiple occasions of that happening to Fred. I know this because unlike you, I took the time to research.

The fact is when healthy, Fred by far received the majority of the carries every year and for every coach he played for while in Jax. The fact that he didn't convert all those carries into scores isn't on the coaches.

If you don't like my analysis, feel free to base anything you are saying on something besides pure conjecture and third person hearsay from an unsubstantiated source on what was said behind the scenes.

It's pretty idiotic that you still keep blaming Coughlin under whom Fred had his 4 best scoring seasons and one of those seasons he only played in 10 games with 9 starts. This just shows how little knowledge you actually have on the situation.

Until you take the time to do some actual research, I am the only producing any tangible facts and those facts aren't supporting your conjecture.

OK 

I had 15 minutes to look this up for you. Lots to unpack here.



1. Red Zone opportunities are very relevant here. (red zone touches/attempts are really moreso what I'm referring to)
Backs with more touches in the RZ produce more TDs.  Robbing a back of those opportunities keeps their TD numbers mitigated and leads to fans cobbling together ill informed opinions about the back's goal line prowess.  For example, your own.

2. I've already noted the correction about the degree of Coughlin's involvement but I'll make it clear for you momentarily how it was indeed Tom Coughlin who began this "narrative" among fans and players that Taylor shouldn't be denied RZ touches.

3. This is important to understand:
From 1998-2007 (Fred's prime)  there were only three seasons that Fred Taylor received the clear lion's share of red zone touches among the running backs on the roster.
Those seasons were 1998, 2000 and  2003

1n 1998 Fred had 45 touches in the red zone and that produced 11 RZ rushing TDS and 2 RZ receiving TDs.  (13 of his 14 TDs that season came from these RZ touches)
In 2000 Fred had 55 RZ touches. Those touches produced 9 rushing TDs and 2 receiving TDs. (11 of his 12 TDs that season.
You will notice that 1999 was skipped. There is good reason. 1999 was the year that Coughlin took away Fred's RZ touches and without question began the "narrative" that I have merely recalled here. Again - I'm not sure why you don't recall it as it was a popular debate at the time among fans and local media.
Coughlin gave Fred 29 RZ touches that year and gave 61 RZ touches to the other backs, primarily James Stewart. Fred only produced 6 TDs that season as a result.

4. This should be at least beginning to illustrate to you why red zone attempts/touches are important for analyzing Fred's career statistics - and it should be beginning to paint a picture of a negative trend that I will elaborate on further, statistically.

Here are the RZ rush attempts for Taylor and his RB teammates from 2002-2007 (2001 was an injury year) :

2002:
Fred - 35 attempts  ,  Stacey Mack 28 attempts,  QBs 9 att
2003:
Fred - 52 attempts , others 23 attempts, I won't bother with QB att each year - it ranges from 7-16 att every year
2004:
Fred - 29 att , other RBs 29 att
2005:
Fred - 26  - other RBs 38
2006: 
Fred - 32 - other RBs  - 39
2007: 
Fred - 20 att - other RBs - 68



5. In the 3 seasons that Fred Taylor was trusted with the work load in the RZ, he averaged 10.6 TD per season. And most of them came from RZ opportunities. 
He'd have over 90 TDs on his career by extrapolating that to his healthy seasons. (instead of 66) 
A common HOF RB that Fred is oft-compared to, Curtis Martin, has exactly 90 career TDs. 

6. Curtis Martin, by comparison, in his prime with the NYJ, had these greatly increased opportunities in the redzone:

1998:  66 att - other backs 15 att
1999: 52 att - other backs - 5 att
2000: 47 att - other backs - 10 att
2001: 51 att, other backs -  7 att
2002: 40 att, other backs 21
2003: 31 att, other backs 14
2004: 49 att, other backs 16

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