I mean considering how little we actually made use of our backup RB and TE added with the fact that two of our best players are starting in those positions I don't think those were exactly holes.

If Balke and Doug thought that they should be fired lol.

Baalke.

No he dosen't deserve the extra a. Leave me alone LOL

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Well, they were committed to running ZBS and Doug clearly asked for athletic, mobile linemen. Neither of those guys fit the common traits for that scheme. 

Personally - I don't think they were wise to limit themselves that way - but I 100% believe that's what happened. 

I also don't think they selected Bigsby or Strange because they were the highest grades on their board at the time either. I think they reached to plug in perceived holes in the roster and they failed (at least in the short term - both players may yet succeed)

I mean considering how little we actually made use of our backup RB and TE added with the fact that two of our best players are starting in those positions I don't think those were exactly holes.

If Balke and Doug thought that they should be fired lol.

You seem to have forgotten the months long offseason narrative that a spellback and short yardage specialist were desired - and that an inline TE who was also an actual receiving threat would unlock our passing game. 

Literally every talking head in Jag land went on about this ad nauseam. 

It all made sense at the time - but no one saw THAT tight end coming so early nor did we see RB so early on. 
 
Ironically only around 30% of the fanbase was voting for OL help at the time besides the obvious need to replace RT when Taylor was scooped up. And now everyone and their brother acts like it was the worlds greatest tragedy that we didn't do more at G/C. LOL Most of the fanbase didn't see it. "Fortner will get better, and Bartch will be healthy" was the common refrain. 

Somehow - Doug/Trent thought that line would work and they thought a TE and RB would be more valuable than IOL. 
If one of them didn't believe it, he failed to convince his counterpart.

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I mean considering how little we actually made use of our backup RB and TE added with the fact that two of our best players are starting in those positions I don't think those were exactly holes.

If Balke and Doug thought that they should be fired lol.

You seem to have forgotten the months long offseason narrative that a spellback and short yardage specialist were desired - and that an inline TE who was also an actual receiving threat would unlock our passing game. 

Literally every talking head in Jag land went on about this ad nauseam. 

It all made sense at the time - but no one saw THAT tight end coming so early nor did we see RB so early on. 
 
Ironically only around 30% of the fanbase was voting for OL help at the time besides the obvious need to replace RT when Taylor was scooped up. And now everyone and their brother acts like it was the worlds greatest tragedy that we didn't do more at G/C. LOL Most of the fanbase didn't see it. "Fortner will get better, and Bartch will be healthy" was the common refrain. 

Somehow - Doug/Trent thought that line would work and they thought a TE and RB would be more valuable than IOL. 
If one of them didn't believe it, he failed to convince his counterpart.

Can't say I heard the media talking about it because I wasn't really listening to much sports news stuff last year but I do remember asking people on this board why the hell they were mocking us to take a TE in the first round when my biggest concern was replacing herndon at NB and getting interior linemen.


For what it's worth, I wouldn't have even been that mad at taking RB/TE in the 2nd/3rd if they turned out to actually be worth the picks.. but even so I just don't see how you don't go C/G/DT/NB/T before even thinking about a RB/TE in that scenario (at the time I believe we didn't have a clue how long Robinson was going to be suspended) and with the loss of Taylor I assumed 2 tackles woulda been a good idea, even if one was just a project incase Little sucked.

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Ridley ain’t coming back, just listen to his presser; I think we need to keep Zay and draft a WR in round 1 or 2

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Ridley ain’t coming back, just listen to his presser; I think we need to keep Zay and draft a WR in round 1 or 2

Remind me, what picks do we lose if we just straight up let him walk? I do not remember.

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BPA is the best way to draft imo when your actual board is somewhat accurate and worth a [BLEEP].  They have proven their board sucks year after year.  They had Strange and Bigsby higher on their board than Torrence and Jones. That's just 1 of many examples in the last few years.  Their board sucks!   Maybe they can actually come up with a good bigboard this year

Well, they were committed to running ZBS and Doug clearly asked for athletic, mobile linemen. Neither of those guys fit the common traits for that scheme. 

Personally - I don't think they were wise to limit themselves that way - but I 100% believe that's what happened. 

I also don't think they selected Bigsby or Strange because they were the highest grades on their board at the time either. I think they reached to plug in perceived holes in the roster and they failed (at least in the short term - both players may yet succeed)

The Bills run the same zone blocking scheme that we do and they had no problem taking Torrence and he has fit right in and won the starting spot in training camp so im not buying that.

  I do think they would be better in a power scheme but they are both just good lineman and can be successful in both.  I'm not sure what type of scheme the Browns run but Jones can maul people.  If you can maul people you will clear out space, those 2 players are good enough to be good in any scheme.  Cam Robinson is best in a power scheme yet the extended him.  He had a really good rookie year and we led the league in rushing that year.  

  I think they absolutely had those 2 higher on their board and they specifically said they weren't going to draft for need and it showed.  Oline was a much bigger need than RB and TE.  Their bigboard just sucks is what it boils down to.

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Well, they were committed to running ZBS and Doug clearly asked for athletic, mobile linemen. Neither of those guys fit the common traits for that scheme. 

Personally - I don't think they were wise to limit themselves that way - but I 100% believe that's what happened. 

I also don't think they selected Bigsby or Strange because they were the highest grades on their board at the time either. I think they reached to plug in perceived holes in the roster and they failed (at least in the short term - both players may yet succeed)

The Bills run the same zone blocking scheme that we do and they had no problem taking Torrence and he has fit right in and won the starting spot in training camp so im not buying that.

  I do think they would be better in a power scheme but they are both just good lineman and can be successful in both.  I'm not sure what type of scheme the Browns run but Jones can maul people.  If you can maul people you will clear out space, those 2 players are good enough to be good in any scheme.  Cam Robinson is best in a power scheme yet the extended him.  He had a really good rookie year and we led the league in rushing that year.  

  I think they absolutely had those 2 higher on their board and they specifically said they weren't going to draft for need and it showed.  Oline was a much bigger need than RB and TE.  Their bigboard just sucks is what it boils down to.

You can convince yourself that Doug and Baalke haven't drafted traits in OL if you want but you literally just sat here and pointed out that they passed on a 364 pound guard and a 375 pound tackle when Baalke JUST ACQUIRED a tackle who weighs SIXTY pounds less and a guard who weighs FIFTY pounds less. 

OK?


Seems pretty obvious they are after something different than those guys you think they just passed on due to grade. 
It was traits. 


Also - The bills run more power than we do. They roster a FB for Pete's sake. Think about that. 
They have a line that finished #10 in run black win rate while ours finished 27th. 

They weren't afraid to go after big guys and still utilize elements of a ZBS.
Our staff had other plans.

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The Bills run the same zone blocking scheme that we do and they had no problem taking Torrence and he has fit right in and won the starting spot in training camp so im not buying that.

  I do think they would be better in a power scheme but they are both just good lineman and can be successful in both.  I'm not sure what type of scheme the Browns run but Jones can maul people.  If you can maul people you will clear out space, those 2 players are good enough to be good in any scheme.  Cam Robinson is best in a power scheme yet the extended him.  He had a really good rookie year and we led the league in rushing that year.  

  I think they absolutely had those 2 higher on their board and they specifically said they weren't going to draft for need and it showed.  Oline was a much bigger need than RB and TE.  Their bigboard just sucks is what it boils down to.

You can convince yourself that Doug and Baalke haven't drafted traits in OL if you want but you literally just sat here and pointed out that they passed on a 364 pound guard and a 375 pound tackle when Baalke JUST ACQUIRED a tackle who weighs SIXTY pounds less and a guard who weighs FIFTY pounds less. 

OK?


Seems pretty obvious they are after something different than those guys you think they just passed on due to grade. 
It was traits. 


Also - The bills run more power than we do. They roster a FB for Pete's sake. Think about that. 
They have a line that finished #10 in run black win rate while ours finished 27th. 

They weren't afraid to go after big guys and still utilize elements of a ZBS.
Our staff had other plans.

Why did they draft a FB last year?  If they feel that way it really narrows it down and the odds are less likely you are getting the best player.  You could get very lucky if the draft falls perfectly for you but its much less likely.  They need to think out of the box and just draft the best lineman and best players and adjust the system to what fits to the those players strengths. Be a little flexible instead of so white and black, that's what the great coaches and GMs do.

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You can convince yourself that Doug and Baalke haven't drafted traits in OL if you want but you literally just sat here and pointed out that they passed on a 364 pound guard and a 375 pound tackle when Baalke JUST ACQUIRED a tackle who weighs SIXTY pounds less and a guard who weighs FIFTY pounds less. 

OK?


Seems pretty obvious they are after something different than those guys you think they just passed on due to grade. 
It was traits. 


Also - The bills run more power than we do. They roster a FB for Pete's sake. Think about that. 
They have a line that finished #10 in run black win rate while ours finished 27th. 

They weren't afraid to go after big guys and still utilize elements of a ZBS.
Our staff had other plans.

Why did they draft a FB last year?  If they feel that way it really narrows it down and the odds are less likely you are getting the best player.  You could get very lucky if the draft falls perfectly for you but its much less likely.  They need to think out of the box and just draft the best lineman and best players and adjust the system to what fits to the those players strengths. Be a little flexible instead of so white and black, that's what the great coaches and GMs do.

The bolded we agree on. 

You think they didn't do this in the 2023 draft regarding OL because their board was all screwed up.

I think they passed on those 2 linemen because they fall outside of a parameter of measurable they deemed acceptable. They were deemed unworthy due to traits not some BAP grade regardless of measurable. 

Either way.

They screwed up.

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Ridley ain’t coming back, just listen to his presser; I think we need to keep Zay and draft a WR in round 1 or 2

Remind me, what picks do we lose if we just straight up let him walk? I do not remember.

The 3rd is gone due to playing time stipulation and/or recieving metrics being hit.  The only question is if it winds up turning into a 2 with a potential extension.

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I mean considering how little we actually made use of our backup RB and TE added with the fact that two of our best players are starting in those positions I don't think those were exactly holes.

If Balke and Doug thought that they should be fired lol.

You seem to have forgotten the months long offseason narrative that a spellback and short yardage specialist were desired - and that an inline TE who was also an actual receiving threat would unlock our passing game. 

Literally every talking head in Jag land went on about this ad nauseam. 

It all made sense at the time - but no one saw THAT tight end coming so early nor did we see RB so early on. 
 
Ironically only around 30% of the fanbase was voting for OL help at the time besides the obvious need to replace RT when Taylor was scooped up. And now everyone and their brother acts like it was the worlds greatest tragedy that we didn't do more at G/C. LOL Most of the fanbase didn't see it. "Fortner will get better, and Bartch will be healthy" was the common refrain. 

Somehow - Doug/Trent thought that line would work and they thought a TE and RB would be more valuable than IOL. 
If one of them didn't believe it, he failed to convince his counterpart.

This appears to be lost on or ignored by the “fire Baalke” folks.  Your ire should be just as strong toward Doug.

No one knows what the dynamic between Doug, Trent and Shad is, but I feel relatively confident it’s not a “I buy the groceries, you make the meal” kinda deal.  I think the buying of the groceries is more them both going to the store together given Doug’s pedigree.

Also, Shad gets painted as a slow moving moron at times around here when the message board warriors are dealing with probably very little actual verifiable information and Shad is dealing with all of the information (i.e. if anyone besides Doug and Trent knows who is responsible for a particular pick that went bad, i assure you he does.)

---

Hey. Just draft the best lineman and the best players.

Brilliant! Someone send it to Baalke!

---

You seem to have forgotten the months long offseason narrative that a spellback and short yardage specialist were desired - and that an inline TE who was also an actual receiving threat would unlock our passing game. 

Literally every talking head in Jag land went on about this ad nauseam. 

It all made sense at the time - but no one saw THAT tight end coming so early nor did we see RB so early on. 
 
Ironically only around 30% of the fanbase was voting for OL help at the time besides the obvious need to replace RT when Taylor was scooped up. And now everyone and their brother acts like it was the worlds greatest tragedy that we didn't do more at G/C. LOL Most of the fanbase didn't see it. "Fortner will get better, and Bartch will be healthy" was the common refrain. 

Somehow - Doug/Trent thought that line would work and they thought a TE and RB would be more valuable than IOL. 
If one of them didn't believe it, he failed to convince his counterpart.

This appears to be lost on or ignored by the “fire Baalke” folks.  Your ire should be just as strong toward Doug.

No one knows what the dynamic between Doug, Trent and Shad, but I feel relatively confident it’s not a “I buy the groceries, you make the meal” kinda deal.  I think the buying of the groceries is more them both going to the store together given Doug’s pedigree.

Also, Shad gets painted as a slow moving moron at times around here when the message board warriors are dealing with probably very little actual verifiable information and Shad is dealing with all of the information (i.e. if anyone besides Doug and Trent knows who is responsible for a particular pick that went bad, i assure you he does.)

Agreed, I think one of the reasons our drafts havent been good is because of Dougs guys. If all these picks were Baalkes guys he would likely be fired by now.

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Hey. Just draft the best lineman and the best players.

Brilliant! Someone send it to Baalke!

Can't, they dont have the right traits or dont fit our scheme

---

Remind me, what picks do we lose if we just straight up let him walk? I do not remember.

The 3rd is gone due to playing time stipulation and/or recieving metrics being hit.  The only question is if it winds up turning into a 2 with a potential extension.

hmm, dunno if i'd let him walk then.

---

You seem to have forgotten the months long offseason narrative that a spellback and short yardage specialist were desired - and that an inline TE who was also an actual receiving threat would unlock our passing game. 

Literally every talking head in Jag land went on about this ad nauseam. 

It all made sense at the time - but no one saw THAT tight end coming so early nor did we see RB so early on. 
 
Ironically only around 30% of the fanbase was voting for OL help at the time besides the obvious need to replace RT when Taylor was scooped up. And now everyone and their brother acts like it was the worlds greatest tragedy that we didn't do more at G/C. LOL Most of the fanbase didn't see it. "Fortner will get better, and Bartch will be healthy" was the common refrain. 

Somehow - Doug/Trent thought that line would work and they thought a TE and RB would be more valuable than IOL. 
If one of them didn't believe it, he failed to convince his counterpart.

This appears to be lost on or ignored by the “fire Baalke” folks.  Your ire should be just as strong toward Doug.

No one knows what the dynamic between Doug, Trent and Shad is, but I feel relatively confident it’s not a “I buy the groceries, you make the meal” kinda deal.  I think the buying of the groceries is more them both going to the store together given Doug’s pedigree.

Also, Shad gets painted as a slow moving moron at times around here when the message board warriors are dealing with probably very little actual verifiable information and Shad is dealing with all of the information (i.e. if anyone besides Doug and Trent knows who is responsible for a particular pick that went bad, i assure you he does.)

Gus Bradley never won more than 5 games in a season and he lasted 4 years.  Caldwell, with one exception, never won more than 6 games in a season and he lasted 8 years.  You don't consider that slow moving!?!?!?!?!?!?

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This appears to be lost on or ignored by the “fire Baalke” folks.  Your ire should be just as strong toward Doug.

No one knows what the dynamic between Doug, Trent and Shad is, but I feel relatively confident it’s not a “I buy the groceries, you make the meal” kinda deal.  I think the buying of the groceries is more them both going to the store together given Doug’s pedigree.

Also, Shad gets painted as a slow moving moron at times around here when the message board warriors are dealing with probably very little actual verifiable information and Shad is dealing with all of the information (i.e. if anyone besides Doug and Trent knows who is responsible for a particular pick that went bad, i assure you he does.)

Gus Bradley never won more than 5 games in a season and he lasted 4 years.  Caldwell, with one exception, never won more than 6 games in a season and he lasted 8 years.  You don't consider that slow moving!?!?!?!?!?!?

Bradley was fired 8 years ago

Caldwell was fired 4 years ago

How many years exactly must pass before these firings are still the gold standard of Shahid Khan's measuring stick of patience? 

Serious [BLEEP] question.

I want to know??

Many posters are after Khan with a vengeance over this but I want to know if we really feel a self made billionaire has learned absolutely nothing over a decade of NFL ownership?? 

LOL - The assumptions around here sound asinine to me

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Ridley ain’t coming back, just listen to his presser; I think we need to keep Zay and draft a WR in round 1 or 2

I got that impression as well. You can also tell he thinks way to highly of himself and is gonna ask for way to much.

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Gus Bradley never won more than 5 games in a season and he lasted 4 years.  Caldwell, with one exception, never won more than 6 games in a season and he lasted 8 years.  You don't consider that slow moving!?!?!?!?!?!?

Bradley was fired 8 years ago

Caldwell was fired 4 years ago

How many years exactly must pass before these firings are still the gold standard of Shahid Khan's measuring stick of patience? 

Serious [BLEEP] question.

I want to know??

Many posters are after Khan with a vengeance over this but I want to know if we really feel a self made billionaire has learned absolutely nothing over a decade of NFL ownership?? 

LOL - The assumptions around here sound asinine to me

2 of his 4 head coaches have been fired within a year. 3 of 5 if we include not retaining Interim Bevell. Baalke, for all we don't like him, has 2 winning seasons out of 3 in the GM chair. The 3rd was one of those 1 year coaches.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Gus Bradley never won more than 5 games in a season and he lasted 4 years.  Caldwell, with one exception, never won more than 6 games in a season and he lasted 8 years.  You don't consider that slow moving!?!?!?!?!?!?

Bradley was fired 8 years ago

Caldwell was fired 4 years ago

How many years exactly must pass before these firings are still the gold standard of Shahid Khan's measuring stick of patience? 

Serious [BLEEP] question.

I want to know??

Many posters are after Khan with a vengeance over this but I want to know if we really feel a self made billionaire has learned absolutely nothing over a decade of NFL ownership?? 

LOL - The assumptions around here sound asinine to me

LOL!!!  Are YOU serious?  CALDWELL WAS THE LAST GM!!!!!  If we're discussing the leash of the CURRENT GM, you think it is irrelevant to discuss the leash given to the LAST GM!?!?!  

Bradley is going a little farther back, but still completely relevant in terms of Khan's overall track record.  It's almost mind boggling that Khan kept a head coach so long with so little results.  It's the lowest winning percentage of any head coach in NFL history who coached a minimum of 60 games.  Seriously, I think even Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could see the writing on the wall after 3 years with Bradley (if not much earlier), but Khan let him go for a fourth season?  When you break NFL history for ineptitude, people will tend to remember it.  Oh, and it WAS within the last decade.  

I didn't mention Marrone, but there wasn't exactly a super-fast trigger on him either.  He had to go 12-36 over a three-year period with three straight last place finishes in the division to get fired.  

He did fire Meyer quickly, but he had off-the-field issues.  If he didn't, who knows?  He may still be coaching here.  He maintained Baalke despite being 3-14 that season.

Most NFL coaches are on a short leash.  Vrabel just got fired despite having a 54-45 record with his team. He had winning records in 4 of his 6 years there with 3 playoff appearances.  Prior to this season, he had finished 1st or 2nd in the division for 4 straight years.  He was only 2 years removed from being NFL coach of the year.  Despite this, a 6 win season wasn't good enough to save his job.  Bradley averaged less than 4 wins per season and got 4 years.  Caldwell averaged less 5 wins per season and got 8 years.  Wow.

Khan not having a track record of moving slowly?  Really?

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This appears to be lost on or ignored by the “fire Baalke” folks.  Your ire should be just as strong toward Doug.

No one knows what the dynamic between Doug, Trent and Shad, but I feel relatively confident it’s not a “I buy the groceries, you make the meal” kinda deal.  I think the buying of the groceries is more them both going to the store together given Doug’s pedigree.

Also, Shad gets painted as a slow moving moron at times around here when the message board warriors are dealing with probably very little actual verifiable information and Shad is dealing with all of the information (i.e. if anyone besides Doug and Trent knows who is responsible for a particular pick that went bad, i assure you he does.)

Agreed, I think one of the reasons our drafts havent been good is because of Dougs guys. If all these picks were Baalkes guys he would likely be fired by now.

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Hey. Just draft the best lineman and the best players.

Brilliant! Someone send it to Baalke!

Can't, they dont have the right traits or dont fit our scheme

Yeah because they’re good and our scheme appears to be ‘let our QB get killed’

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