(12-23-2022, 06:57 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:

(12-22-2022, 10:46 AM)carp8dm Wrote: I hate that I always seem to come into these conversations late!  I'm not ignoring the discussion, I promise!  But I don't know when I'm being replied to, so it takes me a while before I find these types of responses.

So first of all, I'm not more analytically gifted than any other poster here. We're just all giving out opinions on a topic that we have extreme familiarity with, but not extreme expertise.  The expertise only comes by being within the circle, which none of us are.  However, I reject the idea that a die hard fan (which I think it's safe to say we all are) cannot understand/comprehend the concepts of what happens within the meeting rooms, and locker rooms, and practice fields of our favorite teams.  Sure some poster's insights are more attuned to reality than others, but the same could be said about coaches around the NFL.  If Urban Meyer can be on the spectrum of coaching in the NFL (along with Jeff Saturday), that means that anything is possible in terms of the spectrum within a fan base and their analysis of how to lead and drive a team to success.  Just a long way of saying, every opinion within the community has merit enough to be considered and then it's up to that community to determine whether that said opinion has credibility or not.  No opinion should be pushed away on the basis that "you're not a coach/player/in the NFL".  Those types of baseless logical fallacies are lazy and should be shunned.  Take the opinion and argue for or against on it's merits.  

When considering your assertion that the 2 most prominent Head Coaches over the past 20 years (since 2000 and beyond) are And Reid and Belicheck, I first want to consider recency bias.  I think consideration should be made for John Harbaugh, Tom Coughlin (who I have harshly criticized as a Jaguar Front Office cancer), Ron Rivera, and Pete Carroll.  I think there are other Head Coaches could be added to this list, but let's just assume these are the top HC's over the last 20 years.  (I'm excluding Pederson intentially, because of potential emotional bias, but Pederson did a hell of a job with 2 less than HOF QBs).

When you look at a wider scoped list, like the one I've included, it breaks down to Head Coaches that had all time great HOF QBs and then there's a smaller group that aren't quite as successful but had lesser QBs to work with.  

John Harbaugh, to me is the a coach this needs to be placed in All Time great coaching.  Of course, Harbaugh has only won 1 SB, but he fought toe to toe with Belicheck and Brady in Brady's prime and always gave that Patriot squad a hard time.  (Conversely, I leave out Tony Dungy, because I think the team was lead mostly by Petyon Manning and Dungy only won 1 SB and never could do anything beyond that without Manning).

I give extra credit to Harbaugh becuase he took lesser QBs and has created franchise QB level success in both of them.  We all know how bad Flaco is.  But Harbaugh coached him up to amazing levels, to the point that he was a Patroit killer and a SB champion.  Then, when it was obvious that Flacco was no longer the man, Harbaugh completely changed his entire offensive philosophy to accommodate Lamar Jackson.  I'm not a big Lamar Jackson fan.  I think he's less than Michael Vick.  But more than Vince Young.  Lamar Jackson is over hyped.  And yet, here is Harbaugh squeezing out all the talent he possibly can from that guy.  It's amazing.  He's a better HC than Belechick, in my opinion based on this alone.

Speaking of Michael Vick.  Vick was basically hung out to dry, and rightfully so, based on off field activities.  People thought his career was done.  He was propped up by Andy Reid.  Andy Reid has the gift of making playoff caliber QBs out of players that the NFL threw into the dumpster.  Vick, And Garcia, Wentz, Foles.  Now, Reid had great success with Donovan McNabb, but McNabb will never be seen as an all time great QB.  And yet Andy Reid has always created not just playoff teams.  But teams that always were dangerous in the playoffs.  Andy Reid even found success with Alex Smith.  Not only that, Reid recognized Mahommes as a potential great and drafted him in the 2nd round (Not the 6th round, like the Belichick did with Brady - the 2nd round!).  Reid has been a great coach for decades with talent that has been less than HOF.  I argue that the only HOF QB Reid has had is Mahommes.  McNabb may squeak into the HOF, but nobody considers McNabb a top 20 all top QB...  This, in my opinion, is significant.  

You can't say the same thing for Belechick...  He's been great as the Patiorts HC, but only when he lucked into Brady.  And by lucked into Brady, I mean that Belechick was riding with a sub HOF QB in one Drew Bledsoe.  Belechick couldn't be successful with Bledsoe.  Taking a flyer on a 6th round Brady makes a good story.  But it's not like Belichick really believed Brady was anything but a back up (I don't care about any of the revisionist history of Belichick seeing something in Brady during training camp.  That's all nonsense to cover his butt, in my opinion.  But you know who did get to a Super Bowl with Bledsoe?  Pete Carrol!

All this to say, again, that there are HC's that recognize talent and can get the most out of that talent.  And other HCs, that while are great, have their success directly tied to an all time great QB.


OK, I have just spouted so much Bull [BLEEP] nonsense that I think I should probably stop here.  I could continue on, but I have a feeling I've already reached the TL;DR level of bloviation!  

I've just responded to the first part of your response.  I could go on to the next sectioon, but I'd rather stop here and let you determine whether you'd like to continue this conversation or just...  You know...  Ignore all my nonsense.

I know it was a different era when the passing game was not as important as it is today, but when you're talking about great head coaches, you have to give credit to Joe Gibbs, who won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different not-so-stellar QBs.  Joe Theisman, Doug Williams, and Mark Rypien.  

I'm not trying to negate your point, I'm just throwing out a little interesting trivia about a really great head coach.