I'm not spinning [BLEEP]. You're talking about the past and I'm talking about present day. What happened in the past is awful but we don't live in 1953 anymore and folks on the left need to stop trying to convince people that we do to pad their agenda. I am so sick and tired of this BS.

If you only speak of the present without reference to the past, how is there any tradition at all?

It's called evolving. Something (almost) every intelligent human being does over time. Something the left thinks they do but instead lives in the past in order to further their agenda. 

It is absolutely possible to remember and learn from the past while moving forward. Every anniversary of 9/11 is an example. We remember what happened; hopefully those whose job it is to prevent it from happening again learned from past mistakes; all the while we all move forward. 

The issue of race is not quite as straight forward but it's the same idea. We all have the power to learn and move forward. The problem is many don't want us to because they gain too much from keeping it alive.

Also, traditions evolve just as we do. At least for most of us. Society in general thinks something is wrong with a woman like me who doesn't want kids. Society can kiss my [BLEEP].

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Yes, traditions evolve whether we want them to or not. Whether we advocate for traditional values or not. You can say I'm overthinking it, but I still think when someone says that they advocate for traditional values, that they want that evolution to reverse.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Well that's on you, not them. And you are definitely overthinking it all.

Now you start talking about far-right crazy folks who actually believe the way you and captivating think all conservatives/traditionalists believe? Those folks are in a league of their own and they can rot in their hate and discontent.

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I had to come back to this and ask, do you really think this is true? I know a lot of folks with traditional values and 100% of them do not think the way you describe. Some may hold to some stricter traditions than others, but not any of them are living like it's 1953. 

Traditional values would be a man and woman who are married and may/may not have kids. That the husband is the head of the household. Kids are taught to respect everyone, especially those who are older. Abstain from sex before marriage. Work hard and provide for your family. Going to church. DoIng things in your community to help others. 

Not a single traditional value has anything to do with racism or seeing anyone as second class citizens. The folks who do, do so because they are just bitter people, or they were raised by haters, not because of traditional values. There folks without traditional values being taught to be hateful. 

Those values have nothing to do with who goes to what church. It used to bother me that the majority of churches I've seen do tend toward being all white or all black. A black friend of mine said white churches just aren't loud and lively enough, that our cultures are too different. My sister in Ohio is married to a Korean fellow and on Sundays he goes to the Korean church and she goes to the non-Korean church. He says it's a cultural thing. Yes, that word again. But I've seen multicultural churches in big cities (think NYC) that are really fantastic. Why do they work in big cities and not smaller towns? I wish they did.

I think a lot of issues that are seen as racial or racist are very much cultural or nationality differences. It has nothing to do with not liking another person because of their skin color but rather not relating to their culture or nationality. Yes, there is racism. Outright and ugly racism. And it's wrong on every level. But not everything is about race to the average person. It just isn't. But the media and the entertainment industry want us to think it is because that's how they make money. I won't even go into how politicians use it to their advantage. 

It really does bother me that people think the way you described because it is not true of a lot of people who hold to those values. Specifically those my age and younger. We just don't think that way. And don't confuse political conservatives and those who hold traditional values. They're not always one and the same. My in-laws are democrats but hold very traditional values. Something I learned a few years ago was to never confuse someone's politics with their values.

My post was intentional provocative to show that the term traditional means nothing without a timestamp.  Even then, not everyone agreed with those values but you could at least argue that the pervading values at a point in time were X, Y and Z.  

Your sister could be argued as having very progressive values in marrying a Korean and going to a Korean church to someone born in 1940.  But to someone born in 2000, it wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

A lot of "traditional" values are  sexist and racist by today's standards.  Heck, the Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"....as a woman - sorry, you're [BLEEP] outta luck.

Do I believe in the traditional values I listed?  No!  Do I believe in the traditional values you listed?  No!

I'm not sure how you see me as oppressed because I damn sure don't. If I want to do something I'll do it. I've worked in construction, was in the Army, and have always done things my male counterparts didn't always approve of. Guess what? I don't care if they approve. They don't own me and they're damn sure not going to tell me to go back to the house and do women's work. Or they can and they'll get their [BLEEP] handed to them.  

Same for the women. I've been told I need to act more lady-like and be content staying at home. Oh, and the best one is that I must be so sad I never had babies. What the hell ever. 

Small minds are where sexist, racist and bad attitudes in general come from, not someone's values.

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Yes, traditions evolve whether we want them to or not.  Whether we advocate for traditional values or not.  You can say I'm overthinking it, but I still think when someone says that they advocate for traditional values, that they want that evolution to reverse.

So if that is how YOU think, then everyone must think like that?  Also, yes you are progressive on many, many issue.  Acceptance is the first stage of recovery.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

The problem with Mikey is that he spends too much time discussing these ideas with liberal "intellectuals" And Intellectuals have been largely duped by bad philosophies of progressives. It's like they are incapable of seeing how this cancer is affecting their thought process. Mikey doesn't think he's progressive, but, because he is open minded, he's also been affected by the cancer. He's definitely not progressive in the truest sense of the word, but he has been warped by that way of thinking. 10 years ago, he would not believe these things.

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Dude is a contrarian. But he might have actually learned something in this whole discussion. We'll see.

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Dude is a contrarian. But he might have actually learned something in this whole discussion. We'll see.

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The problem with Mikey is that he spends too much time discussing these ideas with liberal "intellectuals" And Intellectuals have been largely duped by bad philosophies of progressives. It's like they are incapable of seeing how this cancer is affecting their thought process. Mikey doesn't think he's progressive, but, because he is open minded, he's also been affected by the cancer. He's definitely not progressive in the truest sense of the word, but he has been warped by that way of thinking. 10 years ago, he would not believe these things.

Its more than just being open minded.  It's my life experience and family experience.  I've watched people close themselves off to their loved ones due to rigid, extreme political opinions.  I can talk to my father about politics.  I can talk to my father in law about politics.  But the two of them can't talk to each other about it.  Their views are too rigid and too different.  Music they can discuss.  TV and movies, too.  Politics no.  Fortunately the three of us have interests beyond politics.  But my grandfather really doesn't.  All he ever wants to talk about is politics, then sometimes history or economics, so he can loop it back to politics again.  TV, he rarely watches anything other than the news.  Fox News.  I'm committed to not being too rigid and not being too extreme, but still being engaged and in the conversation.  I want to maintain the connections I have.  I don't want to turn into one of them. Maybe it's just me being afraid of getting old.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

You're also what I will call a naive optimist. You are easily sold a dream of a better tomorrow and you want to believe it. That would be all fine and good if the hope is rooted in actual, realizable potential. However, there are some really, really bad ideas that have overtaken liberalism, and far too many liberals are being sucked into a destructive way of thinking... one that needs to be almost intolerantly disregarded. And that's not to say that being a dreamer is inherently a bad thing. We need dreamers. We just need those dreams to look more like goals, and those goals need to be lifting up the people around us. Unfortunately, so many progressive goals are destructive, not productive. They tell you that in order to be productive, you must be destructive. That's critical theory in a nutshell, and it's dangerous.

I am actually very liberal... far more than most people on this board. Hell, I am probably more progressive than most people on this board. There are many things in this country that could change for the better. Unfortunately, we are not going to be able to realize that change so long as we are chasing dreams that are rooted in the belief that human beings are and should be perfect, and that the entirety of humanity and history should be dealt with critically, so any imperfection should be criticized, then destroyed... of course, that's only ideas that have not originated from progressive ideology. Those ideas should not be challenged or examined. The entire point of critical theory and all of its offshoots is to tear down the status quo. It's a completely unrealistic standard that NOBODY can live up to. Not any individual. Not any group. Not any species. This world was and is brutal. We need to operate within the existing paradigm and champion personal growth, not demagoguery.

The scope with which you define "traditional values" is disingenuous, and I don't believe you mean it to be. I just think you hear something and adopt it because you think that makes you a better person. Imo, it makes you incomplete, which is why you are so easily deceived. People... narcissists... sociopaths... they will exploit these ticks in honest people to achieve power, and that's all I see these days.

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Traditional values are literally the values that our parents passed on to us from their ancestors. That is what tradition means. The traditional practice was segregation, and the traditional value was that good people did not deviate from segregation.
There are many people still alive today whose parents and grandparents taught them to resist racial integration at all costs. Do not doubt for a minute that our 80 year old President told his kids to avoid being in a racial jungle. We know he told the voters of Delaware that. How much more would someone Hunter Biden's age, who grew up in Virginia, have heard?
When you say "those are not the traditional values they mean" and "traditional values evolve," how are you any different from the liberals and progressives?
This is why, as I said at the beginning, conservatives must be very specific about which values we uphold. Family values yes. Strong work ethic yes. Tolerance yes. Etc. Those are all more specific. "Traditional values" is such a big basket that it is a dog whistle for those values you don't want to include.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The problem with Mikey is that he spends too much time discussing these ideas with liberal "intellectuals" And Intellectuals have been largely duped by bad philosophies of progressives. It's like they are incapable of seeing how this cancer is affecting their thought process. Mikey doesn't think he's progressive, but, because he is open minded, he's also been affected by the cancer. He's definitely not progressive in the truest sense of the word, but he has been warped by that way of thinking. 10 years ago, he would not believe these things.

Its more than just being open minded.  It's my life experience and family experience.  I've watched people close themselves off to their loved ones due to rigid, extreme political opinions.  I can talk to my father about politics.  I can talk to my father in law about politics.  But the two of them can't talk to each other about it.  Their views are too rigid and too different.  Music they can discuss.  TV and movies, too.  Politics no.  Fortunately the three of us have interests beyond politics.  But my grandfather really doesn't.  All he ever wants to talk about is politics, then sometimes history or economics, so he can loop it back to politics again.  TV, he rarely watches anything other than the news.  Fox News.  I'm committed to not being too rigid and not being too extreme, but still being engaged and in the conversation.  I want to maintain the connections I have.  I don't want to turn into one of them. Maybe it's just me being afraid of getting old.

You can hold and express firm convictions and still maintain connections. People arent monoliths on every subject. And people should be mature enough to accept differences and still be able to get along at some level. If they arent, then they are too immature and/or thin skinned and probably not worth knowing anyway. But the whole 'go along to get along' mantra is just so weak and spineless, IMHO. Same with fence sitters. Make a choice, make a decision, and then support your decision. Ive got more respect for people who are opposite of my views but who can at least logically defend them than for those who just go along because they are afraid to offend.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Traditional values are literally the values that our parents passed on to us from their ancestors.  That is what tradition means. The traditional practice was segregation, and the traditional value was that good people did not deviate from segregation. 
There are many people still alive today whose parents and grandparents taught them to resist racial integration at all costs.  Do not doubt for a minute that our 80 year old President told his kids to avoid being in a racial jungle. We know he told the voters of Delaware that.  How much more would someone Hunter Biden's age, who grew up in Virginia, have heard?
When you say "those are not the traditional values they mean" and "traditional values evolve," how are you any different from the liberals and progressives?
This is why, as I said at the beginning, conservatives must be very specific about which values we uphold.  Family values yes.  Strong work ethic yes.  Tolerance yes. Etc. Those are all more specific. "Traditional values" is such a big basket that it is a dog whistle for those values you don't want to include.

Conservatives have to specifically define themselves so you don’t deem them racist?  Meanwhile most of the regulars on this forum can figure out what the poster is referring to after years of interaction.  It’s only the progressive types that jump instantly to “you want slavery and segregation”.  For the umpteeth time this reflects more on you than anyone else.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Traditional values are literally the values that our parents passed on to us from their ancestors.  That is what tradition means. The traditional practice was segregation, and the traditional value was that good people did not deviate from segregation. 
There are many people still alive today whose parents and grandparents taught them to resist racial integration at all costs.  Do not doubt for a minute that our 80 year old President told his kids to avoid being in a racial jungle. We know he told the voters of Delaware that.  How much more would someone Hunter Biden's age, who grew up in Virginia, have heard?
When you say "those are not the traditional values they mean" and "traditional values evolve," how are you any different from the liberals and progressives?
This is why, as I said at the beginning, conservatives must be very specific about which values we uphold.  Family values yes.  Strong work ethic yes.  Tolerance yes. Etc. Those are all more specific. "Traditional values" is such a big basket that it is a dog whistle for those values you don't want to include.

Conservatives have to specifically define themselves so you don’t deem them racist?  Meanwhile most of the regulars on this forum can figure out what the poster is referring to after years of interaction.  It’s only the progressive types that jump instantly to “you want slavery and segregation”.  For the umpteeth time this reflects more on you than anyone else.

Not what I said.  I said that any person who advocates for traditional values, in an area where those values include racism, could be credibly accused of advocating for racism. Therefore such words should be avoided and more specific words should be used.
If you don't believe me, ask Trent Lott.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Traditional values has some subjectivity, certainly, which is why people with bad agendas choose to accost a group of people who use that term. Casting a group of people in the worst light possible based on a subjective term seems a bit critical, don't you think? That's not an accident.

The problem you have is that you think the progressives who drive this narrative are honorable instead of manipulative. They WANT to throw the baby out with the bath water. They aren't just attacking racism, they are using racism to attack American values, which are far MORE than racism. Racism is a part of the American struggle, no doubt, but it's not the entirety of our belief system, and hasn't been embraced in the entertainment and cultural sphere for over 50 years. So, you should ask yourself why, in a thread about socialism and pedophilia, you chose to get into the nuances of "traditional values." There is absolutely no context that brings in the subject of race, but here we are talking about it. You said it without even thinking about it, and that's because you hear it being used in this way. It's one giant straw man.

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Dude is a contrarian. But he might have actually learned something in this whole discussion. We'll see.

I'm trying to be optimistic.

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Traditional values are literally the values that our parents passed on to us from their ancestors.  That is what tradition means. The traditional practice was segregation, and the traditional value was that good people did not deviate from segregation. 
There are many people still alive today whose parents and grandparents taught them to resist racial integration at all costs.  Do not doubt for a minute that our 80 year old President told his kids to avoid being in a racial jungle. We know he told the voters of Delaware that.  How much more would someone Hunter Biden's age, who grew up in Virginia, have heard?
When you say "those are not the traditional values they mean" and "traditional values evolve," how are you any different from the liberals and progressives?
This is why, as I said at the beginning, conservatives must be very specific about which values we uphold.  Family values yes.  Strong work ethic yes.  Tolerance yes. Etc. Those are all more specific. "Traditional values" is such a big basket that it is a dog whistle for those values you don't want to include.

Maybe the case in your family but not mine. My family is a blended one from the northeast and midwest. It was not an easy situation and we all look back on it now and realize we were all just trying to get through the day. Us kids weren't taught anything other than how to cook meals and do housework and other chores, to respect them and everyone else, what church meant, how to be productive human beings as we grew up, etc. We were not political in any way though my parents did vote. Race, segregation and all that BS was definitely never a topic of conversation in our house. Anything I learned about outside of that as a kid was either at school or in interactions with people.

I literally have no traditions from growing up so my values are from what I believe in from my experiences, not from anything anyone told me. I can't look at any one thing and say that my parents had any influence on me outside of what I listed above. Maybe that's weird, maybe not, but it's all I know. It's also probably why I hate being told what or how to think. 

You act like people with traditional values sit around and talk to their kids about the days of racism and segregation like it's a badge of honor or a rite of passage to pass on to little Susie and little Johnny. There are people like that, yes, but not in the quantity you seem to think by a long shot.

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Traditional values are literally the values that our parents passed on to us from their ancestors.  That is what tradition means. The traditional practice was segregation, and the traditional value was that good people did not deviate from segregation. 
There are many people still alive today whose parents and grandparents taught them to resist racial integration at all costs.  Do not doubt for a minute that our 80 year old President told his kids to avoid being in a racial jungle. We know he told the voters of Delaware that.  How much more would someone Hunter Biden's age, who grew up in Virginia, have heard?
When you say "those are not the traditional values they mean" and "traditional values evolve," how are you any different from the liberals and progressives?
This is why, as I said at the beginning, conservatives must be very specific about which values we uphold.  Family values yes.  Strong work ethic yes.  Tolerance yes. Etc. Those are all more specific. "Traditional values" is such a big basket that it is a dog whistle for those values you don't want to include.

Maybe the case in your family but not mine. My family is a blended one from the northeast and midwest. It was not an easy situation and we all look back on it now and realize we were all just trying to get through the day. Us kids weren't taught anything other than how to cook meals and do housework and other chores, to respect them and everyone else, what church meant, how to be productive human beings as we grew up, etc. We were not political in any way though my parents did vote. Race, segregation and all that BS was definitely never a topic of conversation in our house. Anything I learned about outside of that as a kid was either at school or in interactions with people.

I literally have no traditions from growing up so my values are from what I believe in from my experiences, not from anything anyone told me. I can't look at any one thing and say that my parents had any influence on me outside of what I listed above. Maybe that's weird, maybe not, but it's all I know. It's also probably why I hate being told what or how to think. 

You act like people with traditional values sit around and talk to their kids about the days of racism and segregation like it's a badge of honor or a rite of passage to pass on to little Susie and little Johnny. There are people like that, yes, but not in the quantity you seem to think by a long shot.

Did you spend your middle school years in Jacksonville? Did you ever go to a school with forced desegregation?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Traditional values are applied to all Americans without discrimination, but when you point out that all Americans don't share that experience, Mikey gets discriminatory. Funny how that works.

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Traditional values are applied to all Americans without discrimination, but when you point out that all Americans don't share that experience, Mikey gets discriminatory. Funny how that works.

Many of us can't remember our parents passing any racist or pro segregation views on us.  My parents didn't.  But some of the kids I went to school with, their parents did.  And it was salient then because we were going through forced desegregation.  That's why us kids discussed it.  I slept over with friends whose parents would openly say things like "you can't let them run stuff.  Look at Liberia.  That's what happens when you put them in charge of stuff."  Awful and unfair things like that said at dinner tables.  Maybe that didn't happen in north Carolina.  It did happen in Jax. And this isn't white guilt either. I heard black kids saying bad things about whites as well. I distinctly remember one of the kids they bussed over bullying me. There may have been others that I don't remember. I didn't think it was good to bring people who didnt want to go to a school all the way across town, across town. Everything's better when all the families at a particular school have chosen that school. But I digress.

It's salient here now because, even though your parents maybe didn't pass that on as a tradition, and mine didn't, and Americus' didn't, the kids I encountered, whose parents did, they are also out there, they're voting age now, and they're listening to the same politicians we listen to.  It's a dog whistle.  You swear you don't hear it, but the people who know, hear it.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.