A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

Taxation is theft. I'll die on that hill. You cannot escape it. You get no say in it. Taxes fluctuate. It's rare they stay even across the board. It is then used for God knows what and to who's benefit. 

The problem is, and it all circles back to Eric's original point and posting of this situation in France. The retirement age. Right now in our country, we're getting gouged by taxes, suffering through inflation and a stagnant economy. 

Meanwhile, they continue to raise our requirement age for Social Security. It's been put out there that we may not even see it. So, right now, a good portion of your taxes are being:

A. Used predominately in areas we have no say in, no knowledge of or benefit from.

B. Used to bail out crooked, corrupted systems that are ran by crooked, corrupted people. 

C. The coffers will be dry by the time you reach, if you're lucky, the new age requirement for retirement benefits. After they took it yearly from your paycheck when you could have been saving it. 

How in the [BLEEP] is this not theft? We're being robbed. By a bogus system. I already posted article after article on this matter in the main political thread. The Federal Reserve Act of 1916 passed by Woodrow Wilson combined by that other [BLEEP] crook, Nixon, when he [BLEEP] all over the Gold Standard, our future, our freedom, our financial security for most Americans, it's been completely hijacked. 

We have no real security here anymore. You can't pay your taxes? Cool. They'll seize your [BLEEP] property. They'll seize your assets. After they've been making it increasingly more difficult to play their [BLEEP] [BLEEP] game to begin with because the table is rigged, it's tilted, in their favor. As it's always been. 

That. Is. Theft. 

[BLEEP] your Webster definition, Jack. It's THEFT.

Ok.  [BLEEP] your definition too, then.  Great conversation.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Taxation is theft. I'll die on that hill. You cannot escape it. You get no say in it. Taxes fluctuate. It's rare they stay even across the board. It is then used for God knows what and to who's benefit. 

The problem is, and it all circles back to Eric's original point and posting of this situation in France. The retirement age. Right now in our country, we're getting gouged by taxes, suffering through inflation and a stagnant economy. 

Meanwhile, they continue to raise our requirement age for Social Security. It's been put out there that we may not even see it. So, right now, a good portion of your taxes are being:

A. Used predominately in areas we have no say in, no knowledge of or benefit from.

B. Used to bail out crooked, corrupted systems that are ran by crooked, corrupted people. 

C. The coffers will be dry by the time you reach, if you're lucky, the new age requirement for retirement benefits. After they took it yearly from your paycheck when you could have been saving it. 

How in the [BLEEP] is this not theft? We're being robbed. By a bogus system. I already posted article after article on this matter in the main political thread. The Federal Reserve Act of 1916 passed by Woodrow Wilson combined by that other [BLEEP] crook, Nixon, when he [BLEEP] all over the Gold Standard, our future, our freedom, our financial security for most Americans, it's been completely hijacked. 

We have no real security here anymore. You can't pay your taxes? Cool. They'll seize your [BLEEP] property. They'll seize your assets. After they've been making it increasingly more difficult to play their [BLEEP] [BLEEP] game to begin with because the table is rigged, it's tilted, in their favor. As it's always been. 

That. Is. Theft. 

[BLEEP] your Webster definition, Jack. It's THEFT.

Ok.  [BLEEP] your definition too, then.  Great conversation.

Cheers.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

The hell it isn't theft. If we don't pay taxes on property we own the government will eventually take it away from us and that means we don't truly own the property. 

If I don't pay annual property tax and registration fee on my truck they make sure I can't drive it legally.

The government doesn't want us to own anything so they make sure we don't by taxing us and if we don't pay they confiscate. 

We get no say in paying taxes at the grocery store, the restaurant, the movie theater, the hair salon, the pet store. 

THAT IS THEFT.

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A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

Taxes by definition are involuntary.  You should know this, but you have been radicalized by books or blogs written by people who don't know you and wouldn't like you if they met you.  Nothing personal.  These people don't like anyone.  You have been enticed into believing that if you converted to  philosophies that were pure enough, you would be accepted. Same enticement the 9/11 hijackers started with.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

The hell it isn't theft. If we don't pay taxes on property we own the government will eventually take it away from us and that means we don't truly own the property. 

If I don't pay annual property tax and registration fee on my truck they make sure I can't drive it legally.

The government doesn't want us to own anything so they make sure we don't by taxing us and if we don't pay they confiscate. 

We get no say in paying taxes at the grocery store, the restaurant, the movie theater, the hair salon, the pet store. 

THAT IS THEFT.

Government determines who owns what.
From the time of colonization by Europeans, land here was first claimed by governments, who then divided it up and issued deeds to individuals and corporations.
You do get a say, when you vote. 
If you don't get a vote, that is probably tyranny, but it is still not theft.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The slogan taxation is theft is meant to make a point not taken literally. It's a slogan in libertarian circles meant to demonstrate the level of wealth confiscated at the point of force to redistribute across society. Only the most extreme anarchist belief all taxes are unjust. Most libertarians I know myself included will admit some taxes are necessary for a functioning society. The discussion becomes what must be state funded that can not be privatized and ran more efficiently.

My original point was again France is a prime example of how inefficient government is at wealth planning. Even with the confiscation of 2/3rds of wealth generated they can not sustain their retirement program as promised. The private sector out performs state control wealth generation everytime because the motivation is financial. The lesson we should learn is dependence on social security is a wasted resource. We should push to privatize social security and allow individuals to make their own investments the state ponzi scheme will never be sustainable.

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The slogan taxation is theft is meant to make a point not taken literally. It's a slogan in libertarian circles meant to demonstrate the level of wealth confiscated at the point of force to redistribute across society. Only the most extreme anarchist belief all taxes are unjust. Most libertarians I know myself included will admit some taxes are necessary for a functioning society. The discussion becomes what must be state funded that can not be privatized and ran more efficiently.

My original point was again France is a prime example of how inefficient government is at wealth planning. Even with the confiscation of 2/3rds of wealth generated they can not sustain their retirement program as promised. The private sector out performs state control wealth generation everytime because the motivation is financial. The lesson we should learn is dependence on social security is a wasted resource. We should push to privatize social security and allow individuals to make their own investments the state ponzi scheme will never be sustainable.

I'm glad you recognize it's a motto that's more designed to attract attention than inform.
There are a lot of things like that.  Little, deceptive, oversimplifications that catch on.

Like how you just said the top marginal tax rate of a country is the ratio of control that government has over that economy.  That's not so. France's top income tax rate plus their VAT rate may indeed add up to about 2/3 (though strictly speaking you should add two tax rates together when they tax different things), but thats the top rate.  And it's a marginal rate.  Even the richest person in France will pay lower rates on their first hundred thousand euros of income.  So no one actually pays that rate overall.  Overall, French government collects about 45% of their GDP as taxes.  Not 2/3.

People here also put too much stock in the budget of the top level, federal part of the country, divided by GDP, when they think about how big their government is. If you look at US federal spending, it's about 20% of GDP.  Seems like our government spends a lot less than France's... except... this ignores state and local taxes and spending.  When you add those in, our number overall is about 35%.  If you look at rural areas, it's usually less.  If you look at Manhattan Island, it's about 45%, just like France.    The number I gave for France already includes their state and local taxes.

As for social security being a ponzi scheme, that's irrelevant. Social security is meant to increase happiness while reducing unemployment. Reducing the number of people who search for work. When you do it right, supply of labor goes down, wages go up, and some of the wages are diverted to to the old folks who didn't work, the old people are happier, and hopefully the wage increase the young people got is more than the tax they paid. Similar reason why we put so many subsidies out there for college now. It's all about contracting the labor market down to a more optimal level.

France definitely overdid it though. You won't find any economist who sticks up for 62 as a sustainable retirement age.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

Taxes by definition are involuntary.  You should know this, but you have been radicalized by books or blogs written by people who don't know you and wouldn't like you if they met you.  Nothing personal.  These people don't like anyone.  You have been enticed into believing that if you converted to  philosophies that were pure enough, you would be accepted. Same enticement the 9/11 hijackers started with.

Lol, you're such a doorknob.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Taxes by definition are involuntary.  You should know this, but you have been radicalized by books or blogs written by people who don't know you and wouldn't like you if they met you.  Nothing personal.  These people don't like anyone.  You have been enticed into believing that if you converted to  philosophies that were pure enough, you would be accepted. Same enticement the 9/11 hijackers started with.

Lol, you're such a doorknob.

Meh, doorknobs are used every day and have been so for centuries.
You, you're more like a TiVo.  Plenty of smarts, state of the art at one time, but shackled to a single source of data abd unable to question what he's been taught as the world's needs and knowledge change.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Lol, you're such a doorknob.

Meh, doorknobs are used every day and have been so for centuries.
You, you're more like a TiVo.  Plenty of smarts, state of the art at one time, but shackled to a single source of data abd unable to question what he's been taught as the world's needs and knowledge change.

I meant everyone gets a turn yanking on you.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Meh, doorknobs are used every day and have been so for centuries.
You, you're more like a TiVo.  Plenty of smarts, state of the art at one time, but shackled to a single source of data abd unable to question what he's been taught as the world's needs and knowledge change.

I meant everyone gets a turn yanking on you.

It's good to be useful.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

Unfortunately, the demand for entitlements acts more like an addiction than an ideology.  History shows that you can always get a large majority of the population to ride the dopamine high all the way to national squalor.

---

France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

Get out....  just take your stuff and GET OUT.

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Taxation is theft. It's astounding that we continue to allow the same, cyclical nonsense to occur here in the states. They raise the ceiling while deepening the floor while also doing what they please with the taxes they take. We get no say in it.

Then, they lose trillions of dollars here and there and it's swept under the [BLEEP] rug while telling us that we'll have to work well into our 60's and you'll be lucky if there's any crumbs left to survive off of for retirement. There should be protests in the streets daily over this.

From who?  What 50% of the population are net benefactors.  Refund checks is the equivalent of adult Christmas.  We don't even have meaningful debates about fiscal policy or taxation in the public arena.  

Even Trump was weighed down with this "I'm not really cutting taxes" nonsense.

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Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

Taxes by definition are involuntary.  You should know this, but you have been radicalized by books or blogs written by people who don't know you and wouldn't like you if they met you.  Nothing personal.  These people don't like anyone.  You have been enticed into believing that if you converted to  philosophies that were pure enough, you would be accepted. Same enticement the 9/11 hijackers started with.

That's my Mikey!    Thst righgggght there!

---

In what used to be a great country, built on the closest thing to capitalism the world has ever seem, we still have an overwhelming majority of the population that shares the same worldview as the old soviet grandmother "If the state doesn't build the bakery, how will we get bread."

---

A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by passing laws, they are not theft.  You are a citizen of this country or this state, and you are subject to the laws of this country or this state.

If you want to assert that taxation is the taking of private property, in violation of your property rights, then you have to deal with the fact that the concept of private property is a result of laws and conventions, of which taxes is an integral part.

---

Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by passing laws, they are not theft.  You are a citizen of this country or this state, and you are subject to the laws of this country or this state.

If you want to assert that taxation is the taking of private property, in violation of your property rights, then you have to deal with the fact that the concept of private property is a result of laws and conventions, of which taxes is an integral part.

Should have never enacted a school system funded with taxation.  Sad...  smh

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Taxation that is not voluntary is exactly theft. You know this, you just love being the contrarian.

The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by passing laws, they are not theft.  You are a citizen of this country or this state, and you are subject to the laws of this country or this state.

If you want to assert that taxation is the taking of private property, in violation of your property rights, then you have to deal with the fact that the concept of private property is a result of laws and conventions, of which taxes is an integral part.

Granting yourself legal right to other people's lives is stealing, law be damned. Taxation is just them making people like you feel good about it.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by passing laws, they are not theft.  You are a citizen of this country or this state, and you are subject to the laws of this country or this state.

If you want to assert that taxation is the taking of private property, in violation of your property rights, then you have to deal with the fact that the concept of private property is a result of laws and conventions, of which taxes is an integral part.

Granting yourself legal right to other people's lives is stealing, law be damned. Taxation is just them making people like you feel good about it.

It's like you completely ignored the post you were responding to.  "Lawful theft" is an oxymoron.   The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by enacting laws, taxation cannot be theft.

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Granting yourself legal right to other people's lives is stealing, law be damned. Taxation is just them making people like you feel good about it.

It's like you completely ignored the post you were responding to.  "Lawful theft" is an oxymoron.   The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by enacting laws, taxation cannot be theft.

So slavery, fine!  Holocaust, hey it was THE LAW.

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Granting yourself legal right to other people's lives is stealing, law be damned. Taxation is just them making people like you feel good about it.

It's like you completely ignored the post you were responding to.  "Lawful theft" is an oxymoron.   The definition of theft is "the act of stealing or taking something from someone unlawfully."  Since taxes are implemented by enacting laws, taxation cannot be theft.

As I said, they Mikesez you into believing that.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato