Login

***FBT*** · 06-21-2016, 11:56 AM

I'm not sure it's yellow journalism. I think there's a cover your rear maneuver being executed by the base commander.

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

TJBender · 06-21-2016, 01:16 PM

Quote:I'm not sure it's yellow journalism. I think there's a cover your rear maneuver being executed by the base commander.

Oh, I'm sure there is. Not something I'm willing to get too bent up over at this point, but if use of the G-word at military funerals becomes a no-no, then we have a serious problem. I mean, more serious than the SJwhatevers and thought police who are already out there telling us that if our actions or morals differ from theirs, we're wrong and deserve shaming.

rollerjag · 06-21-2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:Oh, I'm sure there is. Not something I'm willing to get too bent up over at this point, but if use of the G-word at military funerals becomes a no-no, then we have a serious problem. I mean, more serious than the SJwhatevers and thought police who are already out there telling us that if our actions or morals differ from theirs, we're wrong and deserve shaming.

One minor clarification, it was a retirement ceremony, not a memorial service.

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley

[Image: kiWL4mF.jpg]

TJBender · 06-21-2016, 01:29 PM

Quote:One minor clarification, it was a retirement ceremony, not a memorial service.

Eh, I still have a problem with it. If a retiring military member wants the speaker to praise Satan, Buddha, Allah or Zenu, that's their call.

rollerjag · 06-21-2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:Eh, I still have a problem with it. If a retiring military member wants the speaker to praise Satan, Buddha, Allah or Zenu, that's their call.

I agree, but the disruption would have been more unsettling had it been a funeral.

I'm more interested in the back story. Was he really banned. If so, why, and why was he there despite the ban.

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley

[Image: kiWL4mF.jpg]

HIGH SCORE · 06-21-2016, 03:18 PM

LOL

I thought the OP looked suspiciously void of details supporting the supposed reason for this guy's removal.

Dey terk er jerbs!!!

Word is the guy who escorted the poor veteran out also was seen saying "Happy Holidays!" last December....BURN HIM!!!!

HIGH SCORE · 06-21-2016, 03:22 PM

Quote:This is right. He will sue, and I hope they all get punished. Despicable. This kind of stuff is why I can't stand liberal doxology. If this stands this will be the destruction of Americas last trusted institute, the Military. Once that is considered untrustworthy there will be no branch of government that is respected.

HHAHAHAHAHhahahaha sue for what?!

"The court rules in favor of the plaintiff. The plantiff is hereby awarded one allowed instance of saying the word God at a venue of his choice. Court adjourned."

***jagibelieve*** · 06-21-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:I agree, but the disruption would have been more unsettling had it been a funeral.

I'm more interested in the back story. Was he really banned. If so, why, and why was he there despite the ban.

Well the link that I provided does have the information that you seek. He wasn't "banned" from the base. A retired veteran has access to most military installations. He or she cannot be "banned" from a base for a reason such as this.

Quote:

When Roberson’s unit commander discovered that Rodriguez would be delivering the flag-folding speech, which mentions “God,” during the ceremony, he attempted to prevent Rodriguez from attending. After learning that he lacked authority to prevent Rodriguez from attending
, the commander then told Roberson that Rodriguez could not give the speech. Rodriguez asked Roberson what he should do, and Roberson responded that it was his personal desire that Rodriguez give the flag-folding speech as planned. Watch Roberson tell his story.

Roberson and Rodriguez tried to clear the speech through higher authorities at Travis Air Force Base, even offering to place notices on the door informing guests that the word “God” would be mentioned. They never received a response from the authorities. As an Air Force veteran himself, Rodriguez stood firm on his commitment to Roberson.

An NCO's retirement ceremony is an important event in the member's career and is meant to honor him/her. The member can invite whoever they want to speak and/or participate in any manner that they choose.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

***jagibelieve*** · 06-21-2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:LOL

I thought the OP looked suspiciously void of details supporting the supposed reason for this guy's removal.

Dey terk er jerbs!!!

Word is the guy who escorted the poor veteran out also was seen saying "Happy Holidays!" last December....BURN HIM!!!!

You appear to be just as intelligent as your avatar.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

**Bchbunnie4** · 06-21-2016, 03:50 PM

I'm pretty sure that you have to finish the oath you swear when you join the military with "So help me God", or it least it was to the handful that I've been too, admittedly it's been a few years since I've attended one. Has that been changed?

What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

***jagibelieve*** · 06-21-2016, 04:02 PM

Quote:I'm pretty sure that you have to finish the oath you swear when you join the military with "So help me God", or it least it was to the handful that I've been too, admittedly it's been a few years since I've attended one. Has that been changed?

Actually, the last phrase is not a requirement.

By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing retired Senior Master Sergeant Rodriguez give his speech, here is a youtube link of him doing the speech while he was still in the service. WARNING. He uses the word "God" a few times.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

The_Anchorman · 06-21-2016, 04:18 PM

So was this a situation of the separation of church and state?

Can someone please explain?

The Eleventh Doctor · 06-21-2016, 04:21 PM

I'm still waiting for evidence that this had anything to do with him mentioning 'god'. I mean his speech had the word god in it, but that doesn't mean that was the reason he was escorted out. It seems some people just like to jump to conclusions. Maybe he was kicked out for other reasons? Maybe the commanding officer just didn't like him. I don't see anything that suggests this is about his use of the word 'god'.

I was wrong about Trent Baalke.

rollerjag · 06-21-2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:Well the link that I provided does have the information that you seek. He wasn't "banned" from the base. A retired veteran has access to most military installations. He or she cannot be "banned" from a base for a reason such as this.

An NCO's retirement ceremony is an important event in the member's career and is meant to honor him/her. The member can invite whoever they want to speak and/or participate in any manner that they choose.

I doubt the text in bold is true, but for the sake of argument I'll accept it. While this is certainly a free speech issue, it appears there is a standard ceremony text for these events, authorized by the Air Force. If this is the case, and the basis of the base commander's attempt to prevent Rodriguez from attending and presenting his speech, then the confrontation was avoidable and intentional. Looking at the video, he was quietly asked to leave, refused and was subsequently escorted by several uniformed service men. To me, it looks like everyone expected it to happen.

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley

[Image: kiWL4mF.jpg]

HIGH SCORE · 06-21-2016, 04:36 PM

Quote:I'm still waiting for evidence that this had anything to do with him mentioning 'god'. I mean his speech had the word god in it, but that doesn't mean that was the reason he was escorted out. It seems some people just like to jump to conclusions. Maybe he was kicked out for other reasons? Maybe the commanding officer just didn't like him. I don't see anything that suggests this is about his use of the word 'god'.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and act like there ISN'T a war on Christmas than be my guest. But persecuted fellas like me and Jagibelieve are going to keep fightin' the good fight!

God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God Dog God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God NANANANABOOBOO YOU CAN'T STOP ME God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God God

***jagibelieve*** · 06-21-2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:So was this a situation of the separation of church and state?

Can someone please explain?

No, it's a case of military "leaders" trying to dictate what can and can't be done at a retirement ceremony.

Quote:I'm still waiting for evidence that this had anything to do with him mentioning 'god'. I mean his speech had the word god in it, but that doesn't mean that was the reason he was escorted out. It seems some people just like to jump to conclusions. Maybe he was kicked out for other reasons? Maybe the commanding officer just didn't like him. I don't see anything that suggests this is about his use of the word 'god'.

Well my response to RJ might shed a bit of light on it. To you and TAM, I'll share this link. The results come up with a story from Stars and Stripes (the military newspaper) as well as other news outlets reporting on the story.

Quote:I doubt the text in bold is true, but for the sake of argument I'll accept it. While this is certainly a free speech issue, it appears there is a standard ceremony text for these events, authorized by the Air Force. If this is the case, and the basis of the base commander's attempt to prevent Rodriguez from attending and presenting his speech, then the confrontation was avoidable and intentional. Looking at the video, he was quietly asked to leave, refused and was subsequently escorted by several uniformed service men. To me, it looks like everyone expected it to happen.

You are very much wrong, though I do agree with you that it is a free speech issue.

Regarding your first point in bold, a retiring member has the privilage to invite guests to participate in every part of the ceremony whether it's giving a speech, being a member of the Color Guard to even giving an invocation.

Regarding the second part in bold, there is no "standard" text regarding the folding of the flag in the Air Force or any branch of service. There are traditional speeches and texts that are usually read or spoken, but there is no requirement for any of them.

Regarding the final part in bold, it wasn't the base commander that attempted to bar the retired Senior Master Sergeant, it was his unit commander. There is a difference.

From the Stars and Stripes article covering the story.

Quote:

The Air Force said Tuesday it was still preparing a response to allegations regarding the incident. But a spokeswoman said that while there is a non-religious flag-folding script for official military ceremonies, Air Force personnel are entitled to use a religious script for a retirement ceremony.

“Since retirement ceremonies are personal in nature, the script preference for a flag-folding ceremony is at the discretion of the individual being honored and represents the member’s views, not those of the Air Force,” spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said. “The Air Force places the highest value on the rights of its personnel in matters of religion and facilitates the free exercise of religion by its members.”

In its letter to Air Force officials, First Liberty senior counsel Michael Berry called on the Air Force to apologize, acknowledge it was wrong and punish the non-commissioned officers who escorted Rodriguez from the room.

Berry argued that Rodriquez, a 30-year veteran, was exercising his First Amendment right in giving the speech even on a military base and his removal violated his constitutional and legal rights. It is unclear whether the military officers were within their rights to remove someone from the hall for a religious speech.

Roberson said he had invited Rodriguez to give the speech during the flag-folding portion of the April 3 ceremony, after seeing it performed at another retirement ceremony.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

The Eleventh Doctor · 06-21-2016, 04:54 PM

And again, all I see is that he was forcibly removed. I see no evidence that it had anything to do with the fact that he used the word 'god' aside from a few places with a persecution complex speculating on the reason he was removed.

Then you have this statement from John Huff (who I believe posted the video): "'The squadron commander and Oscar have issues from years ago the commander said he did not want him in the building nor saying the words to the flag."

Seems to me the issue has nothing to do with the word 'god'.

I was wrong about Trent Baalke.

The_Anchorman · 06-21-2016, 04:56 PM

Quote:No, it's a case of military "leaders" trying to dictate what can and can't be done at a retirement ceremony.

Well my response to RJ might shed a bit of light on it. To you and TAM, I'll share <a class="bbc_url" href='http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Oscar+Rodriguez'>this link</a>. The results come up with a story from Stars and Stripes (the military newspaper) as well as other news outlets reporting on the story.

You are very much wrong, though I do agree with you that it is a free speech issue.

Regarding your first point in bold, a retiring member has the privilage to invite guests to participate in every part of the ceremony whether it's giving a speech, being a member of the Color Guard to even giving an invocation.

Regarding the second part in bold, there is no "standard" text regarding the folding of the flag in the Air Force or any branch of service. There are traditional speeches and texts that are usually read or spoken, but there is no requirement for any of them.

Regarding the final part in bold, it wasn't the base commander that attempted to bar the retired Senior Master Sergeant, it was his unit commander. There is a difference.

From the Stars and Stripes article covering the story.

Oh ok. So based on these sources, he wasn't escorted out because of the word, God.

Unless you're saying that the leadership that kicked him out are so stupid and so [BLEEP] and so inexperienced to these retirement ceremonies that they didn't realize that the retiree can include religious verbiage because the air force concedes these ceremonies are personal.

badger · 06-21-2016, 04:57 PM

as a Christian I kinda agree that this is probably just click-bait journalism.

***jagibelieve*** · 06-21-2016, 05:06 PM

Quote:And again, all I see is that he was forcibly removed. I see no evidence that it had anything to do with the fact that he used the word 'god' aside from a few places with a persecution complex speculating on the reason he was removed.

Then you have this statement from John Huff (who I believe posted the video): "'The squadron commander and Oscar have issues from years ago the commander said he did not want him in the building nor saying the words to the flag."

Seems to me the issue has nothing to do with the word 'god'.

Quote:Oh ok. So based on these sources, he wasn't escorted out because of the word, God.

Unless you're saying that the leadership that kicked him out are so stupid and so [BLEEP] and so inexperienced to these retirement ceremonies that they didn't realize that the retiree can include religious verbiage because the air force concedes these ceremonies are personal.

Sigh... you two lefties just don't like to read much.

From the article in Stars and Stripes.

Quote:

In his letter, Berry said Roberson’s commanding officer Lt. Col. Michael Sovitsky objected to Rodriguez’ speech because of its religious references but did not have the authority to prevent an invited guest from attending. The letter said Sovitsky told Roberson he did not want Rodriguez to give the speech. Roberson and Rodriguez offered to place warning signs on the door of the auditorium informing people that God would be invoked.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.