as a Christian I kinda agree that this is probably just click-bait journalism. 

 

Yep...but that is Jagibelieve's jam.

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You are very much wrong, though I do agree with you that it is a free speech issue.

 

Regarding your first point in bold, a retiring member has the privilage to invite guests to participate in every part of the ceremony whether it's giving a speech, being a member of the Color Guard to even giving an invocation.

 

Regarding the second part in bold, there is no "standard" text regarding the folding of the flag in the Air Force or any branch of service.  There are traditional speeches and texts that are usually read or spoken, but there is no requirement for any of them.

 

Regarding the final part in bold, it wasn't the base commander that attempted to bar the retired Senior Master Sergeant, it was his unit commander.  There is a difference.

 

Fair enough, and I appreciate your clarification of certain military protocols and structure about which I am admittedly unaware. Having said that, I can imagine a few things that would not be allowed, starting with strippers. 

 

There is clearly a history between these two men (Rodriguez and the unit commander). If it was all about religious content in the ceremony, I agree with the Air Force spokesperson, the ceremony should acknowledge the retiree's wishes, within reason (again, strippers, etc.).

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Hey wait a minute.... What's wrong with strippa'$

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You appear to be just as intelligent as your avatar.

Crap, you've gone full jj. There's no saving you now. RIP intelligent posts from Jib.


*edit: you might have surpassed jj. At least his posts have some logic and reason to them instead of partisan clickbait.

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Hey wait a minute.... What's wrong with strippa'$

 

Nothing that a few drinks and a few doses of penicillin won't cure.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Hey wait a minute.... What's wrong with strippa'$

It's actually my preferred way of supporting single mothers.... with my singles no less... dollar bills, that is...

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Crap, you've gone full jj. There's no saving you now. RIP intelligent posts from Jib.


*edit: you might have surpassed jj. At least his posts have some logic and reason to them instead of partisan clickbait.

In JIB's defense, he actually still does have logic in terms of many topics. However, certain topics trigger him. This appears to be one...

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In JIB's defense, he actually still does have logic in terms of many topics. However, certain topics trigger him. This appears to be one...

 

LOL.  OK you libs, you caught me.  Yes I was "triggered" by this story because being a veteran and knowing about retirement ceremonies is something that I hold near and dear.  Working with the military daily, I can see how it's slowly changing in my opinion for the worse.

 

I can only speak from a perspective coming from the Navy.  There used to be traditions that we followed and did for various reasons.  The core values of a Navy member used to be Honor, Courage and Commitment.  I see it being stripped away little-by-little.  So much of it is gone.

 

As a small example that people that have never done so would probably not understand.  When a member achieves the rank of E-7 or in the Navy Chief Petty Officer, they used to go through a process called "initiation".  Initiation did include a lot of "hazing" but the reason for it was to teach humility as the member rises to the position of leadership.  That tradition is now gone.  The "hazing" was deemed to be anti-PC and "degrading" to the sailors.

 

In the military, generally speaking a person with the rank of E-7 or above is referred to as an NCO (Non Commissioned Officer).  In other branches it might be at a lower rank, but in the Navy it's E-7.  Contrary to what most people think, it's not the officers that make the Navy work, it's the Chiefs.  I suspect that it's the same in every other branch of the military.  It's the NCO's that actually do the work and make things happen.

 

When it comes to the retirement of an NCO, especially one with 20+ years serving, I have a real problem when any Commander or anyone else tries to censor his retirement ceremony in order to be PC.  The NCO deserves his retirement ceremony however he wants it.  If someone serves our country for 20+ years in perhaps one of the most challenging jobs ever, he deserves to leave "his way", not the PC way.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Fair enough, and I appreciate your clarification of certain military protocols and structure about which I am admittedly unaware. Having said that, I can imagine a few things that would not be allowed, starting with strippers. 

 

There is clearly a history between these two men (Rodriguez and the unit commander). If it was all about religious content in the ceremony, I agree with the Air Force spokesperson, the ceremony should acknowledge the retiree's wishes, within reason (again, strippers, etc.).

 

LOL.  Believe it or not, there used to be a time when strippers were allowed.  Did you know that they were "regulars" at the base club on NAS Jax?

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

LOL.  Believe it or not, there used to be a time when strippers were allowed.  Did you know that they were "regulars" at the base club on NAS Jax?

 

Where do you think I saw my first one?

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Where do you think I saw my first one?

So many answers, so few that don't end in a ban.


...Chuck E. Cheese?

---

 

I can only speak from a perspective coming from the Navy.  There used to be traditions that we followed and did for various reasons.  The core values of a Navy member used to be Honor, Courage and Commitment.  I see it being stripped away little-by-little.  So much of it is gone.

 

As a small example that people that have never done so would probably not understand.  When a member achieves the rank of E-7 or in the Navy Chief Petty Officer, they used to go through a process called "initiation".  Initiation did include a lot of "hazing" but the reason for it was to teach humility as the member rises to the position of leadership.  That tradition is now gone.  The "hazing" was deemed to be anti-PC and "degrading" to the sailors.

 

In the military, generally speaking a person with the rank of E-7 or above is referred to as an NCO (Non Commissioned Officer).  In other branches it might be at a lower rank, but in the Navy it's E-7.  Contrary to what most people think, it's not the officers that make the Navy work, it's the Chiefs.  I suspect that it's the same in every other branch of the military.  It's the NCO's that actually do the work and make things happen.

 

When it comes to the retirement of an NCO, especially one with 20+ years serving, I have a real problem when any Commander or anyone else tries to censor his retirement ceremony in order to be PC.  The NCO deserves his retirement ceremony however he wants it.  If someone serves our country for 20+ years in perhaps one of the most challenging jobs ever, he deserves to leave "his way", not the PC way.

In the Army E-7 and above are considered senior NCO's and are most definitely the workhorses of the Army's senior enlisted. If they have served 20+ years in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and can't have who they want to speak as well as what is spoken then that's just ridiculous. They EARNED it. And the fellow we're talking about has done numerous ceremonies so if the unit commander had a seemingly personal issue with him he should have kept his military bearing, swallowed his pride and let the guy do what the retiring fellow wanted him to do. If you're so offended by the word God or a ceremony religious in nature then maybe being a unit commander isn't the job for you because your job is to look after all your soldiers, not just the ones you agree with.

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Crap, you've gone full jj. There's no saving you now. RIP intelligent posts from Jib.


*edit: you might have surpassed jj. At least his posts have some logic and reason to them instead of partisan clickbait.

I ain't gone say it NO MO! Don't make me put on my sunglasses!

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I ain't gone say it NO MO! Don't make me put on my sunglasses!

You whooshed me there. Congrats.

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For those interested in a follow up to the event.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/milit.../86243824/

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For those interested in a follow up to the event.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/milit.../86243824/

 

For some of our liberal friends that don't "get it", there's an interesting paragraph that pretty much backs up my statements.

 

 

Air Force personnel may use a flag folding ceremony script that is religious for retirement ceremonies," the Air Force said in a statement to Air Force Times. "Since retirement ceremonies are personal in nature, the script preference for a flag folding ceremony is at the discretion of the individual being honored and represents the member’s views, not those of the Air Force. The Air Force places the highest value of the rights of its personnel in matters of religion and facilitates the free exercise of religion by its members.

 

 

For some of our other liberal friends that don't think that the word "God" has anything to do with it, there's this.

 

 

Berry said in the letter that Lt. Col. Michael Sovitsky, the commanding officer of the 749th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron at Travis, tried to stop Rodriguez from attending Roberson’s retirement ceremony or delivering the speech once he learned Rodriguez planned to deliver a speech that referenced God
.

 
Berry said that when Sovitsky found out he could not bar Rodriguez from attending the retirement ceremony as a guest, he told Roberson not to allow Rodriguez to speak. Roberson told Sovitsky he would not change his plans.
 
The letter said that Rodriguez and Roberson tried to resolve the conflict before the retirement day, and offered to place signs on the auditorium doors saying that the word “God” would be referenced during the ceremony.
 
Berry said in the letter that Sovitsky either told the NCOs to throw Rodriguez out, or the NCOs acted on their own and Sovitsky did not stop them. Either way, Berry said, Sovitsky caused or allowed Air Force members to “intentionally [violate] the constitutional rights of a private American citizen.”
 

 

It looks to me like Lt. Col Michael Sovitsky will probably be "retiring" pretty soon, if the military operates the same way that it did when I was a member.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

For some of our liberal friends that don't "get it", there's an interesting paragraph that pretty much backs up my statements.

 

 

 

For some of our other liberal friends that don't think that the word "God" has anything to do with it, there's this.

 

 

It looks to me like Lt. Col Michael Sovitsky will probably be "retiring" pretty soon, if the military operates the same way that it did when I was a member.

 

 

While I don't deny it doesn't look good for Sovitsky,  the statements you highlighted in bold text and cite as proof Rodriguez was removed for using the word "God" are the words of Michael Berry, the attorney for First Liberty Institute, not the Air Force. If the Air Force discovers what Berry says is true, Sovitsky should "retire."

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

While I don't deny it doesn't look good for Sovitsky,  the statements you highlighted in bold text and cite as proof Rodriguez was removed for using the word "God" are the words of Michael Berry, the attorney for First Liberty Institute, not the Air Force. If the Air Force discovers what Berry says is true, Sovitsky should "retire."

In the last 3-5 years, the Air Force has become very anti religious expression in an official capacity. So much so, they nearly eliminated the Chaplain corps. What Michael Berry states about Rodriquez being removed for the word "God" are in fact correct. Sgt. Rodriguez is well know in Air Force circles for his rendition of the flag folding ceremony and appeared at the request of the retiree. Lt. Col Sovitsky tried to go as far as getting Sgt. Rodriguez banned from base. What isn't commonly known is that Sgt. Rodriquez's rendition takes place after the "official" retirement ceremony in an attempt to avoid this type of scrutiny.

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In the last 3-5 years, the Air Force has become very anti religious expression in an official capacity. So much so, they nearly eliminated the Chaplain corps. What Michael Berry states about Rodriquez being removed for the word "God" are in fact correct. Sgt. Rodriguez is well know in Air Force circles for his rendition of the flag folding ceremony and appeared at the request of the retiree. Lt. Col Sovitsky tried to go as far as getting Sgt. Rodriguez banned from base. What isn't commonly known is that Sgt. Rodriquez's rendition takes place after the "official" retirement ceremony in an attempt to avoid this type of scrutiny.

Yes, I read all that, it was reported in the links provided in the OP. While I don't think removing religious references in official ceremonies is a bad thing, the Air Force has confirmed it has no objections to it in retirement ceremonies, so it's not really relevant. It may be what Berry says is true, my point was quoting him wasn't proof.


What I find interesting is the conflict between the unit commander and Rodriguez. The rules seem obvious, it's hard to imagine how things escalated to the confrontation we saw in the video.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Yes, I read all that, it was reported in the links provided in the OP. While I don't think removing religious references in official ceremonies is a bad thing, the Air Force has confirmed it has no objections to it in retirement ceremonies, so it's not really relevant. It may be what Berry says is true, my point was quoting him wasn't proof.

What I find interesting is the conflict between the unit commander and Rodriguez. The rules seem obvious, it's hard to imagine how things escalated to the confrontation we saw in the video.

The Air Force did make a public statement as such, but I asure you that behind the curtain it isn't so black and white. One has to question why it took so long for the A.F. to make a public statement if the rules are so obvious. In any case, the issue goes way beyond the reading. Sgt Ridriguez used to work under this commander previously and there are years of bad blood.

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