Lol whoa there.


Nobody has to go out and get a new Prius.


Is a 2005 Honda Civic affordable enough?

 

It might be depending on the circumstances.  How many miles on said 2005 Honda Civic and how far must a person travel to work?  A vehicle that old is going to eventually break down and have problems.  I recently sold my older 2003 Dodge Ram pickup and bought a 2015 Ford F-150 solely because I was tired of having to pay for repairs.  I do get better gas mileage along with better reliability.  However, some people just can't afford to do that.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I feel for your husband.  I worked for a while in St. Augustine which was about a 45 mile one way commute for me and I hated it (the commute not the job).  On top of it, try having to cross the Buckman Bridge going east early morning (around 6:00 AM) and crossing going west in early afternoon (around 5:00 PM).

Oh, the Buckman! I hated that damn bridge. That and the Fuller Warren before they rebuilt it. Who puts a freaking drawbridge on an interstate??

 

My husband keeps his eye out for jobs closer to home but his is a specialized field he's been in for 20+ years so he can't work just anywhere with his certifications. Our home is paid for so moving is not an option unless I am employed- and paid well- in the same area he works.

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Lol whoa there.


Nobody has to go out and get a new Prius.


Is a 2005 Honda Civic affordable enough?

A 2005 Honda Civic is around €3,500 at the lowest where I live. To some people that is too much, even assuming the maintenance costs aren't going to bury them.

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It might be depending on the circumstances.  How many miles on said 2005 Honda Civic and how far must a person travel to work?  A vehicle that old is going to eventually break down and have problems.  I recently sold my older 2003 Dodge Ram pickup and bought a 2015 Ford F-150 solely because I was tired of having to pay for repairs.  I do get better gas mileage along with better reliability.  However, some people just can't afford to do that.

If this person has a nice new gas guzzler, they can sell it and buy a nice new gas saver.


If they have an old broken down gas guzzler, they can sell it and buy an old broken down gas saver.


There is no inherent cost difference between the two styles of car/truck. If you have something that gets less than average mileage, you can find the better than average equivalent for minimal difference in cost.

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A 2005 Honda Civic is around €3,500 at the lowest where I live. To some people that is too much, even assuming the maintenance costs aren't going to bury them.

But they're already driving something right? So... they sell that? Assuming it's a running vehicle, it's not some insurmountable difference.

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 it's not some insurmountable difference.

Yes it is. When your at the bottom of the income pyramid you are literally living paycheck to paycheck. There are no savings or nest-egg to fall back on. Selling the car might bring in $1,000 but there's no way you can make up the remaining $2,500. I know it difficult to comprehend and thankfully I've never been in that position but the circle of poverty is vicious and almost impossible to break free from. 

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Yes it is. When your at the bottom of the income pyramid you are literally living paycheck to paycheck. There are no savings or nest-egg to fall back on. Selling the car might bring in $1,000 but there's no way you can make up the remaining $2,500. I know it difficult to comprehend and thankfully I've never been in that position but the circle of poverty is vicious and almost impossible to break free from.

I mean I guess if you cherry pick a situation where you drive a $1000 car, sure.

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If this person has a nice new gas guzzler, they can sell it and buy a nice new gas saver.


If they have an old broken down gas guzzler, they can sell it and buy an old broken down gas saver.


There is no inherent cost difference between the two styles of car/truck. If you have something that gets less than average mileage, you can find the better than average equivalent for minimal difference in cost.

 

I don't know of many low income people that have a "nice new" vehicle of any kind.  If they have an "old broken down gas guzzler" then they probably really can't afford a car payment on an "old broken down gas saver".  Either way, the maintenance costs alone would drown them.

 

However, that hypothetical person has to pay the same price and the same taxes to put fuel into the vehicle.  Odds are, if it's a "broken down" type of vehicle they have to add oil or other fluids as well.  So how much more are they being taxed?

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

If they have an "old broken down gas guzzler" then they probably really can't afford a car payment on an "old broken down gas saver".  Either way, the maintenance costs alone would drown them.

Hypothetically, they're already paying high maintenance cost on the current vehicle.


You understand I'm not advocating that anyone buy a car in addition to the one they have right? Like I said, there is no inherent difference in value between either type of vehicle.


If you have a $1000 gas guzzler, go get a $1000 gas saver. If you have a $5000 gas guzzler, go get yourself a $5000 gas saver. Could someone be in a situation where that's not feasible? Sure. But we're talking about a group of people that are spending 16.6% percent of their income on restaurants. Let's not act like this is an impossible situation for the group as a whole that's being discussed.

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Hypothetically, they're already paying high maintenance cost on the current vehicle.


You understand I'm not advocating that anyone buy a car in addition to the one they have right? Like I said, there is no inherent difference in value between either type of vehicle.


If you have a $1000 gas guzzler, go get a $1000 gas saver. If you have a $5000 gas guzzler, go get yourself a $5000 gas saver. Could someone be in a situation where that's not feasible? Sure. But we're talking about a group of people that are spending 16.6% percent of their income on restaurants. Let's not act like this is an impossible situation for the group as a whole that's being discussed.

 

That has a lot to do with the problem.

 

I don't want to be real judgmental here, but it has to be said.  If you're driving around in a $1000 car or even a $5000 car, you probably shouldn't be spending so much money eating out.  Getting back to your point though, show me an affordable $5000 car that gets great gas mileage.  Explain how somebody on the lower end of the pay scale would be able to pay for this.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

That has a lot to do with the problem.

 

I don't want to be real judgmental here, but it has to be said.  If you're driving around in a $1000 car or even a $5000 car, you probably shouldn't be spending so much money eating out.  Getting back to your point though, show me an affordable $5000 car that gets great gas mileage.  Explain how somebody on the lower end of the pay scale would be able to pay for this.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0'>http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0</a>


31/35 MPG.


Bottom line. These are adult people we're speaking about. For the most part you choose what type of car you own. You guys are acting as if someone forces a certain car on these people and it's impossible to change the situation.


When these people die how do they fit the cars in the same casket? I mean, let's be real here, even poor people buy cars at some point.


If a person owns a car on the relative low side of fuel economy, and can't find a way to sell it and get a car of similar value/dependability on the relative high side of fuel economy, they are either a very special case or have much bigger problems than fuel taxes.

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0'>http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0</a>


31/35 MPG.


Bottom line. These are adult people we're speaking about. For the most part you choose what type of car you own. You guys are acting as if someone forces a certain car on these people and it's impossible to change the situation.


When these people die how do they fit the cars in the same casket? I mean, let's be real here, even poor people buy cars at some point.


If a person owns a car on the relative low side of fuel economy, and can't find a way to sell it and get a car of similar value/dependability on the relative high side of fuel economy, they are either a very special case or have much bigger problems than fuel taxes.

 

A Scion? Please allow even the poor a modicum of dignity.

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

I came across this article today while watching the stock market.  It brings up some interesting points that I thought would make for good discussion.

 

What stuck out to me the most is the chart that they show regarding how people spend their money.  There isn't much variation on "restaurants" as far as how much of a percentage of income is spent.  That's probably a whole other discussion in itself.

 

The focus of the article is on fuel which is taxed higher than any other product in the index.  Is it possible that lower income people are indirectly taxed more heavily?  When you put gas in your car, pay your utility bills or even pay for a service, the tax is something that you pay.

 

What if taxes on fuel, including the "taxes on corporations" such as Exxon or BP was reduced?

then they would increase other taxes like property taxes, fees to renew auto registrations maybe even invent new taxes to cover the loss...I'm all for cutting taxes but when they do, there is less revenue created for he government, so they have to make it up somewhere

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B'>][]]&listingId=403433987&Log=0]</a><a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt='>http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=</a>[SCION[XB[]][]]&listingId=403433987&Log=0

31/35 MPG.

Bottom line. These are adult people we're speaking about. For the most part you choose what type of car you own. You guys are acting as if someone forces a certain car on these people and it's impossible to change the situation.

When these people die how do they fit the cars in the same casket? I mean, let's be real here, even poor people buy cars at some point.

If a person owns a car on the relative low side of fuel economy, and can't find a way to sell it and get a car of similar value/dependability on the relative high side of fuel economy, they are either a very special case or have much bigger problems than fuel taxes.

Apparently you have never been on the low end of the income scale or had medical bills to keep up with so as to not ruin your credit. And if you have you've forgotten what it's like.


And I am not going to sell my dependable truck that I know will get me where I need to go for a car I don't know jack about. To me that is just stupid.

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Apparently you have never been on the low end of the income scale or had medical bills to keep up with so as to not ruin your credit. And if you have you've forgotten what it's like.

And I am not going to sell my dependable truck that I know will get me where I need to go for a car I don't know jack about. To me that is just stupid.

I'm sorry, am I insulting you in some way by saying people can choose the type of car they want to drive?


I didn't say every poor person in the country needs to go out and buy a specific type of car. Nor did I suggest that it's a cure-all for people that have a tight budget.


I said simply, fuel costs are not fixed and the type of car someone owns can factor in. I also suggested that if fuel cost are a real problem, someone can get a car with better mileage. I think it's also clearly implied in my post that it's a personal choice.


You choose familiarity over potential gas savings. That's fine, knock yourself out lady. I literally pointed out in the post you're quoting that adults are free to drive what they want.


But I don't agree that it's some impossible thing to do (once again, if one feels the need) for the bottom 20% as a whole. Most grown people on the road have bought or will buy a car they freely choose at some point. The vast majority of people multiple times.


To suggest someone is enslaved to a particular type of car for the rest of their life, to me, is stupid.

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0'>http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0</a>


31/35 MPG.


Bottom line. These are adult people we're speaking about. For the most part you choose what type of car you own. You guys are acting as if someone forces a certain car on these people and it's impossible to change the situation.


When these people die how do they fit the cars in the same casket? I mean, let's be real here, even poor people buy cars at some point.


If a person owns a car on the relative low side of fuel economy, and can't find a way to sell it and get a car of similar value/dependability on the relative high side of fuel economy, they are either a very special case or have much bigger problems than fuel taxes.

Do you really not comprehend that there are people who do not have $4,900 to buy a car? Not even when they sell their current vehicle? 

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Do you really not comprehend that there are people who do not have $4,900 to buy a car? Not even when they sell their current vehicle?

Can you read?


He asked for a car in that price range. I found one.


I'm very sure I did not state everyone can afford to spend $4,900 on a car. Please read more carefully.

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0'>http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2017&modelCode1=XB&showcaseOwnerId=0&makeCode1=SCION&startYear=1981&listingType=used&firstRecord=0&listingTypes=used&maxPrice=5000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BSCION%5BXB%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=403433987&Log=0</a>


31/35 MPG.


Bottom line. These are adult people we're speaking about. For the most part you choose what type of car you own. You guys are acting as if someone forces a certain car on these people and it's impossible to change the situation.


When these people die how do they fit the cars in the same casket? I mean, let's be real here, even poor people buy cars at some point.


If a person owns a car on the relative low side of fuel economy, and can't find a way to sell it and get a car of similar value/dependability on the relative high side of fuel economy, they are either a very special case or have much bigger problems than fuel taxes.

 

I think the reality of the situation for those at the lower end of the income scale is somewhat more challenging than you realize.  Circumstances may dictate what type of car they drive more than personal preference.  For families with more than 3 children, most vehicles are simply impossible.  Vans or suv's with 3rd row seating are almost the only option.  Many self-employed workers (contractors/landscapers, etc.) trying to get by with one car, require a van or pickup.  Beyond the straight dimensional requirements is the safety factor.  Do you really want to put your kids in a tin can on wheels and go out on the highway surrounded by idiots texting while they're driving at 70 mph? 

 

As DragonFury pointed out, poverty is a vicious cycle and almost impossible to break free from.  The "system" absolutely hammers those whom, most often, can least afford it.  Late on a payment and you're hit with a penalty.  Put cash in the bank and you'll make 1 percent, pay the government late and they'll charge you 12.  Subprime auto finance rates typically run 15-25%.  Choices for these people aren't always easy and options aren't ever plentiful.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

I think the reality of the situation for those at the lower end of the income scale is somewhat more challenging than you realize.  Circumstances may dictate what type of car they drive more than personal preference.  For families with more than 3 children, most vehicles are simply impossible.  Vans or suv's with 3rd row seating are almost the only option.  Many self-employed workers (contractors/landscapers, etc.) trying to get by with one car, require a van or pickup.  Beyond the straight dimensional requirements is the safety factor.  Do you really want to put your kids in a tin can on wheels and go out on the highway surrounded by idiots texting while they're driving at 70 mph? 

 

As DragonFury pointed out, poverty is a vicious cycle and almost impossible to break free from.  The "system" absolutely hammers those whom, most often, can least afford it.  Late on a payment and you're hit with a penalty.  Put cash in the bank and you'll make 1 percent, pay the government late and they'll charge you 12.  Subprime auto finance rates typically run 15-25%.  Choices for these people aren't always easy and options aren't ever plentiful.

Thank you for respectfully disagreeing.


I fully realize that for some it is a challenge, and that there are exceptions. Again, all I said is that if someone feels like it's a major concern, they can get a car with better mileage. We were talking about a group of people that spend nearly 1/5 of their income on restaurants. 20% of the population. It's a large group, and the group as a whole obviously has some descretionary income.


Are there people in that group that just can't possibly find a way to switch cars? I'm sure there are, no one is denying that. For most of that group, do I feel like if they wanted to, could they find a way to get a more efficient car of roughly similar value? Yes I do. Did I say it was easy or that they had $xxxx in their bank account to make it happen overnight? No I didn't.


Again, not everyone in that group. Most of it, if not the vast majority.


Also, If you have 6 kids, you're going to prioritize making one trip everywhere, over a per mile fuel savings. That's pretty obvious I think. If someone prioritizes a safety factor? Good on them, I hope they drive a Sherman tank. Value dependability? Drive your car until it dies. I would say that for those folks, it's not a major or I should say primary, concern.


No one said everyone or anyone for that matter has to do this. I said if fuel cost are a major concern, (you can) get a car with better mileage. The point being, that fuel cost are not a fixed cost. A person has some choice in the matter.


I think some here (not you necessarily) are reading more into it, and/or taking this as a personal affront.

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A good quality folding bike only costs $300.....

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