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MoJagFan · 02-26-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:What bothers me is that we haven't had decent FS play since Nelson's rookie year.

Man we've really sucked at drafting as a franchise overall.

No stud pass rushing DE since Brackens (though Fowler and Ngakoue are pending, with Ngakoue showing more production right now).

No stud LT since Boselli.

Went a decade after Jimmy Smith's retirement before getting another 1000 yard receiver.

Sigh...

This goes to how spoiled we were to start this franchise. How the heck do you get a true HOF talent at LT and then replace them? I think that is part of the issue, we snapped at people and propped them up unfairly. This team has been seriously snake bitten at the WR position for a long time.

It is very odd that we repeatedly took projects at WR and questionable character instead of going for solid. All around the saga of Justin Blackmon is the real tragedy. That guy had freakish gifts destroyed by substance issues.

The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Predator · 02-26-2017, 12:36 PM

Quote:This goes to how spoiled we were to start this franchise. How the heck do you get a true HOF talent at LT and then replace them? I think that is part of the issue, we snapped at people and propped them up unfairly. This team has been seriously snake bitten at the WR position for a long time.

It is very odd that we repeatedly took projects at WR and questionable character instead of going for solid. All around the saga of Justin Blackmon is the real tragedy. That guy had freakish gifts destroyed by substance issues.

We are no longer snake bitten at WR.

Pass rush is where we have been hurting the most.

Bullseye · 02-26-2017, 12:39 PM

Quote:This goes to how spoiled we were to start this franchise. How the heck do you get a true HOF talent at LT and then replace them? I think that is part of the issue, we snapped at people and propped them up unfairly. This team has been seriously snake bitten at the WR position for a long time.

It is very odd that we repeatedly took projects at WR and questionable character instead of going for solid. All around the saga of Justin Blackmon is the real tragedy. That guy had freakish gifts destroyed by substance issues.

Starting off, we were spoiled.

I can't say as a fan base, we are spoiled now.

Our history of WR is strange. We started off really lucky to get Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell (and to a lesser degree Andre Rison and Willie Jackson). But we couldn't draft a competent receiver to save our lives. We stocked up at WR at the bottom of the 1996 draft and got nothing out of that group. Barlow was a good punt returner, but offered nothing at WR. In 2000, trying to replicate the Rams, took a chance on R. Jay Soward, and it blew up in our faces. Reggie Williams and Matt Jones followed and failed afterwards, leading to Justin Blackmon who teased dominance only to self sabotage with substance dependence. And now we lucked out on Hurns and Lee and Robinson.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

jrvegeeta · 02-26-2017, 06:29 PM

Quote:Starting off, we were spoiled.

I can't say as a fan base, we are spoiled now.

Completely agree. It might also be the reason why other fan bases seem to love seeing us suffer (and so eager to see the team relocated to London, SD, Las Vegas, the moon, alpha centuri, etc). We won early on and didn't "take our lumps" like a good little young franchise.

One thing that's going to happen when this team starts winning big: everyone is going to hate us - maybe even more than NE. Bullies don't like it when they lose their favorite punching bag and usually react very poorly to it.

Bullseye · 02-26-2017, 06:44 PM

Quote:Completely agree. It might also be the reason why other fan bases seem to love seeing us suffer (and so eager to see the team relocated to London, SD, Las Vegas, the moon, alpha centuri, etc). We won early on and didn't "take our lumps" like a good little young franchise.

One thing that's going to happen when this team starts winning big: everyone is going to hate us - maybe even more than NE. Bullies don't like it when they lose their favorite punching bag and usually react very poorly to it.

It's going to be so sweet, too.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

jrvegeeta · 02-26-2017, 06:47 PM

Quote:It's going to be so sweet, too.

Yes, it is. Yes it is.....

Dockerill91 · 02-27-2017, 04:07 AM

Quote:I am with you dude. Not giving up on Fowler yet. It's too early. Bortles has this year to get it done though. And I think that's more than fair with it being his 4th NFL season.

I'm not sure why people are, overall he looked pretty good he did create pressure and was good in the run game.

He just needs a little more finesse not to overrun the quarterback and he would of double his sack total.

SuperJville · 02-27-2017, 08:44 AM

well - to be fair, the Jags seem to be doing exactly what the OP is talking about. Some fans may not be as patient - but we can't blame the Jags for not trying.

They're giving Bortles more than likely next year to show that he is developing.

I think the reason people are pessimistic is because some of the things Blake struggles with are not going to get better. He's not going to learn how to throw spirals consistently now.

leopold332002 · 02-27-2017, 09:00 AM

Quote:well - to be fair, the Jags seem to be doing exactly what the OP is talking about. Some fans may not be as patient - but we can't blame the Jags for not trying.

They're giving Bortles more than likely next year to show that he is developing.

I think the reason people are pessimistic is because some of the things Blake struggles with are not going to get better. He's not going to learn how to throw spirals consistently now.

He threw spirals in 2015 so that is a lie plus Peyton manning threw ducks majority of his career and is a hall of famer. I'm not comparing the two as players but how they threw the football.

StitchJones · 02-27-2017, 09:41 AM

My own opinion for this trend here is that in the case of Bortles, he has had no one of a higher caliber to sit and learn from. Plus keep in mind that he was drafted as 'the franchise quarterback'. When you get that kind of a tag put on you, it carries some expectations along with it. Is it the fault of the fans that Bortles hasn't lived up to those expectations? No. Is it Bortles fault that he got that tag put on him before he had a chance to develope? No. It's the fault of the person(s) who dubbed him with that tag so soon out of the gate.

In years gone by, it was normative for players to be drafted and given a certain amount of time to 'develop'. The Jaguars situation is not conducive to that (particularly when it comes to the quarterback) for some years now. Our long losing trend has created a feeling of desperation among many fans which does not lend itself to being patient any longer. With other teams seemingly being able to 'turn the corner' on their losing ways overnight, it has caused many here to feel, 'why not us?' Patience for 'developing players' has worn very thin here.

The lack of patience and a history of 'busts' at the DE position as pass rushers is also what drives the woe and cry with Dante Fowler. The man was hyped to be the greatest thing since sliced bread! Is it the fans fault that he hasn't lived up to the hype? No. Is it his fault that he hasn't lived up to the hype? No. Again; it's the fault of those who 'hyped' him so highly.

As fans, we have to temper our expectations; given our lowly team history over the past ten years or so, this is no easy task. Add to this the promises made by the current team owner (hype?) and again, we are primed and ready for a winner... not more in a long line of losing seasons and lame excuses from equally lame players.

SuperJville · 02-27-2017, 10:54 AM

Quote:He threw spirals in 2015 so that is a lie plus Peyton manning threw ducks majority of his career and is a hall of famer. I'm not comparing the two as players but how they threw the football.

nah, he didn't.. even in 2015 it was laughably bad - but he DID have better mechanics. I'm not saying he is unable to throw a spiral, but he can't do it consistently. In fact, a spiral is basically an anomaly.

Peyton's spiral got worse as he aged (especially after his neck surgeries).

He had a great arm early on - not a perfect spiral every time, but way better than Bortles (even 2015 Bortles)

SuperJville · 02-27-2017, 10:58 AM

it's really not that hard.

when we talk about QBs developing and getting better, what makes them better? Usually it's adapting to the speed of the game, diagnosing defenses, etc. The MENTAL part of the game.

Quarterbacks developing doesn't mean waiting on the off-season to "fix" how you throw the dang football.

**NYC4jags** · 02-27-2017, 11:00 AM

Quote:He threw spirals in 2015 so that is a lie plus Peyton manning threw ducks majority of his career and is a hall of famer. I'm not comparing the two as players but how they threw the football.

Yeah- he actually still threw lots of ducks in 2015 too. BUT - his footwork, hip-turn, and release were all at least marginally better in 2015 and his accuracy (while still suspect) was also better in 2015 as a result.

**NYC4jags** · 02-27-2017, 11:03 AM

Quote:it's really not that hard.

when we talk about QBs developing and getting better, what makes them better? Usually it's adapting to the speed of the game, diagnosing defenses, etc. The MENTAL part of the game.

Quarterbacks developing doesn't mean waiting on the off-season to "fix" how you throw the dang football.

You are right about the mental game. Unfortunately though, Blake needs development there AND he has to fix how he throws the dang ball.

SuperJville · 02-27-2017, 11:05 AM

Quote:You are right about the mental game. Unfortunately though, Blake needs development there AND he has to fix how he throws the dang ball.

oh yeah absolutely. I think Blake can have a marginally successful career - the mental part of the game definitely needs work as well.

my position is that he is always going to be a very limited QB. Even if he masters the mental part of the game (which it appears he isn't close to doing yet), his throwing mechanics are so bad that they are a fatal flaw IMO.

Teal Time Radio · 02-27-2017, 01:42 PM

If Blake is given one more year. Which he did nothing to deserve. He needs to win 8 games.

We cannot afford to draft top 10 again.

Bleeding Teal since 1995. The Icon Teal Time Radio aka ctjags

#Gojags

TheAll22 · 02-27-2017, 04:29 PM

Quote:This is my 40th year as a football fan.

Over the years, I've heard many axioms and clichés to explain various truths about the game we all love.

"Build from the trenches," "Defense wins championships," "run the ball, stop the run," are just a few of the myriad catch phrases used to represent various beliefs and philosophies that govern NFL football.

However, one such phrase seems to be antiquated, if not obsolete, at least in the minds of fans.

That phrase is "draft and develop."

I offer this because when it comes to analyzing young players, the analysis invariably oscillates between two extremes: immediate superstar or absolute bust.

This is evident when reading the board and the names Blake Bortles and Dante Fowler come up for discussion. For a long time, the thought regarding QBs was it takes 4-5 years to develop them. Bortles is in his 4th year, yet there is a sizable number of fans on this board, if not a majority, who have already given up on Bortles as a viable NFL QB. Many of the same fans have already surrendered all hope that Fowler will be anything remotely resembling a viable pass rusher, despite the fact last year was his first on field action and he produced 4 sacks.

Please forgive my considerable cognitive dissonance stemming from these reactions. It exists because many of the players we celebrate today-past and present- and wish our players would develop into- were themselves not immediate superstars. Going into his third season, Troy Aikman had a 14-24 record as a starter, missing all or parts of ten (10) with injury. His TD/INT ratio was 31-46 in that span. He is now in the Hall of Fame. Aaron Rodgers rode the bench his first three years in the league, sitting behind a QB in Brett Favre who garnered no playing time his first year and was deemed such an incorrigible party animal, his original team, Atlanta, traded him away. There have been fans on this board who have advocated signing 37 year old Tony Romo to supplant Tony Romo as the starter here. But Romo did not become a starter until his 3rd year. His TD-INT ratio from his second year as a starter was 36-19. Those same numbers regressed to 26-14 the next year. For comparison, Bortles' 2nd year numbers were 35-18, and last year's totals were 23-16.

The irony continues with every other position, including DE. The current AFC South champs, the Houston Texans, feature two defensive ends who are dominant in J.J. Watt and Jadeveon Clowney. Watt had five sacks his rookie year, and Clowney was viewed as a bust until this year. Super Bowl LI, just played about 3 weeks ago, featured the Atlanta Falcons, who drafted another edge rusher in the same draft class as Dante Fowler in Vic Beasley. Beasley, who did not suffer an ACL tear, notched the same 4 sacks as a rookie as Fowler did last year. However, in his second year, he led the league in sacks with 15.5.

If those teams used the same logic as the fans who are clamoring for Fowler and Bortles to be banished to the scrap heap, they never would have reaped the benefits they did in sticking with those players. Instead, they would have resembled Atlanta in the aftermath of trading Brett Favre.

Am I saying definitively Bortles and/or Fowler will develop into the players I mentioned above? No. Those are at least very good, if not great players.

Is it possible that Bortles and Fowler will fall short of expectations? Absolutely.

But given the countless man hours the team invested in scouting all of the available players, and the draft pick investment used in acquiring them, can anyone give a compelling reason why their development should be abandoned altogether at this stage? Is there any reason why impatience should preclude the chance for these guys to improve the way the above players did? Why do the principles of player development that produced Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders not apply to Bortles and Fowler?

You have several competing issues here Bullsye:



1. Cliches happen over time in football because there are so many philosophies regarding how to build a franchise in relation to what sounds good and how winning teams actually come to be



2. Obviously multiple builds have worked and for many reasons



3. Eras, Team Types, Team ages overlap



4. The NCAA is an secret/not so secret developmental league

- Don't be fooled, this is where development is happening the most, this is where kids are being taught football and today's players are more prepared than ever

- this is the beginning of the impatience for player development once players are already in the NFL



5. Don't mistake anomalies for relative variables

- Brady was a 6th round pick is an extreme example for why you still don't wait 6 rounds to find a QB

- The Redskins are the constant example of bad free agent spending

- Aaron Rodgers is an example of a QB completely changing his throwing motion and mechanics

- Adrian Peterson is bad example of a player coming back from ACL surgery



Ultimately there is no easy or clear answer to your question because there are two options for Borltes and 80's ways of getting to those conclusions

For me it's pretty simple. Bortles has physiological (not mechanical) flaws that make him unable to progress fundamentally and technically and it's very hard for anyone to change those types of issues. I questioned his accuracy last off-season during the hype-fest surrounding the offense and I let it slide like many here did thinking the team was in good enough shape to be successful even if that meant 7-9 wins. We saw that his flaws were too much to overcome this season. Even if Borltes is at his peak, when is the lazy throw going to cost this team serious games. We can't have good games against garbage teams and consider it a success or progress like in the past. that is something that this Coughlin era is supposed to overcome and the only reason there is commitment to Bortles right now is the lack of draft-able options right now.