Magnets schools are schools in bad neighborhoods that have the best teachers and best curriculums (like IB). They attract students from all over Duval to come. Half the kids are from the neighborhood. Other half are piped in. They are public schools.

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Magnet schools are schools that offer specialized programs. For example, medical magnets offer a series of classes that prep students for a career in medicine. Other examples include, biotechnology, naval ROTC, Air Force ROTC, computer engineering. Peterson offers a culinary arts program. Schools also offer AICE or IB (rigorous academic programs) as well as Computers and even drone flying

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

Magnet schools are schools that offer specialized programs. For example, medical magnets offer a series of classes that prep students for a career in medicine. Other examples include, biotechnology, naval ROTC, Air Force ROTC, computer engineering. Peterson offers a culinary arts program. Schools also offer AICE or IB (rigorous academic programs) as well as Computers and even drone flying

 

Just to add to this, I went to Wolfson 2 years and they had various business courses and some law thingamajig.  Went to A Philip Randolph (Peterson's sister school whatever in the hell that means) afterwards they had more trade options than Wolfson: construction (hvac, electrical, drafting, carpentry, plumbing), IT, medical something or another, and cosmetology.  Had friends in construction that was working during senior year (if you were working they let you out early), they were making like $15/hr starting which was like twice minimum wage and better than what the military was offering.  The only one I keep in contact with is making close to 70k, if I'm not mistaken his employer put him through the apprenticeship program he just had to pay for books or w/e.

 

Of course you could still just go to college if you don't care about the school's offerings which is what I did. 

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Just to add to this, I went to Wolfson 2 years and they had various business courses and some law thingamajig. Went to A Philip Randolph (Peterson's sister school whatever in the hell that means) afterwards they had more trade options than Wolfson: construction (hvac, electrical, drafting, carpentry, plumbing), IT, medical something or another, and cosmetology. Had friends in construction that was working during senior year (if you were working they let you out early), they were making like $15/hr starting which was like twice minimum wage and better than what the military was offering. The only one I keep in contact with is making close to 70k, if I'm not mistaken his employer put him through the apprenticeship program he just had to pay for books or w/e.


Of course you could still just go to college if you don't care about the school's offerings which is what I did.

These programs can be game changers for the kids. We need more opportunities like these. Unfortunately we often think that high school is only for preparing for college.

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

Just to add to this, I went to Wolfson 2 years and they had various business courses and some law thingamajig.  Went to A Philip Randolph (Peterson's sister school whatever in the hell that means) afterwards they had more trade options than Wolfson: construction (hvac, electrical, drafting, carpentry, plumbing), IT, medical something or another, and cosmetology.  Had friends in construction that was working during senior year (if you were working they let you out early), they were making like $15/hr starting which was like twice minimum wage and better than what the military was offering.  The only one I keep in contact with is making close to 70k, if I'm not mistaken his employer put him through the apprenticeship program he just had to pay for books or w/e.

 

Of course you could still just go to college if you don't care about the school's offerings which is what I did. 

Ohhhhhh OK. I went to Peterson and Randolph as well. I kind of feel a little silly now. Thanks for learning me. I took Drafting and design there and that was my leapfrog into engineering. 

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I could easily be as dismissive of Rubio because I don't agree with a free market choise as you are being of Sanders, I am not. Try not to be as well. A discussion was your idea after all. 

 

Education is very important and trades can be taught outside of trade school in community college. Those without education and not just kids but adults as well ought have avenues to get the education they need that will allow them to market themselves. His point is higher education should be easily accessible and I agree. 

 

How does Rubio propose you separate out the kids who are destined for higher education and those that should be put on trade pahts? Is there a clear plan for this or just we need to do better at the levels it's already free at.

 

My current job I have due to knowing people. It's good to know people and have your skills valued. I do think in a lot of areas to much restriction is put on the paper and not on the experience. That is an idea that many fields need to change their viewpoint on. However it's not a replacement for the education system. How many people are going to naturally acquire the the knowledge and experience for sciences, engineering even teaching at some levels for that matter?

 

I don't mean to come across as being dismissive, I'm just pointing out the fact that Bernie Sanders said that he wants public higher education to be "free" paid for by taxing those that are higher up in income.  If you can give me a source where he has some other comprehensive ideas, I'm willing to take a look at it.

 

Regarding your next paragraph, that's what I was pointing out regarding other avenues of education such as free online courses, military experience or even apprenticeships.

 

Finally, addressing your third point, you don't "separate out" kids destined for higher education vs. those going on a trade path.  It's up to individuals to decide for themselves which way they want to go.

 

 

Isn't this in essence just the magnet school program?

 

Pretty much.  One of my sons chose to go to Frank H. Peterson High School and got into their culinary program.  He got a job at the time working at a country club here in Jacksonville, moved on to working at a couple of other upscale establishments in the area and eventually earned a scholarship to a culinary college.  He is now the manager of an establishment in Georgia and earns a pretty good living.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Finally, addressing your third point, you don't "separate out" kids destined for higher education vs. those going on a trade path.

Why not it's what we eventually do anyway. Let's face it by the time they're in high school it becomes pretty obvious which ones are going to get colleges degrees and which ones need a trade. Heck most of the guys I knew growing up, myself included would be 100 times better off if we'd spent the last 2 years of school learning a trade. I was never going to be an engineer, lawyer or doctor.


I'm all for pushing kids into a trade school or training we need more skilled laborers anyways. Instead we graduate 18 years olds that have no business being in college but have no skills to earn a living and face adult life expenses. The kids screwed unless they luck out and someone says hey come learn how to build this or fix this.

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Why not it's what we eventually do anyway. Let's face it by the time they're in high school it becomes pretty obvious which ones are going to get colleges degrees and which ones need a trade. Heck most of the guys I knew growing up, myself included would be 100 times better off if we'd spent the last 2 years of school learning a trade. I was never going to be an engineer, lawyer or doctor.


I'm all for pushing kids into a trade school or training we need more skilled laborers anyways. Instead we graduate 18 years olds that have no business being in college but have no skills to earn a living and face adult life expenses. The kids screwed unless they luck out and someone says hey come learn how to build this or fix this.

 

We don't separate kids into "who goes to college" and "who goes the trade route".  That decision is pretty much the child's and their family to make.

 

If I'm not mistaken, based on other posts/threads that I have read, you are a mechanic.  Would it have been beneficial to you to learn the basics of your skill at an earlier age?  Perhaps you might have already known some of the basics from tinkering around with cars, farm equipment or even a lawn mower engine while growing up.  The point is, is to graduate students from high school that know the difference between a 1/2" wrench and a 9/16" socket or a 10mm wrench and a 14mm socket.  That's simple math.  Many come out of high school that have no real concept of math.  What about an alignment on a car?  A wheel might need to be adjusted 5 degrees in a certain direction.  Again, it's simple math.

 

Another example might be a paralegal.  The skills for that are mostly being able to read and write.  Kids don't have that simple skill coming out of high school.

 

What about becoming an electrician?  What education does someone need to do the job?  Well besides math and the ability to be able to read, they also need to have a basic understanding of electricity (physics).  A plumber, a roofer or even a carpenter has to have basic knowledge of math.

 

My point is that children are graduated out of high school without these basic skills, and they are coming from the public (government) school system.  There are many programs out there right now that people can qualify for, not just those fresh out of high school, that can teach the skills needed to do these jobs.  The problem is, there are far too many that don't have the basic knowledge in order to succeed.

 

This subject is kind of intertwined in K-12 education and further education after traditional schooling.  Regarding the K-12 part, I believe and Marco Rubio has been an advocate of parents being able to have a choice regarding where their children get their K-12 education.  Part of it is in place with the "magnet school" programs and part of it is in place with the school voucher programs.  This gives people a "hand up" rather than a "hand out" when it comes to basic education.

 

When it comes to continuing education, the idea floated regarding college could also apply to trade schools.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I think what Eric is saying is that they eventually get separated out by life.


I kind of like his idea, learning a trade could also help those college students that need to work while they go to school. I absolutely would've jumped on that chance over being a TA and taking guitar class 3 periods my señor year.

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I don't mean to come across as being dismissive, I'm just pointing out the fact that Bernie Sanders said that he wants public higher education to be "free" paid for by taxing those that are higher up in income.  If you can give me a source where he has some other comprehensive ideas, I'm willing to take a look at it.

 

Regarding your next paragraph, that's what I was pointing out regarding other avenues of education such as free online courses, military experience or even apprenticeships.

 

Finally, addressing your third point, you don't "separate out" kids destined for higher education vs. those going on a trade path.  It's up to individuals to decide for themselves which way they want to go.

 

 

 

Pretty much.  One of my sons chose to go to Frank H. Peterson High School and got into their culinary program.  He got a job at the time working at a country club here in Jacksonville, moved on to working at a couple of other upscale establishments in the area and eventually earned a scholarship to a culinary college.  He is now the manager of an establishment in Georgia and earns a pretty good living.

So then what is Rubio's point? I'm genuinely confused by what his point is and not speculation or what you want, as you have said. What is his point since they already chose for themselves whether college or trade is right for them. 

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So then what is Rubio's point? I'm genuinely confused by what his point is and not speculation or what you want, as you have said. What is his point since they already chose for themselves whether college or trade is right for them. 

 

His point is, the K-12 public education system is not working.  Another point that he makes is rather than "free college for all", we should focus on training young people to perhaps take another path in life to fill jobs that are good paying and needed.  Also, those that have or receive knowledge or skills through other than the "traditional means" should be able to have some form of "recognition" similar to a college degree or a certificate to enable them to gain better employment.

 

I would bet that I personally could probably pass the final exams of current EE or CS graduates easily.  I've worked with people that hold both degrees, and I've had to train them.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

His point is, the K-12 public education system is not working.  Another point that he makes is rather than "free college for all", we should focus on training young people to perhaps take another path in life to fill jobs that are good paying and needed.  Also, those that have or receive knowledge or skills through other than the "traditional means" should be able to have some form of "recognition" similar to a college degree or a certificate to enable them to gain better employment.

 

I would bet that I personally could probably pass the final exams of current EE or CS graduates easily.  I've worked with people that hold both degrees, and I've had to train them.

So it's not working. What's the solution? There are already magnet schools so there is the trade. Kids already have a choice between college and trade schools after that and you said it's still their choice. 

 

Why can we not make college free and focus on trades?

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So it's not working. What's the solution? There are already magnet schools so there is the trade. Kids already have a choice between college and trade schools after that and you said it's still their choice. 

 

Why can we not make college free and focus on trades?

 

This again?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

So it's not working. What's the solution? There are already magnet schools so there is the trade. Kids already have a choice between college and trade schools after that and you said it's still their choice. 

 

Why can we not make college free and focus on trades?

 

It's not working and there are already magnet schools in the public school system.  What about private schools and/or home schooling?  This leads us to the voucher system that would give parents the ability to remove their children from the failed public school system and give them a better education through the private system.  Rather than dumping more money into a failed system, why not redirect money into the parent's hands that gives them a choice?

 

Regarding a college education.  Rather than making college "free" I've already posted a solution to the problem that Marco Rubio has proposed.  The alternative that Bernie Sanders proposes is to tax those that earn more to make college "free".  Which is the more sensible solution?

 

Regarding trades, in my experience I've talked with several in the military that did a tour of duty as a recruiter.  They talk about kids that attempt to join the military, but they can't due to not being able to pass the ASVAB.  The ASVAB is kind of a "watered down" version of the SAT that tests for basic knowledge, mechanical aptitude, reasoning, etc.  These are kids that have high school diplomas or GED's which points back to the first part of this post.  These kids are pretty much destined to having to go back towards the trade school route.  In other words, their K-12 "education" has failed them.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

This again?

Do ever have anything to add?

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It's not working and there are already magnet schools in the public school system. What about private schools and/or home schooling? This leads us to the voucher system that would give parents the ability to remove their children from the failed public school system and give them a better education through the private system. Rather than dumping more money into a failed system, why not redirect money into the parent's hands that gives them a choice?


Regarding a college education. Rather than making college "free" I've already posted a solution to the problem that Marco Rubio has proposed. The alternative that Bernie Sanders proposes is to tax those that earn more to make college "free". Which is the more sensible solution?


Regarding trades, in my experience I've talked with several in the military that did a tour of duty as a recruiter. They talk about kids that attempt to join the military, but they can't due to not being able to pass the ASVAB. The ASVAB is kind of a "watered down" version of the SAT that tests for basic knowledge, mechanical aptitude, reasoning, etc. These are kids that have high school diplomas or GED's which points back to the first part of this post. These kids are pretty much destined to having to go back towards the trade school route. In other words, their K-12 "education" has failed them.

So giving government funding from taxes for private k-12 schools is good but not for public colleges so kids can go to college? There is something really flawed with that logic.


Colleges and public schools are different beasts. We are in agreement that the early years systems are flawed and need fixing. However, I want to a private school for K-8. I had a personal interest in space and the sciences. Not only were they secondary to the "education" I was taught but completely contradictory to the actual facts of the universe. I'll leave it up to you to figure what kind of school that was. The point is some kind of standards needs to be in place.

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So giving government funding from taxes for private k-12 schools is good but not for public colleges so kids can go to college? There is something really flawed with that logic.

 

College is not supposed to be required to be successful in life, it's an optional pursuit for those who so choose to invest their time and money in higher education. And we give plenty of public money for kids to go to school. Every kid who enters college applies for (and usually gets) some type of financial aid. The only thing making college "free" does (besides another huge increase in the national debt) is flood the market with degrees that, in turn, devalue them in the marketplace. Kids should get all the education they need in high school to make a living; that they don't is the fault of the system, the parents, and the kid.

 

Want more people to go to college? Take government financing out it and return the college loan system to the private market. Route kids to the Community College system. Increase the number of vocational and trade schools and make tracks through them available for high school Juniors and Seniors. Presto Chango!

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

College is not supposed to be required to be successful in life, it's an optional pursuit for those who so choose to invest their time and money in higher education. And we give plenty of public money for kids to go to school. Every kid who enters college applies for (and usually gets) some type of financial aid. The only thing making college "free" does (besides another huge increase in the national debt) is flood the market with degrees that, in turn, devalue them in the marketplace. Kids should get all the education they need in high school to make a living; that they don't is the fault of the system, the parents, and the kid.


Want more people to go to college? Take government financing out it and return the college loan system to the private market. Route kids to the Community College system. Increase the number of vocational and trade schools and make tracks through them available for high school Juniors and Seniors. Presto Chango!

I'm not sure government financing is the problem. I think 'private' college needs to be redefined. Students who do not belong at, say, Syracuse or Notre Dame, are not going to get accepted, meaning they won't be taking school loans. Private 'colleges' like Everest University, University of Phoenix, who accept anyone under a veil of helping people who 'traditional universities' aren't willing to work with (though they are seemingly more driven by the student loan money they can get) take advantage of the student loan system. Trust me, there are schools that send representatives to underprivileged schools and hand out 'scholarships' based solely on your presence in an attempt to get students (and their student loan money) to attend their schools. Most of these kids should never be accepted to a university, but take out the loans. A year or two later, they are out of college, in debt, without the jobs to pay it back and the 'private university' is sitting on a big pile of government cash.

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

I'm not sure government financing is the problem. I think 'private' college needs to be redefined. Students who do not belong at, say, Syracuse or Notre Dame, are not going to get accepted, meaning they won't be taking school loans. Private 'colleges' like Everest University, University of Phoenix, who accept anyone under a veil of helping people who 'traditional universities' aren't willing to work with (though they are seemingly more driven by the student loan money they can get) take advantage of the student loan system. Trust me, there are schools that send representatives to underprivileged schools and hand out 'scholarships' based solely on your presence in an attempt to get students (and their student loan money) to attend their schools. Most of these kids should never be accepted to a university, but take out the loans. A year or two later, they are out of college, in debt, without the jobs to pay it back and the 'private university' is sitting on a big pile of government cash.

So government dollars lead to a corrupt system. That isn't just a problem in higher educatiom.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

So government dollars lead to a corrupt system. That isn't just a problem in higher educatiom.

I'm not sure the existence of government money is the problem, but rather the people who exploit it. I might be the only one who thinks this, but i believe the people who take advantage of the programs should be held accountable, as opposed to abolishing the program itself.


I know people disagree with that sentiment whether it is college loans, food stamps, unemployment, tax breaks for corporations etc. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus