Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Ephedrin?

I don't know what that is but I'm assuming it's a supplement that did kill someone? If so I stand corrected I simply meant supplements like the vitamins you see at walgreens that are just junk vitamins.

Quote:You are thinking of how you can protect the insurance companies and the wealth of the entire medical industry along side making healthcare affordable. That is impossible. Those in the business of making money have no interest in anything other than making more money. The free market also would have denied people coverage for pre existing conditions leaving them in the lurch with no way to pay for health care. How do we know this? Because the free market already did this. Just because liberals don't thing the free market should be completely unfettered as conservatives do does not mean they hate capitalism or the free market. They just see that an unregulated free market trends toward monopolies which are never good for a society. 

 

The free market would've NEVER created the absurd third party payer system we have today. It's completely the result of liberal economic policies that we're in this mess and you guys can't see that more of the same only gets more of the same.

Quote:The free market would've NEVER created the absurd third party payer system we have today. It's completely the result of liberal economic policies that we're in this mess and you guys can't see that more of the same only gets more of the same.

The free market denied coverage. The market causes useful drugs for deadly deseases to cost a fortune. The free market causes people to go bankrupt simply to stay alive. The free market as conservatives would have it at work.

Quote:The free market denied coverage. The market causes useful drugs for deadly deseases to cost a fortune. The free market causes people to go bankrupt simply to stay alive. The free market as conservatives would have it at work.

I think Free market as conservatives would have it work just as they want it to.  If you can't afford the medicine, then that's the free market at work.  You should have worked harder to afford the medicine when you were well.    Or they should hope people are (if they choose to be) charitable and provide them with help.

Quote:I think Free market as conservatives would have it work just as they want it to. If you can't afford the medicine, then that's the free market at work. You should have worked harder to afford the medicine when you were well. Or they should hope people are (if they choose to be) charitable and provide them with help.

Its not like the free market is inherently evil. It just trends towards monopolies and profit gains to the detriment if consumers. History has shown intelligent regulation is sometimes needed to keep it in check. Unfortunately the market buys the regulations sooooo....

Quote:The free market denied coverage. The market causes useful drugs for deadly deseases to cost a fortune. The free market causes people to go bankrupt simply to stay alive. The free market as conservatives would have it at work.

That you believe what we have is a free market is the foundation of your misperceptions of our economic reality.

Quote:That you believe what we have is a free market is the foundation of your misperceptions of our economic reality.

Adorably ignoring the points I made.

Quote:Adorably ignoring the points I made.

Points based on a faulty premise are of no value.

Quote:I think Free market as conservatives would have it work just as they want it to. If you can't afford the medicine, then that's the free market at work. You should have worked harder to afford the medicine when you were well. Or they should hope people are (if they choose to be) charitable and provide them with help.

In a true free market healthcare system there is no insurance. That means the cost of treatment are regulated by what the market will pay. You wouldn't have $500 prescriptions for 12 pills, why because it's not affordable. Secondly without insurance buffers litigation against medical facilities and doctors would be limited to what that doctor or facility could pay, there wouldn't be these million dollar settlements going to lawyers driving up the overhead, doctors guilty would go out of business and be broke.


Now does this mean there would also be a wealthy medical market, middle class market and poor market, yes. That's not any different then what we have now. Who's to say the poor would be neglected that's absurd there's a huge market of poor people that need medical treatment someone would see that and offer low cost solutions with low profit margins but make a killing on volume. That's at worse assuming the society that has never left the poor behind would suddenly shun the poor simply because the Feds got out of the way.


For generations churches and other non profits including doctors on their off days ran free clinics. Hospitals offered payment plans for treatment after the fact and some organizations ran as charities to pay for rare treatments.


I take offense when people suggest we need government to take care of each other, I hold us in a higher regard, this is the largest group of caring, giving and self sacrificing people the world has ever seen. We've built this country on it and we where doing it long before Washington decided they could gain power and wealth by exploiting it. This is a county of good people at its core and that's why people like my family give up so much to get here. There's no other place like this.

Quote:I think Free market as conservatives would have it work just as they want it to. If you can't afford the medicine, then that's the free market at work. You should have worked harder to afford the medicine when you were well. Or they should hope people are (if they choose to be) charitable and provide them with help.

It's too bad that there's never any market forces that push prices down. No siree bob.

Quote:I have zero sympathy for the Walmarts of the world cutting hours to avoid providing health care to their already low paid work force. Smaller businesses I do understand though. 

 

Businesses used to have a presence and a bond with not only it's employees but also the community they were in. Those days are long gone. It's all about those extra pennies regardless of who's backs get broken in the process. 

 

It wasn't the Walmarts* that were cutting hours. Many of the larger employers were given waivers, depending on how much they contributed to Obama's campaign. 
 Small businesses didn't get waivers. The ACA just created another layer of corruption.

 

*I'm not sure about Walmart specifically. McDonalds got a waiver, and there were many others.

Quote:Points based on a faulty premise are of no value.

Denied for pre existing conditions. Truth. Medications for treating of deadly deseas priced extremely high. Truth. People going bankrupt due to overall healthcare costs. Truth


Faulty premises? Im not even sure why you'd argue against them. Those are absute facts that the free market created.

Quote:In a true free market healthcare system there is no insurance. That means the cost of treatment are regulated by what the market will pay. You wouldn't have $500 prescriptions for 12 pills, why because it's not affordable. Secondly without insurance buffers litigation against medical facilities and doctors would be limited to what that doctor or facility could pay, there wouldn't be these million dollar settlements going to lawyers driving up the overhead, doctors guilty would go out of business and be broke.


Now does this mean there would also be a wealthy medical market, middle class market and poor market, yes. That's not any different then what we have now. Who's to say the poor would be neglected that's absurd there's a huge market of poor people that need medical treatment someone would see that and offer low cost solutions with low profit margins but make a killing on volume. That's at worse assuming the society that has never left the poor behind would suddenly shun the poor simply because the Feds got out of the way.


For generations churches and other non profits including doctors on their off days ran free clinics. Hospitals offered payment plans for treatment after the fact and some organizations ran as charities to pay for rare treatments.


I take offense when people suggest we need government to take care of each other, I hold us in a higher regard, this is the largest group of caring, giving and self sacrificing people the world has ever seen. We've built this country on it and we where doing it long before Washington decided they could gain power and wealth by exploiting it. This is a county of good people at its core and that's why people like my family give up so much to get here. There's no other place like this.

Yup all true stuff. I've argued in the past on here that the insurance system is the main problem with regards to healthcare costs along with pharmaceuticals being a close second.

Quote:It wasn't the Walmarts* that were cutting hours. Many of the larger employers were given waivers, depending on how much they contributed to Obama's campaign.
Small businesses didn't get waivers. The ACA just created another layer of corruption.

*I'm not sure about Walmart specifically. McDonalds got a waiver, and there were many others.

I'd wager those waivers were given because they threatened to cut hours. Is it 50 employees the ACA considers small? I'm an opponent of most things that impact small businesses and since I'm not an owner I dont claim to know what its like to be one. Anecdotally I do know I've worked for three different engineering/architecture firms of varying success and they all offered insurance. My newest one I'm moving into next week has been open for 10 years and has always covered 100% of insurance. Its hard to wrap my mind around a business not being able to do it. I'm sure there are plenty that can't for whatever reason though.

Quote:Yup all true stuff. I've argued in the past on here that the insurance system is the main problem with regards to healthcare costs along with pharmaceuticals being a close second.

You guys are great, but you have no clue about healthcare and what's wrong with it. Unfortunately you all know more about it than the idiots who wrote the ACA.

Quote:You guys are great, but you have no clue about healthcare and what's wrong with it. Unfortunately you all know more about it than the idiots who wrote the ACA.

You still have not explained how the example I gave to you are untrue. 

 

You can't because they are absolute facts, so go ahead and pick apart Eric's points I agreed with. 

Quote:You still have not explained how the example I gave to you are untrue.


You can't because they are absolute facts, so go ahead and pick apart Eric's points I agreed with.

The flaw in your premise: the health-care market was not a free market. Nothing you said was true of a free market.

Best way to make the free market look like the best choice: When it doesn't work, say it's not a free market.  


The fact is, there's no such thing as a free market.  So it's easy to say the free market works when proponents can just say it's a free market when it works, and it's not free market when it doesn't.  

Quote:The flaw in your premise: the health-care market was not a free market. Nothing you said was true of a free market.

 

So your only argument is since there is no truly free market anywhere that all problems with the "Mostly Free Markets" is the government. Oh bless your heart. 

Quote:Best way to make the free market look like the best choice: When it doesn't work, say it's not a free market.  


The fact is, there's no such thing as a free market.  So it's easy to say the free market works when proponents can just say it's a free market when it works, and it's not free market when it doesn't.  

What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?