Quote:Drills in order of importance for DEs: 3 cone > Broad Jump > Vertical Jump > 10 yard split > Bench press > 40 Yard dash
Fowler vs tradiitonal DE: 3 cone (20th percentile), Broad Jump (35%), Vertical Jump (40%), 10 yard split (92%), Bench Press (13%), 40 yard dash (94%)
Those numbers are misconstrued a bit because LEO isn't really a true DE, you have to kind of have to factor in some DE/LB hybrid to get the %s close enough. So Dante being undersized as a true DE helps him when he is viewed as a LEO. He lands on the big side of a LEO size list. On the flip side, however, those already pedestrian numbers at pure DE become even worse when you compare him to a hybrid type player. No matter how you slice it, Fowler comes up as a well below average athlete, especially in the drills that matter the most for his specific role.
Now, virtually all of the old school praise that Dave used to explain why they liked Fowler (tenacity, heavy hands, bad intentions, aggression, etc) have some kind of incalculable value I am sure, but they need to mean a lot more than we think cause below average production plus well below average athlete leaves a lot to overcome.
they plan to slim him down almost 10 pounds. I'm sure that will help his movement and hip flexibility.
Quote:I don't care if a player is 600 pounds with one eye and a unicorn tail.... If he can rush the passer and produce sacks.... lets get him!
Now that would be considered a freak talent.
Quote:I don't care if a player is 600 pounds with one eye and a unicorn tail.... If he can rush the passer and produce sacks.... lets get him!
I think he'd make a better offensive lineman. >_>
Quote:Now that would be considered a freak talent.
Kinda sounds like a chick I got set up with once.. Still waiting for my hand to grow back after gnawing it off..
Quote:I think his 10 yard split is close to elite. Combine that with his non-stop motor, he will make a lot of plays. I think he is at least athletic enough to be a star. Whether he will be will be determined in the future, but he's got enough. If we use him well around his strengths, I think he can be a 10+ sack/year guy.
You can see his 10 yard split + effort get him that sack against FSU this past year when he fell down, got up, and ran him down for a sack.
Those are plays that will happen a bunch of times in his career
I agree about his 10 yard split being his most impressive combine stat. He also has a more ideal weight than Beasley. Not that a lot of Beasley's other combine numbers weren't very impressive, because they were.
Wouldn't Fowler's 10 yard split, which he excelled at, be a more important number than his 40 time? If he or any other DE/LEO is running 40 yards on a play, something went wrong. Maybe I'm over simplifying it.
Quote:Don't forget about Shane Ray and the Broncos.
I was comparing the teams who currently use schemes and have coaches from the Pete Carroll coaching tree.
Quote:I agree about his 10 yard split being his most impressive combine stat. He also has a more ideal weight than Beasley. Not that a lot of Beasley's other combine numbers weren't very impressive, because they were.
Wouldn't Fowler's 10 yard split, which he excelled at, be a more important number than his 40 time? If he or any other DE/LEO is running 40 yards on a play, something went wrong. Maybe I'm over simplifying it.
Yes, it goes 3 cone > broad jump > vertical jump > 10 yard split > bench press > 40 yard dash. Fowler excelled at the 4th most important drill, and was far below average in the 3 most important.
Quote:they plan to slim him down almost 10 pounds. I'm sure that will help his movement and hip flexibility.
Some have said that (I haven't seen it yet but I guess I believe it was said), but Dave also said he liked that Fowler was 261 because the lighter LEOs in the "240-250 range" were too light and had to come off the field for early downs. One way or another the two comments don't jive with one another.
If you're scared of the Beasley type because he is only 250 then why would you draft the bigger one just to get him to drop to that size?
Quote:Yes, it goes 3 cone > broad jump > vertical jump > 10 yard split > bench press > 40 yard dash. Fowler excelled at the 4th most important drill, and was far below average in the 3 most important.
First of all I don't care what you keep repeating, there's no set in stone order of drills that a player must be good at to be a good football player.
As for your order it doesn't make sense. Both jumps are designed to show explosiveness correct? Well wouldn't a tremendous 10 yard split out of a somewhat football stance show explosiveness as well? 10 yards is essentially these guys first three or four steps off the ball. That in my opinion is more indicative of a good burst off the ball than a standing jump.
Not to say that the standing jumps are not important, they definitely are but for a position like DE I would disagree with them being third and fourth.
Not really a big measurables guy. But watching the cutups Fowler does lack in winning consistantly around the edge. Hes good at inside moves, but against NFL OTs you need to scare them to set that up. I dont see it. If hes moved around though he can be very productive. I just dont think an elite player should have to be moved around though to be productive.
Quote:Not really a big measurables guy. But watching the cutups Fowler does lack in winning consistantly around the edge. Hes good at inside moves, but against NFL OTs you need to scare them to set that up. I dont see it. If hes moved around though he can be very productive. I just dont think an elite player should have to be moved around though to be productive.
What? Doesn't jj watt play every position on th e dline?
This draft was exciting for the Jags. I can easily see Fowler subbing in/out with Clemens at DE and Telvin Smith at OLB. Bennet as the 3T and learning behind Marks and Odrick will be awesome. Yeldon could be something with the Wiz/Parnell/Cann additions to the oline. The Jags will finish over .500 this season. Trust me, I became a fan last year. I talked to the 3 others that became fans and they agree, this team is moving in the right direction.
Quote:Not really a big measurables guy. But watching the cutups Fowler does lack in winning consistantly around the edge. Hes good at inside moves, but against NFL OTs you need to scare them to set that up. I dont see it. If hes moved around though he can be very productive. I just dont think an elite player should have to be moved around though to be productive.
Teams spend countless hours game planing trying to exploit weekly mismatches. JJ Watt plays multiple positions throughout the game. Is he not elite? Antonio Brown is used on the outside, in the slot, and out of the backfield. Is he not any good? Same for Jimmy Graham. He's constantly moved around so they can find the best mismatch. Would you consider him an elite player? Warren Sapp was moved all over the line in similar fashion to Watt. Wouldn't you consider him elite?
Quote:Yes, it goes 3 cone > broad jump > vertical jump > 10 yard split > bench press > 40 yard dash. Fowler excelled at the 4th most important drill, and was far below average in the 3 most important.
You act like you are privy to these stats.
Every GM in the league and every talking head in the media knows about these stats and their supposed importance. What you don't seem to understand is that these professionals watched every minute of game film for the entire career of the player and value what they see with their own eyes over stats that you seem to thing are the end all be all.
Stats tell you nothing about a players football IQ, their heart, or their overall skill level. Without these things, a freak athlete will never make it in the NFL. With these things, even a player with average stats can become a hall of famer.
Quote:
Stats tell you nothing about a players football IQ, their heart, or their overall skill level. Without these things, a freak athlete will never make it in the NFL. With these things, even a player with average stats can become a hall of famer.
All of what you are saying here start mattering only once you have that baseline athletic profile that is required for the position. Fowler is very fringe for the position. He isn't Jarvis Jones or Michael Sam (or Shane Ray), but he is closer than you'd like.
It's possible that the level of his heart and desire (I hate using those terms because they are completely incalculable and incomparable, if not completely fabricated) carries him to be a dominant player, but I will always lean toward the guy who shows a good enough baseline level of intangibles with the excellent athletic profile (like Beasley or Dupree) over the vice versa like Fowler.