Quote:You lost me on this one. I get you current kick to back and never back off of is association but let's not for a second try to pretend the government was the only reason slavery existed. It mostly existed because of capitalism and the desire to make the most money possible at the expense who cares else. That's the definition of your unregulated free market at work.
So explain slavery in every other part of the world? That argument is to deny that slavery existed outside of capitalism which is so far beyond false it's not even defendable.
Quote:So explain slavery in every other part of the world? That argument is to deny that slavery existed outside of capitalism which is so far beyond false it's not even defendable.
Its not exclusive to capitalism no but it was exclusive to profit driven people. To deny it has nothing to do with making money is purely the doing of the government is false. If it wasn't outlawed it would still he practiced because its males a metric ton of money.
Its not lime we held the monopoly on capitalism. Other countries banned it before we did just like they granted equal rights and protections from discrimination to gays before we did. Why are we always behind the times in civil rights?
People in this country have no idea what real persecution is. I wish people would stop being so offended by every damn thing, and I mean EVERYONE. There are so many things going on that are so much worse than someone not getting a cake they want or being offended because their religious belief is not being observed. These issues are not you being persecuted, it's you not getting your way and your pride being hurt. It's one thing to disagree or have a different opinion and quite a different thing to stand on a soapbox and cry foul over every little thing.
Guess what? We live in a multicultural society of different ethnicities, religions, opinions, beliefs, values, etc. We're a melting pot of people and ideas. We're going to disagree and once upon a time that wasn't something to get your panties in such a giant wad about. We used to be able to have differing opinions and agree to disagree. Now everyone is so focused on being "right" (or on their perceived rights) they've forgotten what it is to be civilized. If it keeps going this way, having a different opinion will be against the law. Radical individualism is killing this country.
And if you want to see real persecution look to the Middle East and Africa.
Quote:People in this country have no idea what real persecution is. I wish people would stop being so offended by every damn thing, and I mean EVERYONE. There are so many things going on that are so much worse than someone not getting a cake they want or being offended because their religious belief is not being observed. These issues are not you being persecuted, it's you not getting your way and your pride being hurt. It's one thing to disagree or have a different opinion and quite a different thing to stand on a soapbox and cry foul over every little thing.
Guess what? We live in a multicultural society of different ethnicities, religions, opinions, beliefs, values, etc. We're a melting pot of people and ideas. We're going to disagree and once upon a time that wasn't something to get your panties in such a giant wad about. We used to be able to have differing opinions and agree to disagree. Now everyone is so focused on being "right" (or on their perceived rights) they've forgotten what it is to be civilized. If it keeps going this way, having a different opinion will be against the law. Radical individualism is killing this country.
And if you want to see real persecution look to the Middle East and Africa.
While not untrue, I do not think it's wise to forget that it was not so long ago that true persecution took place in this country and for a very longtime. Those that forget that and allow it to continue to happen in other forms, I'd argue, are those that allow us to fall back into those dark times in our history.
Man, I couldn't wade through all this stuff - but I do want to comment about the difference in "free association" and "public accommodations". They are not the same thing.
You can hang out with whomever you choose, but if you are going to run a business you better be prepared to serve the public. And you don't get to decide who "the public" is going to be. That argument was settled by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
I'm kind of glad the whole Indiana law situation came up. It's always good to have the separation of church and state issue reaffirmed.
Quote:Man, I couldn't wade through all this stuff - but I do want to comment about the difference in "free association" and "public accommodations". They are not the same thing.
You can hang out with whomever you choose, but if you are going to run a business you better be prepared to serve the public. And you don't get to decide who "the public" is going to be. That argument was settled by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
I'm kind of glad the whole Indiana law situation came up. It's always good to have the separation of church and state issue reaffirmed.
Wrong in 1964 the federal government established a set of predetermined protected classes that can not be excluded access because they are apart of said classes. It does nothing to prevent a private business from refusing service to individuals outside of those federally protected categories. The notion that operating a business requires serving all of the public first is a false narrative, plenty of business models are built on specifically excluding sectors of the public.
Now if you want to argue sexual orientation should be added to that group of protected categories that's fine but as of today the 1964 Civil Rights act has absolutely nothing to do with the law in Indiana.
Quote:It's not throwing stones to refuse to particpate. What will I do when they come for me? Will I be derided as "intolerant", "hayseed", "bigot" or any of the other nasty things people have called these pizza makers, florists, and photographers who earnestly are acting on their formerly Constitutionaly-protected religious convictions? What happens when I'm the target of one of these ambush journalism witch hunts? Because what we all know is that this movement is never satisfied to win, there's always the next battle. And once you have the cake, the photographer, and the florist then there's only two things left you need to have a wedding, and it will be their next fight to see that I acede to their demands.
The problems then lies in picking and choosing what sin to cater to. If that were the case everyone would go out of business.
I believe a shop owner has a right to do what they so choose. It is their business, and business decisions that will make or break them. I just don't think it makes sense to choose to refuse business to someone based on sexuality because it's a sin.
Quote:The problems then lies in picking and choosing what sin to cater to. If that were the case everyone would go out of business.
I believe a shop owner has a right to do what they so choose. It is their business, and business decisions that will make or break them. I just don't think it makes sense to choose to refuse business to someone based on sexuality because it's a sin.
And no one's saying you have to refuse service. They are trying to say you must provide it. Even this whole pizza thing is evidence of how far they'll go, no one was denied service, the owner committed thought crime by expressing an opinion and got death threats from those who demand toleration.
Quote:And no one's saying you have to refuse service. They are trying to say you must provide it. Even this whole pizza thing is evidence of how far they'll go, no one was denied service, the owner committed thought crime by expressing an opinion and got death threats from those who demand toleration.
That really is the insanity of the issue, no one was ever denied anything. A reporter asked a hypothetical question and they answered wrong.
Quote:And no one's saying you have to refuse service. They are trying to say you must provide it. Even this whole pizza thing is evidence of how far they'll go, no one was denied service, the owner committed thought crime by expressing an opinion and got death threats from those who demand toleration.
In this day and age, people are still shocked that if you make remarks in a negative away about race, sex, religion or sexual orientation among others, you are going to be vilified for it. That's the problem with being a racist or a bigot, it's not acceptable like it used to be for an overwhelming part of the country.
You can say and think whatever you want but when it's at the expense of others you should probably expect to get some back lash if it's in the public arena.
Quote:Wrong in 1964 the federal government established a set of predetermined protected classes that can not be excluded access because they are apart of said classes. It does nothing to prevent a private business from refusing service to individuals outside of those federally protected categories. The notion that operating a business requires serving all of the public first is a false narrative, plenty of business models are built on specifically excluding sectors of the public.
Now if you want to argue sexual orientation should be added to that group of protected categories that's fine but as of today the 1964 Civil Rights act has absolutely nothing to do with the law in Indiana.
That is exactly what people have been seeking for the longest time. Give you one guess which side does not want that.
I don't see how anyone, at this point still can think this law had nothing to do with specifically allowing businesses to turn away LGBT. Sure they tried to wrap in an overall freedom bill but when you look at the people right behind the Governor in the photo and see that there are multiple outspoken anti-gay rights advocates behind him as he is signing the law you can't help but think.
Quote:While not untrue, I do not think it's wise to forget that it was not so long ago that true persecution took place in this country and for a very longtime. Those that forget that and allow it to continue to happen in other forms, I'd argue, are those that allow us to fall back into those dark times in our history.
I agree. My issue is that there is hate and discontent over
everything now. And it gets blown up by the media to unmanageable proportions and there is no dialogue anymore. Only arguing, screaming, degrading and downright foul attitudes.
It's one thing to debate something and have differences of opinion or to not agree with something/someone and quite another to point fingers and act like spoiled brats who aren't getting their way. What happened to people acting like responsible and respectful adults??
There are ways to solve the problems but pride is getting in the way and no one is going to 'win'.
Quote:I agree. My issue is that there is hate and discontent over everything now. And it gets blown up by the media to unmanageable proportions and there is no dialogue anymore. Only arguing, screaming, degrading and downright foul attitudes.
It's one thing to debate something and have differences of opinion or to not agree with something/someone and quite another to point fingers and act like spoiled brats who aren't getting their way. What happened to people acting like responsible and respectful adults??
There are ways to solve the problems but pride is getting in the way and no one is going to 'win'.
Too easy...
I don't disagree at all. Well said :thumbsup: