Quote:I can only speak to here locally I'm not going to pretend to know how it is nation wide but about 4 years ago I remember in Flagler county they built sidewalks that literally totaled 1 million dollars per mile. But no one really cared because it was 80% paid for by federal development grants. Now if it was Flagler county paying for the sidewalks how much do you think per mile it would've cost?
depends on how corrupt the politicians that gave the "winning bid" out were I suppose.
Quote:I don't believe I've ever argued for private emt, police or fire fighters? I know some radical anarcho-capitalist that believe in it but I just find it a bridge to far. I am however against federal funding for those services but that's not the same as calling for private companies taking over.
So you do draw the line in some place with privatizing everything?
Would you support private companies owning roads the right to deny service to groups of people?
Quote:So you do draw the line in some place with privatizing everything?
Would you support private companies owning roads the right to deny service to groups of people?
hmm that's an interesting question, I'd say counties/states would make contracts with pretty strict protections against discrimination. I can't imagine a scenario where any company would have a reason or justification for not offering services to consumers based on some kind of minority status. I could see companies perhaps creating roads that have vehicle limitations such as no vehicles over 2 axles (basically nothing bigger then box trucks).
Quote:depends on how corrupt the politicians that gave the "winning bid" out were I suppose.
Politicians are always corrupt that's why I like to minimize their power so much.
If not for corruption and mans natural abuse of power I'd be a communist.
Quote:hmm that's an interesting question, I'd say counties/states would make contracts with pretty strict protections against discrimination. I can't imagine a scenario where any company would have a reason or justification for not offering services to consumers based on some kind of minority status. I could see companies perhaps creating roads that have vehicle limitations such as no vehicles over 2 axles (basically nothing bigger then box trucks).
You can't imagine any scenario at all? None? RFRA laws in the OP are the point of this thread.
Quote:lol you already pay every time you drive somewhere. Last time around the US spent 46 BILLION on infrastructure in one single stimulus bill, that's 46 BILLION added to what they're already spending on infrastructure. Let see if you just go by the population of 309.6 million in 2009 that's $143.63 per person or for the average family of (4) $576.46 per family in one bill.
Let's stick with 2009 for example, in addition to the stimulus bill our infrastructure budge for 2009 was 23 Billion, so now lets add another $74.24 per person or the average family of (4) $296.96.
So in short your "free roads" actually cost you for the year of 2009 ALONE $217.87 per person or $873.42 per average family.
... and on top of that you want to add an extra toll in order to drive on certain highways. Lol, that sounds like an awesome idea... if you are wealthy...
It's like libertarians don't think things through, or have delusions that they are also part of the oligopoly... unless I'm wrong about those on this message board, none of us yahoos are a part of the oligopoly...
Quote:That's corruption which is a whole different issue.
I think this is the problem... libertarians believe business and the free market is pure and incorruptible.
That's a major flaw in their logic.
Quote:You can't imagine any scenario at all? None? RFRA laws in the OP are the point of this thread.
No I don't see a situation where a company is going to spend millions to build a highway and then say ok tell us if your gay or straight before paying the toll.
Quote:... and on top of that you want to add an extra toll in order to drive on certain highways. Lol, that sounds like an awesome idea... if you are wealthy...
It's like libertarians don't think things through, or have delusions that they are also part of the oligopoly... unless I'm wrong about those on this message board, none of us yahoos are a part of the oligopoly...
No sir not on top of that in replacement of that. I was explaining how the roads you drive on now are not free because you where appalled at the idea of paying for access to a road.
Quote:I think this is the problem... libertarians believe business and the free market is pure and incorruptible.
That's a major flaw in their logic.
Not at all of course business is corruptible. Which is why having a monopoly on force through government is so dangerous.
The free market is what controls greed, the ability of the consumer to boycott, choose alternatives services, and create competition is the best antidote to corruption and greed. It's when those business's are shielded from the market by he state we all lose.
Quote:I think this is the problem... libertarians believe business and the free market is pure and incorruptible.
That's a major flaw in their logic.
Eric's position on this is not the Libertarian position. We do not have issue with the concept of publicly funded roads.
Quote:No I don't see a situation where a company is going to spend millions to build a highway and then say ok tell us if your gay or straight before paying the toll.
Not gay or straight... but added costs for older cars and trucks. Added costs for the number of passengers... Added costs if you are hauling a new couch to your house... Added cost to drive during peak traffic hours...
The list of added costs are so easy to see. Not to mention the fact that a private road has no incentive to do anything regarding voter input.
Quote:No sir not on top of that in replacement of that. I was explaining how the roads you drive on now are not free because you where appalled at the idea of paying for access to a road.
These are all thought experiments, which I appreciate. But just so I understand, in this hypothetical, are you advocating that all roads be private? And are saying that it would be less costly to citizens is that was the case?
Quote:These are all thought experiments, which I appreciate. But just so I understand, in this hypothetical, are you advocating that all roads be private? And are saying that it would be less costly to citizens is that was the case?
Of course it's hypothetical right now heck we can't even agree on privatizing small aspects of the economy much less such a large sector like transportation.
Quote:Eric's position on this is not the Libertarian position. We do not have issue with the concept of publicly funded roads.
Actually, you are correct. I shouldn't write like I fully understand libertarian ideologies. I only know what I've read in blogs and what Rand and Ron are sound bited. Apologies.
Quote:Of course it's hypothetical right now heck we can't even agree on privatizing small aspects of the economy much less such a large sector like transportation.
Haha! :-) a more factual statement has not been uttered!
But the vast majority of our economy is privatized... did you mean government?
Quote:Haha! :-) a more factual statement has not been uttered!
But the vast majority of our economy is privatized... did you mean government?
If you really look at it, it's a very small portion of the economy that is purely privatized. Education, Transportation, Housing, Healthcare, it's all either government ran or heavily intertwined with government backed loans, grants and regulations.
Quote:If you really look at it, it's a very small portion of the economy that is purely privatized. Education, Transportation, Housing, Healthcare, it's all either government ran or heavily intertwined with government backed loans, grants and regulations.
Where we disagree I think is in regards to social goods. Those sectors of the society you mentioned above can be seen as the core of the society, adding a profit motive to them would be unwise... in my opinion, of course.