Quote:I think in a vacuum of society that could work. However, we are well past that. Based on the civil injustices of the past you wont see a return to zero legislation on discrimination for or against. It's a waste of time to argue in favor of striking down all anti-discrimination laws, which is what you are doing. Isn't it more productive to look at what could be done in the current landscape?
I still advocate private property and free association. If we're just looking at this legislative piece all it does is provide individuals who operate private institutions and companies (non-public funding) the protection of refusal to participate in events they oppose for religious purposes. This type of legislation was originally used to protect minority religions like Hinduism and Islam. Just because a Christian might use doesn't change the purpose of the legislation nor it's validity.
Regardless of where we are, where we have been and where we will go I maintain that we can not attempt to rank natural rights. One persons rights can not infringe on another persons rights, that includes private property, free association and religious freedom as much as it does anything else.
Quote:I still advocate private property and free association. If we're just looking at this legislative piece all it does is provide individuals who operate private institutions and companies (non-public funding) the protection of refusal to participate in events they oppose for religious purposes. This type of legislation was originally used to protect minority religions like Hinduism and Islam. Just because a Christian might use doesn't change the purpose of the legislation nor it's validity.
Regardless of where we are, where we have been and where we will go I maintain that we can not attempt to rank natural rights. One persons rights can not infringe on another persons rights, that includes private property, free association and religious freedom as much as it does anything else.
That's trying to sugarcoat it. It allows legal discrimination in denial service of any kind.
Ranking natural rights? That's not it at all. All rights should be respected until they infringe on others. If a person who is gay wants to buy a pizza but the religion you chose to join vilifies them so you deny them service then you are discriminating. I think there could be a discussion had off this site about what rights are actually natural.
Quote:That's trying to sugarcoat it. It allows legal discrimination in denial service of any kind.
Ranking natural rights? That's not it at all. All rights should be respected until they infringe on others. If a person who is gay wants to buy a pizza but the religion you chose to join vilifies them so you deny them service then you are discriminating. I think there could be a discussion had off this site about what rights are actually natural.
Discrimination is going to happen in a free market, there's no denying it. To what level is the debate, but in your example yes if a privately owned pizzeria where religious and found homosexuality unacceptable they should have the right to refuse service. I'd argue they have that right regardless of religion, if they just simply don't like the color of their pants, it's their choice.
Quote:Discrimination is going to happen in a free market, there's no denying it. To what level is the debate, but in your example yes if a privately owned pizzeria where religious and found homosexuality unacceptable they should have the right to refuse service. I'd argue they have that right regardless of religion, if they just simply don't like the color of their pants, it's their choice.
And that is the fundamental difference in our world views. I think making discrimination illegal is not only the right thing to do but should be the goal of an advanced and enlightened society. Putting everyone on equal footing is in mind, the basis for an ideal society. If every is on equal footing at it's basic level then hard work and perseverance can truly amount to something.
As a bonus, everyone would be happier if they stopped hating people for silly reasons.
Quote:And that is the fundamental difference in our world views. I think making discrimination illegal is not only the right thing to do but should be the goal of an advanced and enlightened society. Putting everyone on equal footing is in mind, the basis for an ideal society. If every is on equal footing at it's basic level then hard work and perseverance can truly amount to something.
As a bonus, everyone would be happier if they stopped hating people for silly reasons.
The crux of the matter again, why do you get to decide for me what reasons are "silly?" Why do you get to be the decider of my rights?
Quote:The crux of the matter again, why do you get to decide for me what reasons are "silly?" Why do you get to be the decider of my rights?
I am not the decider. Society is. Your right is a thing that causes pain in the form of discrimination to others. That should not be a right nor something people are willing to defend in a modern society. It's a very backwards view, IMO, to say it's my right to discriminate as I see fit because I do not recognize this particular class as deserving of protection in that area.
The truth is people who think that way are on the wrong side of history. One by one groups that are discriminated against are protected.
Maybe this has been address because I saw a couple people ask: are the roads owned by private companies or governments with leases to the private companies?
Assuming its private, what happens when they don't make enough off the road that leads to your house, and they close it off or sell it to a company that has a different goal with the land than to maintain it?
Quote:I am not the decider. Society is. Your right is a thing that causes pain in the form of discrimination to others. That should not be a right nor something people are willing to defend in a modern society. It's a very backwards view, IMO, to say it's my right to discriminate as I see fit because I do not recognize this particular class as deserving of protection in that area.
The truth is people who think that way are on the wrong side of history. One by one groups that are discriminated against are protected.
What was it Mel Gibson said in The Patriot? Oh yeah, "Better one tyrant 3,000 miles away than 3,000 tyrants 1 mile away." Some script writer was prescient there. The notion that my rights end if they cause "pain" to others is absurd. Forcing me to have a business relationship that I find abhorrent causes me "pain", but it's ok with you when it's the gay guy exercising his so called "rights" but not ok when it's me exercising my actual rights simply because you disagree with my position. That is the subjectivity that must be eliminated lest we endanger ALL our rights. The right to private property is the most essential right of all because, as you are demonstrating in this thread, when it does not exist or exists in a weakened state then all of the other natural rights (speech, association, self determination, earning a living, etc.) are also endangered. A man has the right to do with his property as he chooses or he has a right to nothing.
Quote:Actually, you are correct. I shouldn't write like I fully understand libertarian ideologies. I only know what I've read in blogs and what Rand and Ron are sound bited. Apologies.
Thought this was apropos:
![[Image: libertarians.jpg]](https://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/libertarians.jpg)
Quote:Thought this was apropos:
That's hilarious. And exactly true.
Quote:Maybe this has been address because I saw a couple people ask: are the roads owned by private companies or governments with leases to the private companies?
Assuming its private, what happens when they don't make enough off the road that leads to your house, and they close it off or sell it to a company that has a different goal with the land than to maintain it?
That would all be detailed in any contracts signed to build the road in the first place. It' the same as when waste companies are contracted by the city to collect the trash. There's details on what happens if the waste company goes out of business, fails to do their end of the contract ect...
Quote:you don't actually think its just something for someone to complain about do you? Its basicly the same idea as the civil rights movement between whites and blacks.
Being white or black is not a matter of religion whatsoever.
Quote:It is crazy to you because you are likely an able bodied, heterosexual white male.
And what does that have to do with religious choice?
Quote:And what does that have to do with religious choice?
Failure to check privledge detected.
Quote:Being white or black is not a matter of religion whatsoever.
Well at one point it was, for example the Mormon church preached "blacks" where dark skinned because they where stained by Satan, the literally couldn't enter a Mormon temple until they had been baptized by a Mormon church and turned "white" on the inside. They didn't even let black people into their temples into the 70's.
It's a crazy ridiculous absurd stupid belief they don't practice or even really acknowledge anymore but it was their mainstream doctrine for a while. It's why I maintain no matter the reason or absurdity, private individuals, organizations and businesses have to be given the ability to associate with whom they choose or we're taking equal access and putting it above everything else.
Quote:It's a crazy ridiculous absurd stupid belief they don't practice or even really acknowledge anymore but it was their mainstream doctrine for a while. It's why I maintain no matter the reason or absurdity, private individuals, organizations and businesses have to be given the ability to associate with whom they choose or we're taking equal access and putting it above everything else.
I agree. While I personally have no tolerance for bigotry, I have the choice not to associate with bigots and freely exercise that choice. It really is that simple.
Quote:And what does that have to do with religious choice?
It is hard for you to look at the situation and find a problem with it when (histortically) you fit in all these groups that have never been discriminated against.
Quote:I agree. While I personally have no tolerance for bigotry, I have the choice not to associate with bigots and freely exercise that choice. It really is that simple.
This is my opinion as well.
The government or anyone else for that matter shouldn't tell me who I can allow to use my business.
If you oppose someone's business because of who they refuse service to, don't use their business.
It's your choice.
Quote:It is hard for you to look at the situation and find a problem with it when (histortically) you fit in all these groups that have never been discriminated against.
Now wait a minute, that's not true at all. Even "white" Irish people where discriminated up until JFK.
There is no group that has never "historically" been discriminated against.