Quote:3 years I ago I was doing my best supporting a family of 6 on $10.18 an hour, I can tell you without outside help it is literally impossible.
And what about supporting a family of 6 on $7.25/hour. Is that somehow
easier? An extra $5000/year goes a long ways, especially for the people who are the worst off. Even an extra $4000/year goes a long way.
You can't raise a family of 6 of $10.18/hour, nobody is saying that you can. But you can't even raise a family of 2 on $7.25/hour.
It hasn't been keeping up with inflation since 1978. The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.60 which would be comparable to $10.90/hour today.
Quote:And what about supporting a family of 6 on $7.25/hour. Is that somehow easier? An extra $5000/year goes a long ways, especially for the people who are the worst off. Even an extra $4000/year goes a long way.
You can't raise a family of 6 of $10.18/hour, nobody is saying that you can. But you can't even raise a family of 2 on $7.25/hour.
It hasn't been keeping up with inflation since 1978. The minimum wage in 1968 was $1.60 which would be comparable to $10.90/hour today.
The argument is:
You can't raise a family or even expect people to live on a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour
the proposed solution is
Raise the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour
My counter is:
You still can't raise a family or support yourself on $10.10 an hour so what's the point?
Quote:3 years I ago I was doing my best supporting a family of 6 on $10.18 an hour, I can tell you without outside help it is literally impossible.
Eric, refresh my memory, but 3 years ago your boss was trying to keep you dumb and broke?
With a couple extra bucks an hour, at least you were an extra hundred bucks a week from being broke. You were never dumb.
I mean, there are all sorts of philosophical reasons for not having a minimum wage, but they're kinda wrong. It does - at least - get us away from something called indentured servitude. Believe me, there are still those on earth that don't mind that idea either.
Quote:Working in various jobs every time minimum wage was increased never once did I (who was making more then minimum wage in each job) get an increase. So that's not how it's worked in the past. I remember when the minimum wage went from $5.15 to $7.27 or something like that I was making almost $8 an hour, my pay didn't go up not one penny. All of the sudden the ground I had gained over 3 years on that job was for nothing, I was barely making $1 over minimum wage.
You are missing the point Eric. If wages had gone up in alignment with worker productivity, profits, and cost of living than this would not be an issue. The low wages earners would have kept getting more because wage increases would keep occurring and there would be a need for a huge jump in minimum wage. The reason you guys are freaking out about this is because it's several dollars per hour. It is only this way because employers have not naturally raised wages and the minimum has been raised in proportion or at all with the factors I previously mentioned.
I know you understand this but it does not fit with your pay as low as possible libertarian beliefs.
Quote:The argument is:
You can't raise a family or even expect people to live on a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour
the proposed solution is
Raise the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour
My counter is:
You still can't raise a family or support yourself on $10.10 an hour so what's the point?
Another problem is you are using the same faulty argument and examples as the rest of the right wing brass.
a) if you want to raise the minimum wage to X why not raise it to eleventy billion dollars?!?! (or in examples of this thread 30/hour or 200/hour
b) 10.10 you want isn't enough so why bother doing it at all?
See the problem with these two statement? One they set the goalposts so far off to attempt to make the whole argument seem to be silly. The second frames the statement in a way to make the whole argument seem pointless.
Quote:Eric, refresh my memory, but 3 years ago your boss was trying to keep you dumb and broke?
With a couple extra bucks an hour, at least you were an extra hundred bucks a week from being broke. You were never dumb.
I mean, there are all sorts of philosophical reasons for not having a minimum wage, but they're kinda wrong. It does - at least - get us away from something called indentured servitude. Believe me, there are still those on earth that don't mind that idea either.
I'd left my job in automotive to start taking full time college classes after 10 years of working and hitting dead ends. 3 years ago I moved my family of 6 into a 2 bedroom duplex, shut off the cable, sold everything we owned except the beds the washing machine and some clothes. We hung dry clothing to keep the electric bill down, I rode a bicycle to work 4 miles each way and to get to class I bought a motorcycle to limit gas. took a job from 2am-10am unloading semi trucks for $10 an hour so I could double up on classes from 12pm-8pm.
I finished my AA in 3 semesters and went back to work in automotive where I'm making twice what I made before I left. I'm about 10 credits from finishing my BA where I then plan on jumping to a dealership for more money.
My point was that I know what it's like to make ends meet on $10 an hour and without help (for us it was the form of student loans and savings) it's not possible. If people really expect a minimum wage that can be a living wage you'd have to pay somewhere around $15 an hour but everyone admits that's to much, why because the jobs paying $7 an hour won't exist if we make them pay $15 an hour.
Quote:Another problem is you are using the same faulty argument and examples as the rest of the right wing brass.
a) if you want to raise the minimum wage to X why not raise it to eleventy billion dollars?!?! (or in examples of this thread 30/hour or 200/hour
b) 10.10 you want isn't enough so why bother doing it at all?
See the problem with these two statement? One they set the goalposts so far off to attempt to make the whole argument seem to be silly. The second frames the statement in a way to make the whole argument seem pointless.
The purpose of the $200 argument is to illustrate there is a balance to wages. That balance is the backbone of capitalism, supply and demand. When you try and adjust that balance even the slightest the adjustment is to eliminate or consolidate jobs.
To me those minimum wage jobs are a stepping stone if you eliminate them it makes it harder for anyone to get started. Or you drive that type of work underground.
Quote:I'd left my job in automotive to start taking full time college classes after 10 years of working and hitting dead ends. 3 years ago I moved my family of 6 into a 2 bedroom duplex, shut off the cable, sold everything we owned except the beds the washing machine and some clothes. We hung dry clothing to keep the electric bill down, I rode a bicycle to work 4 miles each way and to get to class I bought a motorcycle to limit gas. took a job from 2am-10am unloading semi trucks for $10 an hour so I could double up on classes from 12pm-8pm.
I finished my AA in 3 semesters and went back to work in automotive where I'm making twice what I made before I left. I'm about 10 credits from finishing my BA where I then plan on jumping to a dealership for more money.
My point was that I know what it's like to make ends meet on $10 an hour and without help (for us it was the form of student loans and savings) it's not possible. If people really expect a minimum wage that can be a living wage you'd have to pay somewhere around $15 an hour but everyone admits that's to much, why because the jobs paying $7 an hour won't exist if we make them pay $15 an hour.
Quote:The purpose of the $200 argument is to illustrate there is a balance to wages. That balance is the backbone of capitalism, supply and demand. When you try and adjust that balance even the slightest the adjustment is to eliminate or consolidate jobs.
To me those minimum wage jobs are a stepping stone if you eliminate them it makes it harder for anyone to get started. Or you drive that type of work underground.
I don't know that a married couple with 6 kids is really the average nor the norm of the average minimum wage worker. I am sure with say 1 kid or two kids or single, 12-15 would be plenty to survive on. That's what we are talking about paying bills and feeding yourself with a bit of room with scrimping to go to school and get ahead should you so desire.
No that is not the purpose. The purpose is to make it sound ridiculous because it does when you throw dumb numbers like 200/hour to counter why 12 is unreasonable.. Again your argument is living wages are unreasonable. That's what you are saying that walmart will somehow get rid of jobs all of a sudden if they had to pay "unreasonable wages" that are subsidized through the welfare programs you hate so much. You know they would not.
If the backbone of capitalism is to have the ability to not pay enough for people to survive than the system is broken. True Free markets are broken and flawed in that they tend in the end to monopolies and when monopolies happen guess what? Wages sink even lower among other problems. This is the point of regulations on the free market. To defend it in it's purest form is foolish because it's purest form does not work in a society.
Quote:I don't know that a married couple with 6 kids is really the average nor the norm of the average minimum wage worker. I am sure with say 1 kid or two kids or single, 12-15 would be plenty to survive on. That's what we are talking about paying bills and feeding yourself with a bit of room with scrimping to go to school and get ahead should you so desire.
No that is not the purpose. The purpose is to make it sound ridiculous because it does when you throw dumb numbers like 200/hour to counter why 12 is unreasonable.. Again your argument is living wages are unreasonable. That's what you are saying that walmart will somehow get rid of jobs all of a sudden if they had to pay "unreasonable wages" that are subsidized through the welfare programs you hate so much. You know they would not.
If the backbone of capitalism is to have the ability to not pay enough for people to survive than the system is broken. True Free markets are broken and flawed in that they tend in the end to monopolies and when monopolies happen guess what? Wages sink even lower among other problems. This is the point of regulations on the free market. To defend it in it's purest form is foolish because it's purest form does not work in a society.
You trying to give MORE kids!?!? I have 4 good sir! lol
Walmart is paying more than minimum wage already? Again these jobs that are paying minimum wage are entry level, they exist simply because it is beneficial to employ someone to do the remedial task for minimum wage. We're talking fast food, cashiers, retail, these jobs are not designed nor intended to be a source of homestead income. I agree big corporations lead to lower wages, which is why they don't care about minimum wage increases they easily absorb the cost. However the small business competition simply can't they'll either do it themselves, eliminate the task or close the business either way it leads to more big corporations.
The Free market is broken but that's government keeps interfering, think of government as the rock blocking the flow of capitalism down stream. Remove the rock and river will start flowing again.
You know what happens when you increase the cost of something? You get less demand for it. Its better to work for $5 an hour than not work for $0 per hour.
Quote:I'd left my job in automotive to start taking full time college classes after 10 years of working and hitting dead ends. 3 years ago I moved my family of 6 into a 2 bedroom duplex, shut off the cable, sold everything we owned except the beds the washing machine and some clothes. We hung dry clothing to keep the electric bill down, I rode a bicycle to work 4 miles each way and to get to class I bought a motorcycle to limit gas. took a job from 2am-10am unloading semi trucks for $10 an hour so I could double up on classes from 12pm-8pm.
I finished my AA in 3 semesters and went back to work in automotive where I'm making twice what I made before I left. I'm about 10 credits from finishing my BA where I then plan on jumping to a dealership for more money.
My point was that I know what it's like to make ends meet on $10 an hour and without help (for us it was the form of student loans and savings) it's not possible. If people really expect a minimum wage that can be a living wage you'd have to pay somewhere around $15 an hour but everyone admits that's to much, why because the jobs paying $7 an hour won't exist if we make them pay $15 an hour.
And my point was this:
There has to be a floor to wages, mandated by the government, because some employers are not interested in fairness. They are interested in their bottom line. Therefore, if they can keep you poor, and more important, uneducated, they can have you as a cheap employee for life. If they keep you poor enough, you'll never get educated.
I'm glad you did get that education, and a higher market value, but while you think that the minimum wage is made for entry-level only, it can also set the market value for what is essentially slave labor At $10/hour you can't feed a family - unless both members work, and now you're making 20 bucks an hour. You can now feed your family, and there's just enough left over to save for that education.
If anything, your story is evidence that how just a little extra can make a huge difference.
The reason I'm in favor of a small bump in the minimum wage is because of my own experience. In my own lifetime, my most successful year was in 1993 when I made about 35% of what I do now. Why? Because everything cost 30% of what it does now. In 30 years, I've actually gone slightly backwards. So it is today, when folks make twice as much as when I was paid minimum wage, yet things cost three times as much. It just hasn't kept pace with inflation.
It's time to bump it a bit, not necessarily make it a "living" wage. As you have mentioned, that's never been the point of setting the minimum wage anyway.
Inflation is the problem you guys are trying to address by raising the minimum wage. Problem is inflation has to rise and it's going to start rising much faster in the very near future, if you try and tie a wage floor to that rate we're going to have a very big problem with inflation becoming a multiplier.
How else does anyone think we intend to just service the interest on 17 trillion? Inflation is the plan rising bottom level wages is only going to double down the inflation faster. I don't like it but it's the reality of where we are and where we're headed.
I'm not advocating eliminating the minimum wage in today's environment we have to many mega corporations for that, I'm simply saying we go messing with it to much and it's going to make maters worse. It's a very delicate balance we're dealing with over the next 20 years, the dollars not as strong as where lead to believe.
Quote:You trying to give MORE kids!?!? I have 4 good sir! lol
Walmart is paying more than minimum wage already? Again these jobs that are paying minimum wage are entry level, they exist simply because it is beneficial to employ someone to do the remedial task for minimum wage. We're talking fast food, cashiers, retail, these jobs are not designed nor intended to be a source of homestead income. I agree big corporations lead to lower wages, which is why they don't care about minimum wage increases they easily absorb the cost. However the small business competition simply can't they'll either do it themselves, eliminate the task or close the business either way it leads to more big corporations.
The Free market is broken but that's government keeps interfering, think of government as the rock blocking the flow of capitalism down stream. Remove the rock and river will start flowing again.
My bad I swear I read you had six kids. Youd really need that pie huh?
You didn't address the issue of a true free market trending towards monopolies. The main reason we have regulations.
I understand the concept of entry level jobs. The issue, as I have brought up before is that there are more people looking for non entry level jibs than available. As flsprtsgod pointed out it's better to work for $5 than zero. I know he intended it to support his view but I believe it supports mine here. Even if you are able to fullfil a job that pays much more if all that's that's available is minimum wage you HAVE to take it. You gotta have some money even if it's not enough to live. Look at the average age of minimum wage workers. The right will say its a lack of bootstrapping desire the rest say its a verifiable lack if well pay jobs.
Quote:Inflation is the problem you guys are trying to address by raising the minimum wage. Problem is inflation has to rise and it's going to start rising much faster in the very near future, if you try and tie a wage floor to that rate we're going to have a very big problem with inflation becoming a multiplier.
How else does anyone think we intend to just service the interest on 17 trillion? Inflation is the plan rising bottom level wages is only going to double down the inflation faster. I don't like it but it's the reality of where we are and where we're headed.
I'm not advocating eliminating the minimum wage in today's environment we have to many mega corporations for that, I'm simply saying we go messing with it to much and it's going to make maters worse. It's a very delicate balance we're dealing with over the next 20 years, the dollars not as strong as where lead to believe.
That's the problem. You admit there is a problem but your solution is to let the poorest suffer. The rich get richer an poor get poorer. You can't stop the rich from accumulating more wealth and really they shouldn't be stopped. What we can do is help those stuck at the bottom.
I'm lucky to have lower middle class parents probably not unlike yourself that sacrificed for 20 years so I could have a chance to better myself. My life is better for their sacrifice. I watched them struggle. I argue that giving a third or more of yourself and your life so your progeny can have a better life than yourself should not only be not be necessary but should be frowned upon by society not lauded.
Quote:That's the problem. You admit there is a problem but your solution is to let the poorest suffer. The rich get richer an poor get poorer. You can't stop the rich from accumulating more wealth and really they shouldn't be stopped. What we can do is help those stuck at the bottom.
I'm lucky to have lower middle class parents probably not unlike yourself that sacrificed for 20 years so I could have a chance to better myself. My life is better for their sacrifice. I watched them struggle. I argue that giving a third or more of yourself and your life so your progeny can have a better life than yourself should not only be not be necessary but should be frowned upon by society not lauded.
I don't want to leave the poor to suffer at all, but there will always be the haves and have nots. I simply believe the have nots stand a better chance at slowly climbing out of poverty through hard work, sacrifice and a little help (be it charity, welfare, or just good luck). I do however think that trying to equalize wealth no matter how noble always leads to an imbalance and that is the problem.
If we want a minimum wage fine but to say we have to make that minimum wage something that can support a homestead or even an individual fully isn't asking for a minimum wage that's a living wage. I don't think a minimum wage is a good idea but understand the need for it today with the mega corporations, I KNOW a minimum living wage is a bad idea and impossible to sustain.
Quote:That's the problem. You admit there is a problem but your solution is to let the poorest suffer. The rich get richer an poor get poorer. You can't stop the rich from accumulating more wealth and really they shouldn't be stopped. What we can do is help those stuck at the bottom.
I'm lucky to have lower middle class parents probably not unlike yourself that sacrificed for 20 years so I could have a chance to better myself. My life is better for their sacrifice. I watched them struggle. I argue that giving a third or more of yourself and your life so your progeny can have a better life than yourself should not only be not be necessary but should be frowned upon by society not lauded.
When you raise the minimum wage you cost people their jobs. You've decided that it's ok for a certain group to not have jobs at the cost of others in the same class making a little (or a lot) more money. Artificially increasing the price of labor reduces demand for labor, this is simple economics and its always true. Just ask those folks in Seattle who lost their jobs last year. The politicians don't care and the people who voted for it cut their own throats because they think they can change the basic laws of economics and human nature.
Quote:When you raise the minimum wage you cost people their jobs. You've decided that it's ok for a certain group to not have jobs at the cost of others in the same class making a little (or a lot) more money. Artificially increasing the price of labor reduces demand for labor, this is simple economics and its always true. Just ask those folks in Seattle who lost their jobs last year. The politicians don't care and the people who voted for it cut their own throats because they think they can change the basic laws of economics and human nature.
So in essence free market capitalism is broken and is not sustainable in a society?
Quote:So in essence free market capitalism is broken and is not sustainable in a society?
Minimum wage and massive corporations would not exist in a free market capitalist society.
Quote:I don't want to leave the poor to suffer at all, but there will always be the haves and have nots. I simply believe the have nots stand a better chance at slowly climbing out of poverty through hard work, sacrifice and a little help (be it charity, welfare, or just good luck). I do however think that trying to equalize wealth no matter how noble always leads to an imbalance and that is the problem.
If we want a minimum wage fine but to say we have to make that minimum wage something that can support a homestead or even an individual fully isn't asking for a minimum wage that's a living wage. I don't think a minimum wage is a good idea but understand the need for it today with the mega corporations, I KNOW a minimum living wage is a bad idea and impossible to sustain.
Yes, I think the point of the minimum wage to begin with was to force employers to provide wages that at a minimum allow people to live. The thing you keep dodging is the most abhorrent thing about the system that is broken in many ways. Worker productivity has increased and profits have skyrocketed. Wages have not gone up in even remotely proportion to this. What this says is that employers will not do this without being forced. If you cannot sustain a business on living wages than frankly, you should not be in business in the first place. It's similar to the right's view on children, if you cannot afford them you should not have them.
Quote:Minimum wage and massive corporations would not exist in a free market capitalist society.
Minimum wage would not and indentured servitude would as would those work camps where you only get paid in company store bucks. Massive corps absolutely would, combine the monopolistic enterprises of yesteryear that had to be regulated with modern technology like the internet and fast shipping and it's a recipe for a handful of mega corps. Think Demolition man and Taco Bell