I stopped posting to the Politics sub-forum for quite some time. However, I think it's time for me to begin sifting through the tumultuous back and forth of this forum
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. But you guys know me. I've talked to most of the posters that visit this forum. I think it's important for you guys to realize why some "libtards" behave the way they do. So here's my story.
I was born in the USA. I was born at the Presbyterian Hospital on Central Avenue in the city of Albuquerque, NM. The reason I was born in Albuquerque was because my dad was on a school visa to earn his Ph.D. in Economics at the University of New Mexico. This was around the late 70s. My dad was born in Tehran, Iran. At the time he was granted his educational Visa, the US had a good relationship with Iran. After I was born, my Dad earned his PhD and wanted to go back home to teach and help Iran prosper.
He began his professorship at the University of Tehran in 1978. I was still just an infant. But even in 1978, [BLEEP] was getting crazy. Students were pretty pissed off at the Western ideology and wished for nothing to do with having ties to the West, especially the USA. My dad, a brand new PhD from the USA, was targeted by these ideologues. These ideologues believed that anyone from the West was the enemy and would destroy Iran. They hated my dad, not because of what he was, but because of where he came from. Even though my dad only wanted to help educate them.
He began to get death threats. 1978 Iran, from what he has told me, was a powder-keg. A populist powder-keg. People in Iran were pissed off. Mostly because they felt they were being over-run by outsiders. They felt that they were losing their identity. They hated the fact that the West was coming in and taking the country in a direction they felt was foreign. Protests were rampant. And the protesters wanted to ensure Iran would remain for Iranians. The protesters also were able to co-opt the highly religious within the country. The protesters made a strong push that Western ideology was against the teachings of God. They changed the minds of the religous to view anyone that was pro Western capitalism and neo-liberalism as being anti-religious.
Those that were for Western ideals were apathetic, they didn't care. Alot of them had some sympathies to keeping Iran more Iranian and less western. Populism is something that the middle class Iranians also felt. They weren't very religious, but the economic changes that were happening in Iran set up a sense of uncertainty for middle class Iranians. So as more and more demonstrations occurred that railed against western ideologies, the Iranians that felt capitalism and libertarian economic policies were best, stayed silent. After all, it's not very popular to say that a nationalistic point of view is dangerous.
As the tide began to turn towards religious fundamentalism, my dad decided to take me, my baby brother, and my mom and get the hell out of there. He realized earlier than most that an authoritarian movement had begun that would be hard to turn back.
He left his professorship in Iran to come back to the USA. Back to Albuquerque, where he earned his PhD. He left before me, my mom, and my brother got out. He had to leave us about 6 months before we left in order to tie down my mom and my brother's VISAs. I was already a citizen of the USA because I was born in Albuquerque, but my brother and mom weren't citizens and didn't have VISAs. So as the poop hit the fan, my mom left Tehran to go to Amsterdam as my dad was in Albuquerque fighting to get our my Mom and brother's VISAs granted. It was a crazy time for my refugee family. It was one that I wish never happened, but here we all are.
So I'm a US born citizen. And I've been to Iran. And I have family in Iran. My family in Iran is similar to most Christian families. They celebrate the main holidays, but they are not insane with religion anymore. But they are now stuck in a country that started out by wanting to make Iran "great" again. That's how all these movements start. The revolutionaries in Iran, the Ayatollah Khomeni, said he wanted to make Iran great again. He wanted to ensure that Iranians were well paid, well employed, and safe. He suckered the entire country, and messed that country up big time. He shut out people from coming into Iran. To this day, I cannot go into Iran anymore without fear of imprisonment. I can only see my cousins that live in the USA or Canada.
My dad hates Iran now. He sacrificed his time and energy to earn a PhD in order to go back to Iran and help modernize that country. And the morons in that country pooped all over modernized progress.
And now he we are. The country that is supposed to be the beacon to progress. The beacon to modern life. The beacon to freedom.
Here we are. That shining city on the hill. Behaving just like the Ayatollah Khomeni and his populist nationalists behaved back in 1978-1979. As a US citizen that has visited Iran, someone that knows how messed up that government is. To see our government behave just like them, with one Executive Order... It saddens me. It makes me cry.
I feel sorry for those that think Trump is doing the right thing. I feel sorry for them like I do for the kids that threatened my dad in Iran. My dad was telling them to study, to learn and to be patient. But instead, they hated my dad.
History.
History repeats itself. Sometimes not just over time. But over continents as well.
The_Anchorman
I have traveled the globe many times over and have witnessed first hand the pros and cons of each country. Many times I was approached by those that wished to leave and prosper in the US. This is the very foundation of our country. The immigration of those that wish to assimilate and become an active part in our culture should be welcome. Unfortunately, immigration lately is largely geared towards a handout. I feel for your family and those like you in a similar situation. With that said, I agree with what this administration is looking to achieve and unfortunately there will be some growing pains and inconveniences that impact more than others. This is for the greater good of America. Sometimes emotion allow us to not see the big picture or to even grasp the reality of the situation. This is a temporary 120 period to get immigration under control. Now I can say I do not agree with the suddenness that this occured as it has caused some unnecessary turmoil. Good luck. Thanks for sharing.
Ideally, good people like you and your family will be identified through the vetting process and allowed to come to America. What we don't want is the people that just want to come here and live off government benefits and steal from hard working, tax paying Americans. These same people believe there should be Sharia law. If it were up to them, women would be wearing bed sheets and people would be getting stoned to death or thrown off buildings.
It's not a permanent ban on all muslims. It's a temporary halt on immigration from certain nations until we can figure out how to vet everybody that is coming in. You have to turn the water off before you fix the plumbing.
Quote:I stopped posting to the Politics sub-forum for quite some time.
Was that because you lost your avatar bet?
As far as the rest of your screed, you really can't be that clueless to compare the fundamentalist overthrow of the Iranian government to a temporary* block of immigration from known terrorist countries by a duly elected government, can you?
*
until the vetting is fixed
Quote:
He began to get death threats. 1978 Iran, from what he has told me, was a powder-keg. A populist powder-keg. People in Iran were [BAD WORD REMOVED] off. Mostly because they felt they were being over-run by outsiders. They felt that they were losing their identity. They hated the fact that the West was coming in and taking the country in a direction they felt was foreign. Protests were rampant. And the protesters wanted to ensure Iran would remain for Iranians. The protesters also were able to co-opt the highly religious within the country. The protesters made a strong push that Western ideology was against the teachings of God. They changed the minds of the religous to view anyone that was pro Western capitalism and neo-liberalism as being anti-religious.
I empathize with your story but I have a few reservations. American culture as we knew it for most of the 20th Century is something worth preserving. In terms of culture, we are committing demographic suicide. Assimilating in new immigrants is a little bit like cooking. When it says to mix an ingredient gradually and stir, you gotta do that and not just dump it all in and toss it in the oven--a big chunk of unassimilated Jello powder isn't good for anyone. In the past, we had immigration but it would happen then stop for a while and the people would eventually start reaching an equilibrium.
Let's be candid here, this doesn't apply to all Muslims by any means, but Islam has bloody borders and it always has. Wherever you see Islam interacting with another group of people, you get trouble like Sudan, the Balkans, India, Israel, and now Europe. With a nice slow immigration of people like your parents, it works out pretty well generally, they blend in, they add a lot to the USA and we are happy to have them, but when you have a massive influx of people, you don't get that mixing, you get no-go zones, and insulated communities where outsiders are not welcome.
Right now it is pretty obvious that we cannot properly screen all of these people as non-ISIS types. We need to pause our immigration for a bit until we can do this properly and do it for the benefit of our country. It makes no sense that a country should admit foreigners against its own interests and this crying over us pausing immigration from dangerous places is a rather entitled mindset. The USA should act on the behalf and interests of Americans, not the entitled whims of people overseas.
Interesting story and perspective. However, comparing the two countries and ideologies isn't exactly the same. Iran descended into chaos and eventually terrorism mainly over religion as well as the opposition to western values and ideals. The opposition didn't like the fact that the Shah monarchy had strong ties with the west (US and UK among others). It was basically their revolution. Under the Ayatollah they went to strict sharia law and executed and/or imprisoned people that didn't comply. That isn't happening here.
I was alive and remember the hostage crisis during that time. American hostages were taken because the then overthrown Shah was in the U.S. undergoing treatment for cancer. The U.S. refused to extradite him.
I understand your perspective, but I don't agree with it.
Quote: Unfortunately, immigration lately is largely geared towards a handout.
I know you've been led to believe that, but the immigrants I've met aren't looking for a handout. I come from a family of immigrants who work their butts off. My story isn't nearly as interesting as the anchorman's but it also involves splitting a country that was heading in the wrong direction in favor of the American dream. Like the vast majority of immigrants, we succeeded by being law-abiding citizens, working hard, and getting a few lucky breaks along the way.
No one ever took a cent of welfare or took food stamps, even though we'd probably have qualified.
I think the executive orders issued on Friday will be proven to be a big, fat, huge mistake.
Quote:Interesting story and perspective. However, comparing the two countries and ideologies isn't exactly the same. Iran descended into chaos and eventually terrorism mainly over religion as well as the opposition to western values and ideals. The opposition didn't like the fact that the Shah monarchy had strong ties with the west (US and UK among others). It was basically their revolution. Under the Ayatollah they went to strict sharia law and executed and/or imprisoned people that didn't comply. That isn't happening here.
I was alive and remember the hostage crisis during that time. American hostages were taken because the then overthrown Shah was in the U.S. undergoing treatment for cancer. The U.S. refused to extradite him.
I understand your perspective, but I don't agree with it.
Syrians and Sudanese aren't fleeing persecution?
Quote:Syrians and Sudanese aren't fleeing persecution?
Perhaps they are. Does that mean that it's our problem and we should just let them flood into our country?
Quote:I stopped posting to the Politics sub-forum for quite some time. However, I think it's time for me to begin sifting through the tumultuous back and forth of this forum
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. But you guys know me. I've talked to most of the posters that visit this forum. I think it's important for you guys to realize why some "libtards" behave the way they do. So here's my story.
I was born in the USA. I was born at the Presbyterian Hospital on Central Avenue in the city of Albuquerque, NM. The reason I was born in Albuquerque was because my dad was on a school visa to earn his Ph.D. in Economics at the University of New Mexico. This was around the late 70s. My dad was born in Tehran, Iran. At the time he was granted his educational Visa, the US had a good relationship with Iran. After I was born, my Dad earned his PhD and wanted to go back home to teach and help Iran prosper.
He began his professorship at the University of Tehran in 1978. I was still just an infant. But even in 1978, [BAD WORD REMOVED] was getting crazy. Students were pretty [BAD WORD REMOVED] off at the Western ideology and wished for nothing to do with having ties to the West, especially the USA. My dad, a brand new PhD from the USA, was targeted by these ideologues. These ideologues believed that anyone from the West was the enemy and would destroy Iran. They hated my dad, not because of what he was, but because of where he came from. Even though my dad only wanted to help educate them.
He began to get death threats. 1978 Iran, from what he has told me, was a powder-keg. A populist powder-keg. People in Iran were [BAD WORD REMOVED] off. Mostly because they felt they were being over-run by outsiders. They felt that they were losing their identity. They hated the fact that the West was coming in and taking the country in a direction they felt was foreign. Protests were rampant. And the protesters wanted to ensure Iran would remain for Iranians. The protesters also were able to co-opt the highly religious within the country. The protesters made a strong push that Western ideology was against the teachings of God. They changed the minds of the religous to view anyone that was pro Western capitalism and neo-liberalism as being anti-religious.
Those that were for Western ideals were apathetic, they didn't care. Alot of them had some sympathies to keeping Iran more Iranian and less western. Populism is something that the middle class Iranians also felt. They weren't very religious, but the economic changes that were happening in Iran set up a sense of uncertainty for middle class Iranians. So as more and more demonstrations occurred that railed against western ideologies, the Iranians that felt capitalism and libertarian economic policies were best, stayed silent. After all, it's not very popular to say that a nationalistic point of view is dangerous.
As the tide began to turn towards religious fundamentalism, my dad decided to take me, my baby brother, and my mom and get the hell out of there. He realized earlier than most that an authoritarian movement had begun that would be hard to turn back.
He left his professorship in Iran to come back to the USA. Back to Albuquerque, where he earned his PhD. He left before me, my mom, and my brother got out. He had to leave us about 6 months before we left in order to tie down my mom and my brother's VISAs. I was already a citizen of the USA because I was born in Albuquerque, but my brother and mom weren't citizens and didn't have VISAs. So as the poop hit the fan, my mom left Tehran to go to Amsterdam as my dad was in Albuquerque fighting to get our my Mom and brother's VISAs granted. It was a crazy time for my refugee family. It was one that I wish never happened, but here we all are.
So I'm a US born citizen. And I've been to Iran. And I have family in Iran. My family in Iran is similar to most Christian families. They celebrate the main holidays, but they are not insane with religion anymore. But they are now stuck in a country that started out by wanting to make Iran "great" again. That's how all these movements start. The revolutionaries in Iran, the Ayatollah Khomeni, said he wanted to make Iran great again. He wanted to ensure that Iranians were well paid, well employed, and safe. He suckered the entire country, and messed that country up big time. He shut out people from coming into Iran. To this day, I cannot go into Iran anymore without fear of imprisonment. I can only see my cousins that live in the USA or Canada.
My dad hates Iran now. He sacrificed his time and energy to earn a PhD in order to go back to Iran and help modernize that country. And the morons in that country pooped all over modernized progress.
And now he we are. The country that is supposed to be the beacon to progress. The beacon to modern life. The beacon to freedom.
Here we are. That shining city on the hill. Behaving just like the Ayatollah Khomeni and his populist nationalists behaved back in 1978-1979. As a US citizen that has visited Iran, someone that knows how messed up that government is. To see our government behave just like them, with one Executive Order... It saddens me. It makes me cry.
I feel sorry for those that think Trump is doing the right thing. I feel sorry for them like I do for the kids that threatened my dad in Iran. My dad was telling them to study, to learn and to be patient. But instead, they hated my dad.
History.
History repeats itself. Sometimes not just over time. But over continents as well.
The_Anchorman
I truly feel for your families plight. I have several friends and business associates from Muslim Majority countries. I also know many people that fled the Iranian revolution to become contributing members to western society.
Having said all that, the sympathy that I feel for your families plight does not excuse your flawed, and frankly irresponsible analogy!
Did Trump Take Iranian hostages with plans to parade them around for a year to embarrass Iran? Did Trump bomb and kill Iranian soldiers in a proxy war? IS Trump propping up a strong man using chemical weapons against his own people that is causing this whole mess to begin with?
Nationalism and populism? Really. You want to try and make that stick? The reality of the wahabist and Salafist revolutions in the middle east has to do with the fact that the last 1400 years has taught us that fundamental Islamic culture is incompatible with western Ideology. Free Markets and Free societies is like a surreal dream that those parts of the world keep trying to wake up from violently. That results in the hanging of gays from cranes and the imprisonment of political or religious dissidents, not a 90 day travel ban.
For whatever reason, people seem to fail to blame leaders of Iran, Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS and the like for the inordinate violence and terrorism sweeping across western society and instead want to demonize any western head of state with the Temerity to stand up and declare that we as a society do not have to commit SUICIDE just to show how inclusive and tolerant we are!
Quote:Perhaps they are. Does that mean that it's our problem and we should just let them flood into our country?
Well, if the U.S. won't lead the way in compassion, we should just chisel Emma Lazarus's sonnet off the Statue of Liberty and scrawl "America First!" on there instead.
I guess that's probably what we'll do for the next 1-4 years.
Quote:I know you've been led to believe that, but the immigrants I've met aren't looking for a handout. I come from a family of immigrants who work their butts off. My story isn't nearly as interesting as the anchorman's but it also involves splitting a country that was heading in the wrong direction in favor of the American dream. Like the vast majority of immigrants, we succeeded by being law-abiding citizens, working hard, and getting a few lucky breaks along the way.
No one ever took a cent of welfare or took food stamps, even though we'd probably have qualified.
I think the executive orders issued on Friday will be proven to be a big, fat, huge mistake.
I'm fairly certain most of us come from a family of immigrants whether first generation or beyond. Good to see you missed my point and moved to protect your particular stance. I'm sorry you took offense and automatically assumed I meant all immigrants are looking for a handout. We all know that is not the case. The fact of the matter is, immigration whether illegal or legal has become a strain. Heck, there is a large portion of natural born putting a strain on the system. Here are some figures directly from the Center of Immigration Studies.
- In the third quarter of 2016, there were a total of 50.5 million immigrants and natives ages 18 to 65 not in the labor force, up from 43.4 million in 2007 and 37.9 million in 2000.
- Of the 50.5 million currently not in the labor force, 40.1 million (79.5 percent) did not have a bachelor’s degree.
- The above figures do not include the unemployed, who are considered to be part of the labor force because, although they are not working, they are looking for work. There were almost eight million unemployed immigrants and natives in the third quarter of this year; almost three-quarters of the unemployed are adults who do not have a bachelor’s degree.
In any case, you like many others have missed the point of the immigration executive order. Feel free to review it. There is a strong need for reform and if there wasn't, the last three administration wouldn't have brought it to light.
Quote:Well, if the U.S. won't lead the way in compassion, we should just chisel Emma Lazarus's sonnet off the Statue of Liberty and scrawl "America First!" on there instead.
I guess that's probably what we'll do for the next 1-4 years.
Immigration policies go back to 1875 because of economic and population issues. Pretty sure Miss Liberty was erected after, but I'm sure you are aware and this is just lashing out. It's hard to show compassion when you are so gruff with your points.
Quote:Well, if the U.S. won't lead the way in compassion, we should just chisel Emma Lazarus's sonnet off the Statue of Liberty and scrawl "America First!" on there instead.
I guess that's probably what we'll do for the next 1-4 years.
Compassion is one thing. Blindly letting people into our country from a country infested with terrorists is another.
Quote:Well, if the U.S. won't lead the way in compassion, we should just chisel Emma Lazarus's sonnet off the Statue of Liberty and scrawl "America First!" on there instead.
The masses you are speaking about don't "yearn to breathe free," they yearn to form their own Islamic Sharia conclave inside the US borders.
Guys, refugees aren't a bunch of terrorists in disguise just waiting to infiltrate the US, form terrorist cells, and execute long thought-out plans to blow themselves up strategically.
Those are first world issues for rich kids raised in Egypt, the Emirates or Saudi Arabia. Refugees just want people to stop killing and raping them. Some food and a warm place to sleep for a month or two would be nice.
For those of you who think I missed the point of TAM's post, this is what I got out of it:
1. Iran sucks, essentially because of nationalism. Maybe we shouldn't go down that path.
2. Refugees love their new country, hate their old one. That's why they left in the first place. Maybe we should take a few in.
3. Iran, like some other countries have a bunch of reasonable people in them that would really like a better life in a better country, and can bring a lot to that country. Maybe we're missing out when they go to Canada or the UK instead.
TAM is welcome to correct me.
My own story involves fleeing Jamaica when it went through it's own nationalistic movement in the late 70s. A guy named Michael Manley came to power promising to make Jamaica great. Guess what? He didn't. He had his own bogeyman to blame for why not all Jamaicans were finding prosperity, and that bogeyman looked an awful lot like me and my family. He drove a lot of us to Canada, the UK, and of course, the U.S. Some of us stayed and rode it out, but the country never really recovered. I'm glad I'm here, but you'll pardon me if I don't keep quiet while I see a scene from my past replaying itself in the greatest nation on earth.
Quote:Guys, refugees aren't a bunch of terrorists in disguise just waiting to infiltrate the US, form terrorist cells, and execute long thought-out plans to blow themselves up strategically.
Those are first world issues for rich kids raised in Egypt, the Emirates or Saudi Arabia. Refugees just want people to stop killing and raping them. Some food and a warm place to sleep for a month or two would be nice.
For those of you who think I missed the point of TAM's post, this is what I got out of it:
1. Iran sucks, essentially because of nationalism. Maybe we shouldn't go down that path.
2. Refugees love their new country, hate their old one. That's why they left in the first place. Maybe we should take a few in.
3. Iran, like some other countries have a bunch of reasonable people in them that would really like a better life in a better country, and can bring a lot to that country. Maybe we're missing out when they go to Canada or the UK instead.
TAM is welcome to correct me.
My own story involves fleeing Jamaica when it went through it's own nationalistic movement in the late 70s. A guy named Michael Manley came to power promising to make Jamaica great. Guess what? He didn't. He had his own bogeyman to blame for why not all Jamaicans were finding prosperity, and that bogeyman looked an awful lot like me and my family. He drove a lot of us to Canada, the UK, and of course, the U.S. Some of us stayed and rode it out, but the country never really recovered. I'm glad I'm here, but you'll pardon me if I don't keep quiet while I see a scene from my past replaying itself in the greatest nation on earth.
I'm sure Germany and Sweden appreciate all the love the migrants are bringing to their countries. I hope they don't have anymore sexual emergencies (see link below). These are military aged males in many cases and they often lie about their age to get where they are going.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...77491.html
Trump won't make America great again. You people have made a deal with the devil.
Quote:Trump won't make America great again. You people have made a deal with the devil.
okay Pat Robertson. I'll let ya know in 4 years how he did
Quote:Guys, refugees aren't a bunch of terrorists in disguise just waiting to infiltrate the US, form terrorist cells, and execute long thought-out plans to blow themselves up strategically.
And you know that how? Even if only one in a hundred were terrorists it would be foolish to take them in. This is typical of the Left, putting the needs of foreigners ahead of the needs of citizens. And unlike the case when you and TAM's family immigrated, most of these immigrants come here because they believe we owe them. They don't want to assimilate, they want to live like they did in the old country, just without the political unrest. La Raza is an example of that.
Don't try to claim that the vetting process works, the San Bernardino mass murder proves otherwise.