Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Just before my time unfortunately. Have read bits and bobs about them all. Wish I could have seen that era though, as a stifling 6-3 win would be more my cup of than a high scoring game.


[BAD WORD REMOVED] Lebeau probably runs my favourite scheme to watch. I love the mentality and style of how it works.

There are several documentaries about that '85 Bears team.

 

ESPN has a 30 for 30 on them, and I think there is one on Netflix as well.

 

It's not like watching them live, but if you get a chance, give them a look.  If you value defensive football, you would have loved watching those teams play.

As for that Steel curtain team of the 1970s...man!  They had nine (9) pro bowlers on that defense, and five (5) Hall of Famers:  "Mean" Joe Greene, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, and Mel Blount.  There should be a 6th guy in Canton-Donnie Shell.  You are familiar with the "one chuck rule" you see now where a defender can chuck a receiver once within five yards of the line of scrimmage.  That rule was instituted in large part due to Mel Blount.  Before that rule was passed in 1978, DBs could bump receivers throughout their route, no matter what part of the field.  Blount was so big, his arms so long and he was so strong, that many receivers didn't stand much chance of getting open.  That defense's best year may have been a year they DIDN'T reach the Super Bowl-1976.  They managed three straight shutouts that year, five overall.  There was a stretch where they allowed NINE (9) points over 5 weeks, and 28 points over the last nine weeks of that season.

I am trying to envision this with our current roster. I would imagine something like this? I am not a fan of the 4-3 overall though. Good thing is Smith, Jack, and Fowler are fast and strong enough to roll to either spot at any given time.

 

      Smith ---- Posluszny-------Jack ----Fowler Jr.

 

           Ngakoue------Jones-------Jackson

Quote:I am trying to envision this with our current roster. I would imagine something like this? I am not a fan of the 4-3 overall though. Good thing is Smith, Jack, and Fowler are fast and strong enough to roll to either spot at any given time.

 

      Smith ---- Posluszny-------Jack ----Fowler Jr.

 

           Ngakoue------Jones-------Jackson

 

If you are talking about a 3-4 front seven, I would replace Smith with Ngakoue, and put Odrick or Day (on passing downs) where you have Ngakoue.  I would end up trading Smith, and with the extra pick or two acquired for him, I'd draft ILBs to replace Poz.

 

I am undecided whether I'd keep Jack at ILB or have him lose weight and move him to SS in the event of a 3-4 switch.  I don't think he is particularly well suited to ILB in a 3-4.

Quote:Mike Zimmer runs a 4-3 base front on the Vikings. Often 4-2-5 in Nickel situations.

 

It's not a typical 4-3 scheme like Gus and crew ran here though. It's exotic, they blitz a lot and you rarely ever know who's coming or dropping. They also play a heavy Man Coverage.

 

You don't have to run a 3-4 to be creative on Defense.

 

This Defense is basically set to run a similar Defense like Zimmer's. You just need a good coach in here as the DC to run it.

 

  Along the lines of what you mentioned,   Mike ZImmer does a tremendous job with the Double A gap blitz packages he uses.    Having athletic LBs like Erik Kendricks and Anthony Barr certainly helps a great deal.    But that scheme often confuses the opposition.     The outside blitzes mixed in are also another ingredient that causes plenty of problems from the Offense.   More than anything,   the two games against the Vikings last season led to Joe Lombardi being fired as Lions OC because of the impact the Vikings blitzes had on the games and Matthew Stafford's health.  

Quote:Just before my time unfortunately. Have read bits and bobs about them all. Wish I could have seen that era though, as a stifling 6-3 win would be more my cup of than a high scoring game.


[BAD WORD REMOVED] Lebeau probably runs my favourite scheme to watch. I love the mentality and style of how it works.

 

  If you ever have the opportunity to watch the Giants-49ers regular season and NFC Championship games from the 1990 season,   I highly recommend them.   These were two of the best Defensive games I've ever seemed.   Every yard was hard to come by.   One mistake was enough to prevent the 49ers having a chance to 3 peat,  as they won the 2 previous Super Bowls.

Quote:  If you ever have the opportunity to watch the Giants-49ers regular season and NFC Championship games from the 1990 season,   I highly recommend them.   These were two of the best Defensive games I've ever seemed.   Every yard was hard to come by.   One mistake was enough to prevent the 49ers having a chance to 3 peat,  as they won the 2 previous Super Bowls.

Yes.

 

As a Dallas fan during that time, I hated both teams.  But those were two of the most intense games I've ever seen.

 

Two outstanding 3-4 defenses.  For that Giants team to hold that 49ers team featuring Joe Montana, Roger Craig, and Jerry Rice to 7 points at home speaks volumes as to how talented that team was and how well coached it was.

Quote:There are several documentaries about that '85 Bears team.

 

ESPN has a 30 for 30 on them, and I think there is one on Netflix as well.

 

It's not like watching them live, but if you get a chance, give them a look.  If you value defensive football, you would have loved watching those teams play.

As for that Steel curtain team of the 1970s...man!  They had nine (9) pro bowlers on that defense, and five (5) Hall of Famers:  "Mean" Joe Greene, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, and Mel Blount.  There should be a 6th guy in Canton-Donnie Shell.  You are familiar with the "one chuck rule" you see now where a defender can chuck a receiver once within five yards of the line of scrimmage.  That rule was instituted in large part due to Mel Blount.  Before that rule was passed in 1978, DBs could bump receivers throughout their route, no matter what part of the field.  Blount was so big, his arms so long and he was so strong, that many receivers didn't stand much chance of getting open.  That defense's best year may have been a year they DIDN'T reach the Super Bowl-1976.  They managed three straight shutouts that year, five overall.  There was a stretch where they allowed NINE (9) points over 5 weeks, and 28 points over the last nine weeks of that season.

 

  That 1976 Steelers Defense was truly amazing.   That's the season when they lost Terry Bradshaw in game # 5 at Cleveland to a season ending shoulder injury when DE Joe ' Turkey'  Jones grabbed Bradshaw when the play was essentially over and swung him to the ground in mid air.   That didn't stop the Steelers Defense from leading the team to 9 straight wins to close out the regular season when the Steelers had no margin of error.   Back then,  there was only 1 wildcard team per conference.   The Steelers did win the AFC Central Title though.   The Steelers then beat the Colts on the road in the playoffs,  before finally losing in the AFC Championship game to the Raiders.    If not for the injuries to RBs Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier,   I think the Steelers would have won in Oakland,  and ultimately have won the Super Bowl against the Vikings.   

 

  The two best Defensive teams I've ever seen were the 1985 Bears and the 1976 Steelers.    None were more dominant.  

Quote:Yes.

 

As a Dallas fan during that time, I hated both teams.  But those were two of the most intense games I've ever seen.

 

Two outstanding 3-4 defenses.  For that Giants team to hold that 49ers team featuring Joe Montana, Roger Craig, and Jerry Rice to 7 points at home speaks volumes as to how talented that team was and how well coached it was.

 

  The forced fumble on Roger Craig with less than 5 minutes in the NFC Championship game probably was the deciding factor.  i believe NT Erik Howard made the play.   It was probably Craig's worst moment in his stellar NFL career,

 

  The coaching was amongst the best ever.   That was on display in the Super Bowl a week later.   The Giants 1990 Defense was very talented but probably not on the 1986 level.   Yet,  the strategy to control the clock on Offense with Ottis ' OJ;  Anderson,  to keep Jim Kelly and the ultra high powered K-Gun Offense off the field,  was probably the # 1 difference in that game.    I respect Marv Levy greatly.   But the Bills probably got outcoached in the Super Bowl.

Quote:I am trying to envision this with our current roster. I would imagine something like this? I am not a fan of the 4-3 overall though. Good thing is Smith, Jack, and Fowler are fast and strong enough to roll to either spot at any given time.

 

      Smith ---- Posluszny-------Jack ----Fowler Jr.

 

           Ngakoue------Jones-------Jackson

Here's why I don't like the idea of the 3-4 at all. (Not directly at you personally Browntrouser, just at this discussion in general since it pops up every other offseason)

 

First of all, Jackson isn't fast enough to play a 3-4 DE and he isn't big enough to play 3-4 DT. So your big money DT is playing out of position.

Ngakoue just had 8 sacks as a rookie 4-3 DE. Why would we waste that talent playing him in a position whose main job is not on the pass rush.

Jones is a good DT in our current rotation. I doubt he's good enough to require double teams as you want (and need) a 3-4 DT to be.

 

Posluszny is best when he can take the ball carrier head on. He can fight off blocks from the O-line but not all game long. If Jones isn't double-teamed he's getting an O-line man every single play.

Jack is much the same story as Posluszny, though I haven't seen enough from him to say if he thrive in a 3-4.

Smith has been stellar as an OLB in the 4-3. The OLB in a 3-4 has a vastly different role because he primarily a pass rusher. Smith can rush on a blitz, I doubt he be the primary rusher.

Fowler Jr. is the only I can see in a 3-4. He has the speed and ability to play both standing up as well as with his hand down.

 

So out of the 7 guys up front the scheme only really fits one IMO. So they'd be weaker at 6 positions in order to be stronger at 1; that's terrible math. 

Quote:Here's why I don't like the idea of the 3-4 at all. (Not directly at you personally Browntrouser, just at this discussion in general since it pops up every other offseason)

 

First of all, Jackson isn't fast enough to play a 3-4 DE and he isn't big enough to play 3-4 DT. So your big money DT is playing out of position.

Ngakoue just had 8 sacks as a rookie 4-3 DE. Why would we waste that talent playing him in a position whose main job is not on the pass rush.

Jones is a good DT in our current rotation. I doubt he's good enough to require double teams as you want (and need) a 3-4 DT to be.

 

Posluszny is best when he can take the ball carrier head on. He can fight off blocks from the O-line but not all game long. If Jones isn't double-teamed he's getting an O-line man every single play.

Jack is much the same story as Posluszny, though I haven't seen enough from him to say if he thrive in a 3-4.

Smith has been stellar as an OLB in the 4-3. The OLB in a 3-4 has a vastly different role because he primarily a pass rusher. Smith can rush on a blitz, I doubt he be the primary rusher.

Fowler Jr. is the only I can see in a 3-4. He has the speed and ability to play both standing up as well as with his hand down.

 

So out of the 7 guys up front the scheme only really fits one IMO. So they'd be weaker at 6 positions in order to be stronger at 1; that's terrible math. 

I am 100% on your side I don't think we have the personel for it. But I was just looking at our current roster and trying to see what it would look like as a 3-4. On the Jackson and Jones thing I had to put Jones in the middle since theres no way in hell he could play the end spot haha. 

Quote:Here's why I don't like the idea of the 3-4 at all. (Not directly at you personally Browntrouser, just at this discussion in general since it pops up every other offseason)

 

First of all, Jackson isn't fast enough to play a 3-4 DE ¹and he isn't big enough to play 3-4 DT. So your big money DT is playing out of position.

Ngakoue just had 8 sacks as a rookie 4-3 DE. Why would we waste that talent playing him in a position whose main job is not on the pass rush.

Jones is a good DT in our current rotation. I doubt he's good enough to require double teams as you want (and need) a 3-4 DT to be.²

 

Posluszny is best when he can take the ball carrier head on. He can fight off blocks from the O-line but not all game long. If Jones isn't double-teamed he's getting an O-line man every single play.

Jack is much the same story as Posluszny, though I haven't seen enough from him to say if he thrive in a 3-4.

Smith has been stellar as an OLB in the 4-3. The OLB in a 3-4 has a vastly different role because he primarily a pass rusher. Smith can rush on a blitz, I doubt he be the primary rusher.³

Fowler Jr. is the only I can see in a 3-4. He has the speed and ability to play both standing up as well as with his hand down.⁴

 

So out of the 7 guys up front the scheme only really fits one IMO. So they'd be weaker at 6 positions in order to be stronger at 1; that's terrible math. 

I agree with the overall sentiment we don't have the personnel to switch to a 3-4, but I differ with you on some parts of your analysis.

 

1.  As a general rule, 3-4 DLs have been space/block eaters.  Their task has been primarily to occupy blocks so the LBs can make all of the plays.  As such, speed isn't as much of a prerequisite to the 3-4 DE position as size and power.  This is why I do not think a lack of speed is necessarily an impediment to Jackson playing 3-4 DE effectively, especially considering he played a 3-4 DE in Denver.

 

2.  At 6-2, 246, Ngakoue would be ill suited to play DE in a 3-4.  However, he is close to ideal size for a 3-4 OLB.  I share your uncertainty regarding Jones and his ability to play a 3-4 NT effectively, though I have been pleasantly surprised with what I have seen out of him.

 

3.  I don't think Smith has the size to be an effective 3-4 OLB, particularly in a blitz heavy scheme.  The general impression I have had is when he has blitzed, the team has schemed him to come free.  It would be different in a 3-4.  Teams often scheme the LT to block the ROLB in passing downs, and I don't see him having the length to keep the LT at bay or the power/bulk to bull rush him effectively.  I wouldn't see him as being able to hold up effectively at the point of attack, whereas a 4-3 provides him better cover. 

 

4.  I agree that Fowler could be a very good fit in a 3-4.

Quote:  The forced fumble on Roger Craig with less than 5 minutes in the NFC Championship game probably was the deciding factor.  i believe NT Erik Howard made the play.   It was probably Craig's worst moment in his stellar NFL career,

 

  The coaching was amongst the best ever.   That was on display in the Super Bowl a week later.   The Giants 1990 Defense was very talented but probably not on the 1986 level.   Yet,  the strategy to control the clock on Offense with Ottis ' OJ;  Anderson,  to keep Jim Kelly and the ultra high powered K-Gun Offense off the field,  was probably the # 1 difference in that game.    I respect Marv Levy greatly.   But the Bills probably got outcoached in the Super Bowl.

I think those Buffalo teams-in addition to the 1980s Denver teams- contributed to my bias against the 3-4/preference for a 4-3.

 

Prior to the Bills ascent to the Super Bowl, they had a great NT in Fred Smerlas.  But when they were good enough to be a Super Bowl team, they had Jeff Wright, who wasn't as big, powerful or as talented as Smerlas.  Combined with Bruce Smith's weight loss, the Bills would prove to be physically outmatched in each of those four Super Bowls.  Their defensive front seven was unable to hold up against the bigger, more physical run blocking NFC east teams.  In each of those Super Bowls, the Giants, Skins, and Cowboys ran the ball down their throats.  The same held true when Denver made the Super Bowl during that era.  Watching those teams suffer so greatly during that time made me convinced the 3-4 was a size dependent scheme. 

 

I agree completely with your analysis about that 1990 Giants defense not being as good as that 1986 defense.

Quote:Fair points.


I still believe the personnel in place is not only better suited to a 4/3 - I believe they can be a very good 4/3.


I watch and re-watch the games while gauging individual players and their contributions - and it leaves me thinking this 4/3 defense can be very good with a SS that can cover when needed and one more relevant pass rusher.

I agree. The 2 biggest reasons for a 3/4 D is one to find a spot for Myles Jack. Poz had a pretty good year but Telvin Smith is more of a ILB in a 3/4. So we don't really gain there.


The other reason is most think Fowler is a better 3/4 OLB. However I think we should just move around, DE, 4/3 SAM, etc. Draft a new weak side DE with the 4th pick and this defense will be special

Quote:  That 1976 Steelers Defense was truly amazing.   That's the season when they lost Terry Bradshaw in game # 5 at Cleveland to a season ending shoulder injury when DE Joe ' Turkey'  Jones grabbed Bradshaw when the play was essentially over and swung him to the ground in mid air.   That didn't stop the Steelers Defense from leading the team to 9 straight wins to close out the regular season when the Steelers had no margin of error.   Back then,  there was only 1 wildcard team per conference.   The Steelers did win the AFC Central Title though.   The Steelers then beat the Colts on the road in the playoffs,  before finally losing in the AFC Championship game to the Raiders.    If not for the injuries to RBs Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier,   I think the Steelers would have won in Oakland,  and ultimately have won the Super Bowl against the Vikings.   

 

  The two best Defensive teams I've ever seen were the 1985 Bears and the 1976 Steelers.    None were more dominant.  

 

For some additional context...

 

1.  I have also referenced the late 1980's Early 90s Ryan Era Eagles as among the most dominant defenses.  Buddy Ryan (Rex Ryan's dad) was the defensive coordinator for that 1985 Bears team.  He created the 46 scheme that Bears team used to legendary effect.  He became head coach in Philadelphia in 1986 and implemented that scheme there.  With an in his prime Reggie White, Jerome Brown (arguably the most physically talented DT ever to come out of Miami), an in his prime Clyde Simmons (yes the same one who played with us), Seth Joyner, Wes Hopkins, Eric Allen, Ryan was able to reproduce the destructive defense he made in Chicago.  He jsut was never able to create an offense good enough to carry its share of the load.

 

2.  Those 70's Steelers ran a 4-3 cover two-the same scheme that Tony Dungy used to create the Tampa with which the Bucs became so dominant under him.

 

If I had to rate the all time best 3-4 defenses it might go something like...(though admittedly this is a work in progress and subject to change with more thought)

 

1.  1986 Giants (LT, Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Pepper Johnson, Leonard Marshall, George Martin)

2.  Cowher era Steelers (Joel Steed, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Levon Kirkland, Rod Woodson, Carnell Lake)

3.  2015 Denver

4.  Flores era Raiders (Howie Long, Bill Pickel, Lyle Alzado, Ted Hendricks, Lester Hayes, Mike Haynes, Vann McElroy

5.  Belichick era Pats (Seymour, Wilfork, Ted Johnson, Ted Bruschi, Law, Milloy, Harrison)

6.  1977 Orange Crush Broncos (Reuben Carter, Lyle Alzado, Tom Jackson, Randy Gradishar, Louis Wright) 2003-2014 Baltimore Ravens (Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Ed Reed)

7.  Schottenheimer era Chiefs (Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, Dale Carter, Bill Maas)

8. Mora era Saints (Pat Swilling, Vaughn Johnson, Sam Mills, Rickey Jackson) 1977 Orange Crush Broncos (Reuben Carter, Lyle Alzado, Tom Jackson, Randy Gradishar, Louis Wright)

9.  Levy era Bills (1988 Smerlas, Bruce Smith, Art Still, Cornelius Bennett, Shane Conlan, Darrell Talley, Nate Odomes)

10.  Walsh era 49ers (possibly most underrated 3-4 defense)

11.  Schottenheimer era Browns (Bob Golic, Clay Matthews Sr., Chip Banks, Hanford Dixon, Frank Minniefield)

I appreciated the 90's Dallas Defenses but I didn't like watching them win.  I was a big time fan of the cowboys in the 80's.  I didn't like them anymore when Jeruh took over.

I was a fan of the move to a 3-4 scheme. But after seeing how the D played this year, I say we keep the 4-3 in tact and just draft/FA sign a few players to fill in the weaknesses. No need to change the scheme if it's working.

Quote:I think those Buffalo teams-in addition to the 1980s Denver teams- contributed to my bias against the 3-4/preference for a 4-3.

 

Prior to the Bills ascent to the Super Bowl, they had a great NT in Fred Smerlas.  But when they were good enough to be a Super Bowl team, they had Jeff Wright, who wasn't as big, powerful or as talented as Smerlas.  Combined with Bruce Smith's weight loss, the Bills would prove to be physically outmatched in each of those four Super Bowls.  Their defensive front seven was unable to hold up against the bigger, more physical run blocking NFC east teams.  In each of those Super Bowls, the Giants, Skins, and Cowboys ran the ball down their throats.  The same held true when Denver made the Super Bowl during that era.  Watching those teams suffer so greatly during that time made me convinced the 3-4 was a size dependent scheme. 

 

I agree completely with your analysis about that 1990 Giants defense not being as good as that 1986 defense.

 

   Excellent thoughts!

 

   Even with John Elway at QB,  it's nothing short of amazing that the Broncos made it to the Super Bowl 3 times in 4 seasons in the late 1980's.    IMO,  Broncos Defensive Coordinator Joe Collier  got more out of his talent than practically any coach ever did.   The Broncos certainly were undersized and out-manned and it caught up to them in the 3 Super Bowls.   But prior to that during those seasons,  Collier did it with mirrors to get to those Super Bowls.   Elway himself could only do so much.  The Defensive talent and scheme had flaws but good coaching can go a very long way.  

Quote:I don't know how old you are, but I tell you as a football fan, some of the most beautiful things I've seen (unless you were a fan of a team on the other side of them) was watching the old Steel Curtain, Doomsday, '84-86 Bears, and Ryan era Eagles defenses.  They were absolutely brutal and dominant.  They stifled the run and oppressed opposing QBs.  I would take any of those defenses against ANY 3-4 defense you could name and serve as one of the main reasons I prefer to run a 4-3.

I was born in '87

I prefer 3-4DD over 3-4D.

 

More effective jumbo package.

Quote:   Excellent thoughts!

 

   Even with John Elway at QB,  it's nothing short of amazing that the Broncos made it to the Super Bowl 3 times in 4 seasons in the late 1980's.    IMO,  Broncos Defensive Coordinator Joe Collier  got more out of his talent than practically any coach ever did.   The Broncos certainly were undersized and out-manned and it caught up to them in the 3 Super Bowls.   But prior to that during those seasons,  Collier did it with mirrors to get to those Super Bowls.   Elway himself could only do so much.  The Defensive talent and scheme had flaws but good coaching can go a very long way.  

Interesting that Belichick credits Collier with teaching him the 3-4.  I remember reading an article years ago where Collier indicated the 3-4 was size dependent, and that it couldn't work without a stud at DT. (I've been trying to find it for a while.  I will post when I can find it) Greg Kragen had a pretty good career for himself, but it's amazing they got as far as they did with him at NT and Rulon Jones at DE.

 

Compounding Denver's size issues is that they weren't an especially fast defense, either, as evidenced in those three 1980s Super Bowls.