Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:I was born in '87

Ahhh...youth. 

Let me try to add some context to my arguments in this thread.

 

1.  When you were born, the NFC was in the midst of winning THIRTEEN (13) STRAIGHT Super Bowls, most by extremely embarrassing fashion.  The scores were as follows:

 

XIX- San Francisco 38-Miami 16

XX-Chicago 46-New England 10

XXI NY Giants 39-Denver 20

XXII Washington 42 Denver10 (This was for the season played in 1987)

XXIII  San Francisco 20 Cincinnati 16

XXIV San Francisco 55 Denver 10

XXV NY Giants 20 Buffalo 19

XXVI Washington 37 Buffalo 26

XXVII Dallas 52 Buffalo 17

XXVIII Dallas 30 Buffalo 13

XXIX San Francisco 49 San Diego 26

XXX Dallas 27 Pittsburgh 17

XXXI Green Bay 35 New England 21

 

The 1994 Chargers were the only one of those AFC teams during that stretch that played a 4-3.  Cincinnati (Tim Krumrie) and Pittsburgh (Steed) were the only teams with legitimate NTs in my opinion.  The Dallas teams that played in those Super Bowls during that time featured what may well have been the most dominant run blocking O Line in history, along with Emmitt Smith.  Pittsburgh was the one team in those postseasons able to stop Emmitt Smith and the Dallas running game,and it was due to having a big front 7 and stud NT.

 

2.  You were in your late teens when the JDR/Mike Smith defenses with Stroud and Henderson were at their peak. 

 

Imagine that team with a young, healthy JJ Watt playing LDE (Reggie White), a healthy Reggie Hayward playing RDE (Clyde Simmons), Luke Kuechly at Will (Seth Joyner), a slightly less physical version of Jalen Ramsey (Erik Allen), a cheap shot artist in the box version of Donovin Darius (Andre Waters) in a blitz happier version of the Fisher led tacks and you have something that approximates that Ryan era Eagles defense.

 

3.  I would say since you were born, the best defenses were that Eagles team, the Cowher era Steelers, the 2000 Ravens team, Dungy Era Bucs+ 1st Gruden year, Seattle 2013-2015, and Denver last year.

Quote:I prefer 3-4DD over 3-4D.

 

More effective jumbo package.

I think there are websites that illustrate that.

Quote:Interesting that Belichick credits Collier with teaching him the 3-4.  I remember reading an article years ago where Collier indicated the 3-4 was size dependent, and that it couldn't work without a stud at DT. (I've been trying to find it for a while.  I will post when I can find it) Greg Kragen had a pretty good career for himself, but it's amazing they got as far as they did with him at NT and Rulon Jones at DE.

 

  What you mentioned brought back memories of the Broncos drafting undersized DT-NT Ted Gregory in Round 1 in 1987.   Gregory never played a regular season or post-season game for the Broncos.   The next year he was traded to the Saints for DT-DE Shawn Knight,  also a 1st Round pick in 1987.   Both players were colossal busts.  It's rare when teams give up on 1st Round picks this quickly but it was justified.  

 

  Another memory brought back was from my youth when listening to Sports Talk show host Pete Franklin on then 3WE 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland,  a station that can be heard at night in 38 states and half of Canada when atmospheric conditions are right.   The call letters now are WTAM.   At least for me,  when Pete Franklin was in Cleveland,  he was the best sports talk host I've ever heard.   Not even close.    Pete Franklin put together an annual Draft Report.   He was pounding the table for the Browns to draft Rulon Jones.   They took RB Charles White instead,  who turned out to be a much better college RB than NFL RB.  Jones went in the 2nd round to the Broncos and was part of teams that denied the Browns a chance at reaching the Super Bowl in AFC Championship games. 

 

 A Casey Hampton type of NT or an in shape Jerry Ball would have made a huge positive difference for those Broncos teams and the Bills teams that fell short 4 straight years in the Bowl.

Quote:  What you mentioned brought back memories of the Broncos drafting undersized DT-NT Ted Gregory in Round 1 in 1987.   Gregory never played a regular season or post-season game for the Broncos.   The next year he was traded to the Saints for DT-DE Shawn Knight,  also a 1st Round pick in 1987.   Both players were colossal busts.  It's rare when teams give up on 1st Round picks this quickly but it was justified.  

 

  Another memory brought back was from my youth when listening to Sports Talk show host Pete Franklin on then 3WE 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland,  a station that can be heard at night in 38 states and half of Canada when atmospheric conditions are right.   The call letters now are WTAM.   At least for me,  when Pete Franklin was in Cleveland,  he was the best sports talk host I've ever heard.   Not even close.    Pete Franklin put together an annual Draft Report.   He was pounding the table for the Browns to draft Rulon Jones.   They took RB Charles White instead,  who turned out to be a much better college RB than NFL RB.  Jones went in the 2nd round to the Broncos and was part of teams that denied the Browns a chance at reaching the Super Bowl in AFC Championship games. 

 

 A Casey Hampton type of NT or an in shape Jerry Ball would have made a huge positive difference for those Broncos teams and the Bills teams that fell short 4 straight years in the Bowl.

That 1987 draft is probably the worst draft I've ever seen, followed closely by 2013.

 

If memory serves, Charles White had drug issues in Cleveland.  Actually, the Browns of that era had some horrible luck with drugs during that time with him, Don Rogers, Chip Banks, and Kevin Mack. While Rulon Jones was a good pass rusher, I'm not entirely sure how much he would have helped Cleveland.

 

As to your closing point, Denver and moreso Buffalo would have benefited greatly from a big physical NT like the two you mentioned above.  Ball was an absolute beast when in shape.  He was the one guy I saw dominate Mark Stepnoski.  It is my deepest hope that if the Jaguars should switch to a 3-4, they find a stud NT like the ones you mention here as quickly as humanly possible.

Quote:I appreciated the 90's Dallas Defenses but I didn't like watching them win.  I was a big time fan of the cowboys in the 80's.  I didn't like them anymore when Jeruh took over.

To me, those Dallas defenses were good and effective, but less than dominant. 

 

Jerry Jones made it easier for me to transition to a Jaguars fan.  The only good thing he did was hire his college roommate, Jimmy Johnson, but negated that by getting rid of him years later.

Quote:I was a fan of the move to a 3-4 scheme. But after seeing how the D played this year, I say we keep the 4-3 in tact and just draft/FA sign a few players to fill in the weaknesses. No need to change the scheme if it's working.

I would switch to a more conventional 4-3, to get something out of the LDE spot other than a space eater.

Quote:That 1987 draft is probably the worst draft I've ever seen, followed closely by 2013.

 

If memory serves, Charles White had drug issues in Cleveland.  Actually, the Browns of that era had some horrible luck with drugs during that time with him, Don Rogers, Chip Banks, and Kevin Mack. While Rulon Jones was a good pass rusher, I'm not entirely sure how much he would have helped Cleveland.

 

As to your closing point, Denver and moreso Buffalo would have benefited greatly from a big physical NT like the two you mentioned above.  Ball was an absolute beast when in shape.  He was the one guy I saw dominate Mark Stepnoski.  It is my deepest hope that if the Jaguars should switch to a 3-4, they find a stud NT like the ones you mention here as quickly as humanly possible.

 

  Both drafts had a high number of draft busts.   Yet,  the excellent players such as Charles Woodson,  the late Jerome Brown ( who you mentioned earlier on in the thread ),  and Cornelius Bennett jump out from the upper part of the 1987 Draft.    That also was the draft that produced two Lions NTs that a major impact in the NFL:  Jerry Ball and Dan Saleaumua.     The latter became arguably the best ' Plan B'  FA signing in NFL history,  as he became a key piece with the KC Chiefs.    My take on the 2013 Draft is the first half of Round 1 produced far less than the typical draft but the rest of that draft was at least in the average range.   It certainly was Martin Mayhew's best overall draft.

 

 Recreational drug use was highly problematic in the NFL and in sports in general back in the 1980's.   The Browns were indeed hit hard by this.   The tragic ending of Don Rogers and the impact that had on eventual 1987 1st Round Draft bust Reggie Rogers,  his younger brother,   had far reaching consequences.    Then Browns owner Art Modell tried to put in a support system to get help for his players with substance abuse issues.    The short time frame that drug abuse that claimed the lives of Len Bias and Don Rogers was one of the most difficult that the North American sports world and its fan have ever gone through.

 

 One additional thought about Jerry Ball was his mobility and range for a big man when he was even in decent shape.   He was a tremendous athlete.   ILBs Chris Spielman and Dennis Gibson certainly benefited from him,  with Spielman being one of the best players at his position.    Gibson went on to the Chargers,  where he made the game clinching play in the 1994 season AFC Championship Game in Pittsburgh.    If the Chargers move to Los Angeles,  that will be the San Diego Chargers all time highlight in the Super Bowl era,  in terms of positive impact.  

 

 Speaking of the Chargers,  a few years later,   they had another eventual long time NT in Jamal Williams who seems like an example of the type of NT you would want in Jacksonville if the Jaguars go to a 3-4 Defense.    Williams was a massive,  powerful NT,  who did a great job of occupying blockers and controlling the interior.   One of the best Supplemental Draft picks ever!

If we go 34, Dontari Poe is available in the offseason

Quote:If we go 34, Dontari Poe is available in the offseason

 

    The major question is will Dontari Poe hit the open market?

 

   The Chiefs will very likely try to sign him or S Eric Berry and use the Franchise Tag on the other if they can't agree to a contract before the tag deadline.  

Quote:  Both drafts had a high number of draft busts.   Yet,  the excellent players such as Charles Rod Woodson,  the late Jerome Brown ( who you mentioned earlier on in the thread ),  and Cornelius Bennett jump out from the upper part of the 1987 Draft.    That also was the draft that produced two Lions NTs that a major impact in the NFL:  Jerry Ball and Dan Saleaumua.     The latter became arguably the best ' Plan B'  FA signing in NFL history,  as he became a key piece with the KC Chiefs.    My take on the 2013 Draft is the first half of Round 1 produced far less than the typical draft but the rest of that draft was at least in the average range.   It certainly was Martin Mayhew's best overall draft.

 

 Recreational drug use was highly problematic in the NFL and in sports in general back in the 1980's.   The Browns were indeed hit hard by this.   The tragic ending of Don Rogers and the impact that had on eventual 1987 1st Round Draft bust Reggie Rogers,  his younger brother,   had far reaching consequences.    Then Browns owner Art Modell tried to put in a support system to get help for his players with substance abuse issues.    The short time frame that drug abuse that claimed the lives of Len Bias and Don Rogers was one of the most difficult that the North American sports world and its fan have ever gone through.

 

 One additional thought about Jerry Ball was his mobility and range for a big man when he was even in decent shape.   He was a tremendous athlete.   ILBs Chris Spielman and Dennis Gibson certainly benefited from him,  with Spielman being one of the best players at his position.    Gibson went on to the Chargers,  where he made the game clinching play in the 1994 season AFC Championship Game in Pittsburgh.    If the Chargers move to Los Angeles,  that will be the San Diego Chargers all time highlight in the Super Bowl era,  in terms of positive impact.  

 

 Speaking of the Chargers,  a few years later,   they had another eventual long time NT in Jamal Williams who seems like an example of the type of NT you would want in Jacksonville if the Jaguars go to a 3-4 Defense.    Williams was a massive,  powerful NT,  who did a great job of occupying blockers and controlling the interior.   One of the best Supplemental Draft picks ever!

That was Rod Woodson, not Charles.  I do that all the time.

 

What struck me about Ball was his power and leverage.  He was so short he could get under a guy's pads easily.  Stepnoski was a great leverage player, but Ball would have great success against him.

 

Jamal Williams and Saleamua were two underrated NTs.  If the Jaguars made the mistake of switching to a 3-4, I agree they could use a guy like Williams at the nose.

Quote:If we go 34, Dontari Poe is available in the offseason

 

Quote:    The major question is will Dontari Poe hit the open market?

 

   The Chiefs will very likely try to sign him or S Eric Berry and use the Franchise Tag on the other if they can't agree to a contract before the tag deadline.  

D6 nailed it.

 

That's the frustrating thing about free agency to fans looking for an upgrade at a position.  This time of year, the list of potential free agents is often mouth watering.  However, by the time free agency opens in March, that list is whittled down considerably.

 

I would be astonished if Poe hits the open market.  Absolutely floored. 

 

But if we switched to a 3-4, I'd want the team to go all out to get him.

Quote:If we go 34, Dontari Poe is available in the offseason

While Poe may not hit free agency, Brandon Williams likely will and would also fit the role of a true 3-4 NT.

Bullseye and D6 have much better memories than I do.  Impressive recollection skills, gents. 

 

 

That is all.

 

 

Carry on. 

Our best defense with Stroud and Henderson in the early years was a make shift 3-4 or 4-3 with the big end and rusher in Bobby McCray