The point of this exercise is to look at the relation the heisman trophy has played in picking the NFL draft's top QB(s). And since the NFL is always changing, we will stick to relatively 'recent' draft/heisman history.
First off though, let's talk about the Heisman.
You can say what you will about the actual Heisman ceremony and award, but it's purpose is valid, and that is to find the concensus best player in college football, which I believe it has done correctly over the last many years. And almost down to a 't', the NFL QB draft has followed in the Heisman's footsteps when picking it's top franchise quarterbacks.
Quote:The year 2010, Sam Bradford is the consensus best QB on the field in college football, won the heisman, and went number 1 in the draft.
The year 2011, Cam Newton is the consensus best QB on the field in college football, won the heisman, and went number 1 in the draft.
The year 2012, Luck and RG3 were almost equally the consensus best QBs on the field in college football, one won the heisman, the other was invited to the ceremony, they went number 1 and 2 in the draft.
The year is 2013, And what? An anomaly! For the first time in almost 5-years, a QB is not selected #1? Why was that? Perhaps because the consensus BEST quarterback on the field in college football, and reigning heisman winner(Manziel) was only a freshman and had to wait one year. This again shows almost uncanny relationship between the Heisman winning QB and the top QB draft-pick. With teams seemingly waiting for the current Heisman holder to become eligible
2014, We'll skip this year since this is where we're at.
The year is 2015, most people I know already have Jameis Winston penned in as the #1 QB draft pick of 2015, and for good reason.<strong> Last year he was the consensus best QB on the field in college football, won the heisman, and likely deserves to be #1 in the 2015 draft.</strong>
2016, We can only assume the next Heisman winning QB will be #1 again.
Now, to the point.
Some people on these boards seem to think that picking Johnny at the top QB represents a 'dangerous draft pick', or would be some kind of historic shift in the NFL draft, and I beg to differ.
IMO, Bortles and Bridgewater are the truly interesting ones, the 'real history-changers', especially if either or both were to go #1 and or #3. As that will effectively be the first time two QBs who were never even invited to the Heisman ceremony went that high in at least 5 or 6 years.
(*As a side note, I wouldn't mind Bridgewater personally), but the Heisman-trend over the last half-decade is pretty clear.
Anyways, I truly don't mean to start an argument here, just a civil discussion amongst fans of the same team.
And I'm just curious what other Jaguar fans think about bucking the Heisman trend this year when our teams is right there with the possibility of getting "the concensus best/Heisman QB", only to I presume revisit the Heisman-trend next year with WInston and theoretically all future Heisman QBs?
Answer is no. There are too many heisman winners to fail at the next level to even consider it as a trend.
If awards and credentials influenced draft stock, AJ McCarron would be a top five pick.
Quote:Answer is no. There are too many heisman winners to fail at the next level to even consider it as a trend.
Tim Tebow, Troy Smith, Matt Leinart, Jason White, Eric Crouch, Chris Weinke, Danny Wuerffel to name a few.
There may be a little hope left for Leinart though.
Some of you seem to be missing the point.
1)I am speaking of 'recent' history(as said in the first post). Listen, the NFL game is changing, if you can't/don't see that, you are blind. The college game IS translating, both with coaches(chip kelly) and players (Cam Newton). QBs are coming in ready to play the first day. And IMO, the best QB in college football will for the next many years be the top pick in the NFL draft. There is no difference this year for me.
2)Secondly, I never said it was just about awards. And I was certainly not saying whoever gets the most collegiate awards gets to be picked first. The point was what the Heisman represents: the best player(or in this case QB) in college football. And if any of you have an honest bone in your body, you will admit that Johnny Manziel on the collegiate football field has outplayed every other QB in college over the last 2-years. When Bradford, Newton, Luck/RG3, and I presume Winston next year outplayed every other QB in college, they all went number 1.
The Heisman means your the best, and being THE BEST amongst your peers has meant something over the last 5 drafts. I hope it's reality, not just petty bias or hatred for Manziel that's going to rewrite that trend this year.
Quote:Some of you seem to be missing the point.
1)I am speaking of 'recent' history(as said in the first post). Listen, the NFL game is changing, if you can't/don't see that, you are blind. The college game IS translating, both with coaches(chip kelly) and players (Cam Newton). QBs are coming in ready to play the first day. And IMO, the best QB in college football will for the next many years be the top pick in the NFL draft. There is no difference this year for me.
2)Secondly, I never said it was just about awards. And I was certainly not saying whoever gets the most collegiate awards gets to be picked first. The point was what the Heisman represents: the best player(or in this case QB) in college football. And if any of you have an honest bone in your body, you will admit that Johnny Manziel on the collegiate football field has outplayed every other QB in college over the last 2-years. When Bradford, Newton, Luck/RG3, and I presume Winston next year outplayed every other QB in college, they all went number 1.
The Heisman means your the best, and being THE BEST amongst your peers has meant something over the last 5 drafts. I hope it's reality, not just petty bias or hatred for Manziel that's going to rewrite that trend this year.
There is no bias
Its just being moronic to draft off of accolades.
Cam was an freak of nature at 6'5, 4.5 40yd dash, and a top 5 arm
When your that gifted, anything you do will translate
RG3 got exposed, Bradford hasn't done anything at St Louis
By your theory Vince Young should be better than Cutler right???
Quote:Some of you seem to be missing the point.
1)I am speaking of 'recent' history(as said in the first post). Listen, the NFL game is changing, if you can't/don't see that, you are blind. The college game IS translating, both with coaches(chip kelly) and players (Cam Newton). QBs are coming in ready to play the first day. And IMO, the best QB in college football will for the next many years be the top pick in the NFL draft. There is no difference this year for me.
2)Secondly, I never said it was just about awards. And I was certainly not saying whoever gets the most collegiate awards gets to be picked first. The point was what the Heisman represents: the best player(or in this case QB) in college football. And if any of you have an honest bone in your body, you will admit that Johnny Manziel on the collegiate football field has outplayed every other QB in college over the last 2-years. When Bradford, Newton, Luck/RG3, and I presume Winston next year outplayed every other QB in college, they all went number 1.
The Heisman means your the best, and being THE BEST amongst your peers has meant something over the last 5 drafts. I hope it's reality, not just petty bias or hatred for Manziel that's going to rewrite that trend this year.
If you're looking at recent history then you have to include both Tebow and Troy Smith and exclude Manziel as he hasn't done a thing at the next level yet. You cant cherry pick it to suit your argument.
No, not at all. Only 1 Heisman winning QB in college has won a playoff game in the last 26 YEARS. A Heisman doesn't mean anything for a prospect coming into the pros.
Quote:Some of you seem to be missing the point.
1)I am speaking of 'recent' history(as said in the first post). Listen, the NFL game is changing, if you can't/don't see that, you are blind. The college game IS translating, both with coaches(chip kelly) and players (Cam Newton). QBs are coming in ready to play the first day. And IMO, the best QB in college football will for the next many years be the top pick in the NFL draft. There is no difference this year for me.
2)Secondly, I never said it was just about awards. And I was certainly not saying whoever gets the most collegiate awards gets to be picked first. The point was what the Heisman represents: the best player(or in this case QB) in college football. And if any of you have an honest bone in your body, you will admit that Johnny Manziel on the collegiate football field has outplayed every other QB in college over the last 2-years. When Bradford, Newton, Luck/RG3, and I presume Winston next year outplayed every other QB in college, they all went number 1.
The Heisman means your the best, and being THE BEST amongst your peers has meant something over the last 5 drafts. I hope it's reality, not just petty bias or hatred for Manziel that's going to rewrite that trend this year.
He didn't outplay Jameis last season.
Quote:Its just being moronic to draft off of accolades.
I would change the word accolades there to 'on the field achievements'. I am using the Heisman award only as a symbol for highlighting Johnny as the best QB at the collegiate level. Listen, I know CAm wasn't picked #1 because had the heisman. He was picked number 1 because he was the best collegiate QB at the time, which the heisman agreed with and highlighted. Do you see the connection?
Perhaps let's change the topic from Manziel, back to Bortles and Bridgewater...
Last year in the minds of the Heisman trust(who know football better than anyone on these boards, including me), neither Bortles nor Bridgewater were even deemed in the top 4 of QBs in their age group/at the collegiate level. Really think about that, let that sink in. They weren't even invited.
So how are so many on these boards so sure then that QBs who weren't even the best against players their own age, will come into the NFL and magically become 'the best' in the NFL and lead us to a SuperBowl?
At least with guys like Newton, and MAnziel, they WERE LITERALLY THE best in college, they absolutely obliterated opponents on the collegiate level, and so that gives us at least some hope that they may do it on the next level.
Quote:Some of you seem to be missing the point.
1)I am speaking of 'recent' history(as said in the first post). Listen, the NFL game is changing, if you can't/don't see that, you are blind. The college game IS translating, both with coaches(chip kelly) and players (Cam Newton). QBs are coming in ready to play the first day. And IMO, the best QB in college football will for the next many years be the top pick in the NFL draft. There is no difference this year for me.
2)Secondly, I never said it was just about awards. And I was certainly not saying whoever gets the most collegiate awards gets to be picked first. The point was what the Heisman represents: the best player(or in this case QB) in college football. And if any of you have an honest bone in your body, you will admit that Johnny Manziel on the collegiate football field has outplayed every other QB in college over the last 2-years. When Bradford, Newton, Luck/RG3, and I presume Winston next year outplayed every other QB in college, they all went number 1.
The Heisman means your the best, and being THE BEST amongst your peers has meant something over the last 5 drafts. I hope it's reality, not just petty bias or hatred for Manziel that's going to rewrite that trend this year.
I bet I can guess why you're bringing this up,
JohnnyJaguar. Perhaps you should stop to consider your own bias.
Quote:I would change the word accolades there to 'on the field achievements'. I am using the Heisman award only as a symbol for highlighting Johnny as the best QB at the collegiate level. Listen, I know CAm wasn't picked #1 because had the heisman. He was picked number 1 because he was the best collegiate QB at the time, which the heisman agreed with and highlighted. Do you see the connection?
Perhaps let's change the topic from Manziel, back to Bortles and Bridgewater...
Last year in the minds of the Heisman trust(who know football better than anyone on these boards, including me), neither Bortles nor Bridgewater were even deemed in the top 4 of QBs in their age group/at the collegiate level. Really think about that, let that sink in. They weren't even invited.
So how are so many on these boards so sure then that QBs who weren't even the best against players their own age, will come into the NFL and magically become 'the best' in the NFL and lead us to a SuperBowl?[/b]
At least with guys like Newton, and MAnziel, they WERE LITERALLY THE best in college, they absolutely obliterated opponents on the collegiate level, and so that gives us at least some hope that they may do it on the next level.
Again, your argument is lacking.
If the "Heisman trust" knew anything, Where is Tom Brady's heisman? Drew Brees? Kaepernick? Russell Wilson's? Joe Flacco's? Aaron Rodgers? Etc etc.
Quote:I would change the word accolades there to 'on the field achievements'. I am using the Heisman award only as a symbol for highlighting Johnny as the best QB at the collegiate level. Listen, I know CAm wasn't picked #1 because had the heisman. He was picked number 1 because he was the best collegiate QB at the time, which the heisman agreed with and highlighted. Do you see the connection?
Perhaps let's change the topic from Manziel, back to Bortles and Bridgewater...
Last year in the minds of the Heisman trust(who know football better than anyone on these boards, including me), neither Bortles nor Bridgewater were even deemed in the top 4 of QBs in their age group/at the collegiate level. Really think about that, let that sink in. They weren't even invited.
So how are so many on these boards so sure then that QBs who weren't even the best against players their own age, will come into the NFL and magically become 'the best' in the NFL and lead us to a SuperBowl?
At least with guys like Newton, and MAnziel, they WERE LITERALLY THE best in college, they absolutely obliterated opponents on the collegiate level, and so that gives us at least some hope that they may do it on the next level.
Two things, Several things actually
If Cam Newton at Auburn was playing on A&M, they would be National Champions and maybe one of the most dominant teams of the decade
Manziel has a NFL protecting him, Mike Evans who is a complete monster and solid solid supporting cast
Cam had none of that
Don't compare the two
Second, Winston was the better play last year, much better qb. and I think Hackenberg was arguably better
None of this on field accolades matter to begin with
Quote:Again, your argument is lacking.
If the "Heisman trust" knew anything, Where is Tom Brady's heisman? Drew Brees? Kaepernick? Russell Wilson's? Joe Flacco's? Aaron Rodgers? Etc etc.
For a Manziel fan, you have some sense
Quote:If Cam Newton at Auburn was playing on A&M, they would be National Champions and maybe one of the most dominant teams of the decade
Manziel has a NFL protecting him, Mike Evans who is a complete monster and solid solid supporting cast
No, no, no. Just no. Please remind me of an SEC team that has had worst DEFENSE statistically in your recent memory than A&M did last year? Both Cam and Manziel did what they did in the SEC on teams severely lacking in several departments.
Quote:No, no, no. Just no. Please remind me of an SEC team that has had worst DEFENSE statistically in your recent memory than A&M did last year? Both Cam and Manziel did what they did in the SEC on teams severely lacking in several departments.
Please get off Manziels jock and think clearly for a second.
Ridiculous, people want to start putting Manziel and Cam in the same sentence.
Quote:He didn't outplay Jameis last season.
Lol, this is bringing up old memories from a few months ago. But Manziel did outplay Jameis though. Jameis had a more complete/better team. And if A&M and FSU were both undefeated last season, I honestly think Manziel might have got it again.
REally though, I'm glad Winston won and I thought it was much deserved. Honestly I do. But I also believe it was because he was the whole package, his team was undefeated, he went the championship game, he was absolutely amazing on the field every time out, etc...but if you're just a stats-junkie, MAnziel did in fact best Winston in a harder conference to boot :yes:
Johnny Manziel
· Total yards - 3924
· Passing yards - 3313
· Rushing yards - 611
· Total touchdowns - 39
· Passing touchdowns - 31
· Rushing touchdowns – 8
Jameis Winston
· Total yards - 3083
· Passing yards - 2938
· Rushing yards - 145
· Total touchdowns - 31
· Passing touchdowns - 28
· Rushing touchdowns - 3
![[Image: heisman-info3.jpg]](http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3717235/heisman-info3.jpg)
Quote:Ridiculous, people want to start putting Manziel and Cam in the same sentence.
Awww, come'on dude. Both kids played in the same conference/league and Johnny beat every record Cam ever put up.
He smashed Newton's SEC total yards record by nearly 800-yards in 2-less games.
![[Image: johnny-manziel-vs-cam-newton-heisman-570x427.jpeg]](http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/johnny-manziel-vs-cam-newton-heisman-570x427.jpeg)
I mean we can argue in circles, so lets agree to disagree. But the whole point of this thread and my final post before I go to sleep, is that stats, and what you did on the field does matter. Manziel has just completed arguably the 2-best years of any QB in SEC history. He deserves much more respect than he's getting IMO.
Quote:Lol, this is bringing up old memories from a few months ago. But Manziel did outplay Jameis though. Jameis had a more complete/better team. And if A&M and FSU were both undefeated last season, I honestly think Manziel might have got it again.
REally though, I'm glad Winston won and I thought it was much deserved. Honestly I do. But I also believe it was because he was the whole package, his team was undefeated, he went the championship game, he was absolutely amazing on the field every time out, etc...but if you're just a stats-junkie, MAnziel did in fact best Winston in a harder conference to boot :yes:
<div>Johnny Manziel
· Total yards - 3924
· Passing yards - 3313
· Rushing yards - 611
· Total touchdowns - 39
· Passing touchdowns - 31
· Rushing touchdowns – 8
Jameis Winston
· Total yards - 3083
· Passing yards - 2938
· Rushing yards - 145
· Total touchdowns - 31
· Passing touchdowns - 28
· Rushing touchdowns - 3
</div>
Winston also was playing in a pro style offense, you can just tag on an extra 100 yds passing and 10 passing tds
People really don't get how easy the spread offense is to run
Heck this youngin right here could probably run Sumlins O