Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

According to NFL.com's and former Dallas Cowboys Scout Gil Brandt, maybe.

They have a top ten most talented team list here.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...nted-teams

But at the very end of the article...

"Also Considered: Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, Miami Dolphins, Seattle Seahawks"

So piecing this together, according to Brandt, Jacksonville has a roster in the top 14 league wide in terms of talent.

I wonder where he would have ranked us before this offseason.

While it's entirely possible this team needed more experience, I think this shows just how bad the coaching has been.

The fact that the coaching was horrendous was shown long before this.

I think most have seen that there's plenty of talent here. It's pretty clear that talent was squandered previously. With the moves made this off season, both on the coaching staff and the roster, I'm hopeful that we see the talent on paper materialize on the field.

(06-09-2017, 01:15 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that the coaching was horrendous was shown long before this.

Well yeah, but this just provides additional confirmation last year it was coaching, not talent, that was the primary cause for the disastrous record.

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(06-09-2017, 01:40 PM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]I think most have seen that there's plenty of talent here. It's pretty clear that talent was squandered previously. With the moves made this off season, both on the coaching staff and the roster, I'm hopeful that we see the talent on paper materialize on the field.

If talent is the dominant factor in determining the outcome of games, and assuming Brandt is correct, then comparing Brandt's analysis to our schedule, we should go no worse than 12-4, because every team NOT listed there is presumably less talented than than those on the list. Of the teams on our schedule, Houston and Seattle seem to be rated comparably to us talent wise, while Pittsburgh is the one team on our schedule that is to be presumed demonstrably more talented than we are.

It literally all hinges of Bortles

(06-09-2017, 12:52 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]According to NFL.com's and former Dallas Cowboys Scout Gil Brandt, maybe.

They have a top ten most talented team list here.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...nted-teams

But at the very end of the article...

 "Also Considered:  Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, Miami Dolphins, Seattle Seahawks"

So piecing this together, according to Brandt, Jacksonville has a roster in the top 14 league wide in terms of talent.

I wonder where he would have ranked us before this offseason.

While it's entirely possible this team needed more experience, I think this shows just how bad the coaching has been.

Brandt has been pro-Jacksonville for the past couple of seasons as I recall, more from hearing him on SiriusXM NFL Radio than anything he may have put in print.  IIRC he had us as a surprise playoff team last offseason which wasn't that uncommon around the league.

There is nothing sadder than wasted potential.

(06-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 01:15 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that the coaching was horrendous was shown long before this.

Well yeah, but this just provides additional confirmation last year it was coaching, not talent, that was the primary cause for the disastrous record.

I didn't think you were on the "give Blake a pass for last year" bandwagon, but this comment suggests otherwise.  The talent at the QB position trumps the talent on the rest of the roster.  If Blake was mediocre last year we contend for the division and I find it pretty hard to believe he was coached to perform as poorly as he did last year.  Wasn't the same staff here the year before when he supposedly had his "great" season, as some call it, in 2015?  

The primary cause was Blake.  Sub-par coaching contributed sure, lack of turnovers on the defensive side contributed sure, lack of running game for most of the season contributed sure, but Blake's regression was the primary cause and I'm not sure how we can without a doubt pin that on coaching given the same staff was here the year before and there was clear evidence of progression on the defensive side of the ball in 2016 as well.

I think the talent was way better than the 3-13 record we got last year. Whether the talent is actually top 10, I'm not so sure. They have to proof it first.

(06-09-2017, 06:55 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Well yeah, but this just provides additional confirmation last year it was coaching, not talent, that was the primary cause for the disastrous record.

I didn't think you were on the "give Blake a pass for last year" bandwagon, but this comment suggests otherwise.  The talent at the QB position trumps the talent on the rest of the roster.  If Blake was mediocre last year we contend for the division and I find it pretty hard to believe he was coached to perform as poorly as he did last year.  Wasn't the same staff here the year before when he supposedly had his "great" season, as some call it, in 2015?  

The primary cause was Blake.  Sub-par coaching contributed sure, lack of turnovers on the defensive side contributed sure, lack of running game for most of the season contributed sure, but Blake's regression was the primary cause and I'm not sure how we can without a doubt pin that on coaching given the same staff was here the year before and there was clear evidence of progression on the defensive side of the ball in 2016 as well.

Actually I am not on the give Blake a pass for last year side.

Clearly he regressed, and his play contributed a great deal to the 3-13 record.

However, I think coaching contributed to Bortles' poor play, whether it was the decision to keep him from working on his mechanics with Tom House, or the other instances of poor coaching effecting the rest of the team that caused Bortles to press, or some other manifestation of poor coaching.

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(06-09-2017, 06:57 PM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]I think the talent was way better than the 3-13 record we got last year. Whether the talent is actually top 10, I'm not so sure. They have to proof it first.

Exactly.

I think this team, if properly coached, should have won more than three games, even with Bortles regression.

(06-09-2017, 06:55 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Well yeah, but this just provides additional confirmation last year it was coaching, not talent, that was the primary cause for the disastrous record.

I didn't think you were on the "give Blake a pass for last year" bandwagon, but this comment suggests otherwise.  The talent at the QB position trumps the talent on the rest of the roster.  If Blake was mediocre last year we contend for the division and I find it pretty hard to believe he was coached to perform as poorly as he did last year.  Wasn't the same staff here the year before when he supposedly had his "great" season, as some call it, in 2015?  

The primary cause was Blake.  Sub-par coaching contributed sure, lack of turnovers on the defensive side contributed sure, lack of running game for most of the season contributed sure, but Blake's regression was the primary cause and I'm not sure how we can without a doubt pin that on coaching given the same staff was here the year before and there was clear evidence of progression on the defensive side of the ball in 2016 as well.

I don't know that I've seen anyone on the message board give Bortles a pass, just that some people think he can be better than he was, and some that don't. However, I think the worst part of your post is that you seem to think that only Blake was to blame, when the texans got worse QB play and won 9 games and a playoffs game.

Bortles wasn't as good as he could have been, but he was not the disaster some people seem to think. He was just a part of the failing of the team. It didn't help that often when he played well enough to win the defense made up for it and let the other team come back. Same thing with special teams and fumbles. Ivory was a fumbling machine, and his fumbles killed momentum in multiple games.

The team was clearly talented, but never had a good game plan and always seemed to have major mental lapses last year. I attribute it all to coaching.

8-8 should be considered the floor for this season if Bortles is an average QB like he was last year. (and that's what he was last year, an average QB)

Plenty of talent. We need execution before they can be ranked highly. Off season rankings we always seem to lead.

(06-09-2017, 07:43 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Actually I am not on the give Blake a pass for last year side.

Clearly he regressed, and his play contributed a great deal to the 3-13 record.

However, I think coaching contributed to Bortles' poor play, whether it was the decision to keep him from working on his mechanics with Tom House, or the other instances of poor coaching effecting the rest of the team that caused Bortles to press, or some other manifestation of poor coaching.

I just don't know how you can put a greater share of the blame on coaching then.  How do you reconcile Blake's regression and the defense showing improvement and lay a majority of blame on coaching as a whole?  Are you of the mind that Blake's 2015 season wasn't as good as most here believe?  Are you of the mind that the defense didn't improve or improve significantly enough last year?

I think where the coaching, or lack thereof, was most evident was on special teams.  The gaffes there directly cost us games, much like the QB play did.  I would just like to see a more thoughful rationale behind saying the greatest share of blame goes to coaching besides a talking head opinion on team talent being better than average, especially since QB play largely determines success in the NFL.

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(06-09-2017, 08:21 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know that I've seen anyone on the message board give Bortles a pass, just that some people think he can be better than he was, and some that don't. However, I think the worst part of your post is that you seem to think that only Blake was to blame, when the texans got worse QB play and won 9 games and a playoffs game.

Bortles wasn't as good as he could have been, but he was not the disaster some people seem to think. He was just a part of the failing of the team. It didn't help that often when he played well enough to win the defense made up for it and let the other team come back. Same thing with special teams and fumbles. Ivory was a fumbling machine, and his fumbles killed momentum in multiple games.

The team was clearly talented, but never had a good game plan and always seemed to have major mental lapses last year. I attribute it all to coaching.

8-8 should be considered the floor for this season if Bortles is an average QB like he was last year. (and that's what he was last year, an average QB)

Ok then.

I still say the greatest share of the blame is whatever happened to Blake's arm. If Blake's 2015 arm is back and he's able to keep it healthy from here on, there's no reason to think this team cannot eventually win the SB. 

The rest of the blame, however, is on coaching for failing to provide for a running game on offense. I primarily blame Oley for being totally inept when it comes to running the ball, but I also blame Gus for not realizing as much until it was too late. I don't blame Ivory and Yeldon because the run scheme was no good. 

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(06-09-2017, 12:52 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So piecing this together, according to Brandt, Jacksonville has a roster in the top 14 league wide in terms of talent.

I like to hear this because I've been given a lot of grief for ranking the Jaguars so high on my current power ranking. But I feel if you honestly take into account just how much this team should have improved this offseason, the ranking is not as absurd as other NFL fans might think...

1. Patriots
2. Falcons
3. Steelers
4. Packers
5. Raiders
6. Seahawks
7. Cowboys
8. Bucs
9. Chiefs
10. Lions
11. Giants
12. Titans
13. Dolphins
14. Panthers
15. Cards
16. Broncos
17. Saints
18. Redskins
19. Jaguars
20. Ravens
21. Eagles
22. Colts
23. Vikings
24. Chargers
25. Texans
26. Bengals
27. Bills
28. 49ers
29. Bears
30. Jets
31. Browns
32. Rams

There's a lot of talk about what we look like on paper at the very least. I've seen it even in some of the Facebook groups that I am in like Sports Talk. It's pretty interesting. But, like most of them have pointed out which most fans already know on here.

It's all on Bortles. You can have the toughest, strongest and scariest looking destroyer or ship out to sea. But without a tough, strong and scary (in a good way, not a bad way) captain helming it. You're dead in the water. Bortles has to elevate this team.

Even if Fournette runs his [BLEEP] off this year during his rookie season. It doesn't guarantee this team anything. We might be slightly below or above .500 but that's pushing it just knowing how terrible we've been at protecting the football and the few leads we've ever had as a team the last four to six seasons.

We'll see.

(06-09-2017, 10:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

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(06-09-2017, 08:21 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know that I've seen anyone on the message board give Bortles a pass, just that some people think he can be better than he was, and some that don't. However, I think the worst part of your post is that you seem to think that only Blake was to blame, when the texans got worse QB play and won 9 games and a playoffs game.

Bortles wasn't as good as he could have been, but he was not the disaster some people seem to think. He was just a part of the failing of the team. It didn't help that often when he played well enough to win the defense made up for it and let the other team come back. Same thing with special teams and fumbles. Ivory was a fumbling machine, and his fumbles killed momentum in multiple games.

The team was clearly talented, but never had a good game plan and always seemed to have major mental lapses last year. I attribute it all to coaching.

8-8 should be considered the floor for this season if Bortles is an average QB like he was last year. (and that's what he was last year, an average QB)

Ok then.

If understanding that football is a team sport and that there was much more wrong with the team last season than just Blake playing like an average non franchise QB is giving him a pass then okay, anyone sane must be giving him a pass right now.

(06-09-2017, 10:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 07:43 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Actually I am not on the give Blake a pass for last year side.

Clearly he regressed, and his play contributed a great deal to the 3-13 record.

However, I think coaching contributed to Bortles' poor play, whether it was the decision to keep him from working on his mechanics with Tom House, or the other instances of poor coaching effecting the rest of the team that caused Bortles to press, or some other manifestation of poor coaching.

I just don't know how you can put a greater share of the blame on coaching then.  How do you reconcile Blake's regression and the defense showing improvement and lay a majority of blame on coaching as a whole?  Are you of the mind that Blake's 2015 season wasn't as good as most here believe?  Are you of the mind that the defense didn't improve or improve significantly enough last year?

I think where the coaching, or lack thereof, was most evident was on special teams.  The gaffes there directly cost us games, much like the QB play did.  I would just like to see a more thoughful rationale behind saying the greatest share of blame goes to coaching besides a talking head opinion on team talent being better than average, especially since QB play largely determines success in the NFL.

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As to your question, I believe the defense showed improvement despite the coaching because there was a great infusion of talent. Last offseason, the team added Malik Jackson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack (though inexplicably the team didn't play him much), Yannick Ngakoue, Abry Jones developed, Fowler returned, and we managed to get a decent year out of Cyprien. Sometimes a team or part of a team can perform well despite not good coaching (see 90's Eagles under Kotite, 1994-95 Cowboys under Switzer). Consider also the sentiments by Ramsey and others once Bradley was fired about the players not being utilized to their talents. I think given that infusion of talent, improvement on that side of the ball was inevitable, much like there was improvement in the offense after the 2014 draft.

I agree with you that special teams cost us at least 3 games last year, and several games over the course of Bradley's unfortunate tenure.

Ultimately, the negative impact of bad coaching will be much lower than it has been in years past. All three phases of the game should see improvement this year and in the years to come.

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(06-10-2017, 01:53 AM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]I still say the greatest share of the blame is whatever happened to Blake's arm. If Blake's 2015 arm is back and he's able to keep it healthy from here on, there's no reason to think this team cannot eventually win the SB. 

The rest of the blame, however, is on coaching for failing to provide for a running game on offense. I primarily blame Oley for being totally inept when it comes to running the ball, but I also blame Gus for not realizing as much until it was too late. I don't blame Ivory and Yeldon because the run scheme was no good. 

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(06-09-2017, 12:52 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So piecing this together, according to Brandt, Jacksonville has a roster in the top 14 league wide in terms of talent.

I like to hear this because I've been given a lot of grief for ranking the Jaguars so high on my current power ranking. But I feel if you honestly take into account just how much this team should have improved this offseason, the ranking is not as absurd as other NFL fans might think...

1. Patriots
2. Falcons
3. Steelers
4. Packers
5. Raiders
6. Seahawks
7. Cowboys
8. Bucs
9. Chiefs
10. Lions
11. Giants
12. Titans
13. Dolphins
14. Panthers
15. Cards
16. Broncos
17. Saints
18. Redskins
19. Jaguars
20. Ravens
21. Eagles
22. Colts
23. Vikings
24. Chargers
25. Texans
26. Bengals
27. Bills
28. 49ers
29. Bears
30. Jets
31. Browns
32. Rams

I saw your rankings and noticed something interesting.

Many people maintain ultimate team success boils down to the QB and talent should be considered and weighted accordingly.

But then I look at the teams listed below the Jaguars in your rankings above.  There are several teams nearly above and below the Jaguars that seemingly have better QB situations than we do.

The Saints have Drew Brees, Skins have Cousins, Ravens have Flacco, Eagles have Wentz, Colts have Luck, Bolts have Rivers and Bengals have Dalton.  Most, if not all of these guys would be presumed by most observers to be better than Bortles.

Do you think the Jaguars will have a better record than these teams?  If these other teams listed show them with better QBs than Bortles, does the Jaguars rankings above these teams indicate favorably disparate talent at every other position for the Jaguars?

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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/which-...also-rans/

(06-10-2017, 07:05 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 10:05 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]I just don't know how you can put a greater share of the blame on coaching then.  How do you reconcile Blake's regression and the defense showing improvement and lay a majority of blame on coaching as a whole?  Are you of the mind that Blake's 2015 season wasn't as good as most here believe?  Are you of the mind that the defense didn't improve or improve significantly enough last year?

I think where the coaching, or lack thereof, was most evident was on special teams.  The gaffes there directly cost us games, much like the QB play did.  I would just like to see a more thoughful rationale behind saying the greatest share of blame goes to coaching besides a talking head opinion on team talent being better than average, especially since QB play largely determines success in the NFL.

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As to your question, I believe the defense showed improvement despite the coaching because there was a great infusion of talent.  Last offseason, the team added Malik Jackson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack (though inexplicably the team didn't play him much), Yannick Ngakoue, Abry Jones developed, Fowler returned, and we managed to get a decent year out of Cyprien.  Sometimes a team or part of a team can perform well despite not good coaching (see 90's Eagles under Kotite, 1994-95 Cowboys under Switzer).  Consider also the sentiments by Ramsey and others once Bradley was fired about the players not being utilized to their talents.    I think given that infusion of talent, improvement on that side of the ball was inevitable, much like there was improvement in the offense after the 2014 draft.

I agree with you that special teams cost us at least 3 games last year, and several games over the course of Bradley's unfortunate tenure.

Ultimately, the negative impact of bad coaching will be much lower than it has been in years past.  All three phases of the game should see improvement this year and in the years to come.

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(06-10-2017, 01:53 AM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]I still say the greatest share of the blame is whatever happened to Blake's arm. If Blake's 2015 arm is back and he's able to keep it healthy from here on, there's no reason to think this team cannot eventually win the SB. 

The rest of the blame, however, is on coaching for failing to provide for a running game on offense. I primarily blame Oley for being totally inept when it comes to running the ball, but I also blame Gus for not realizing as much until it was too late. I don't blame Ivory and Yeldon because the run scheme was no good. 

---

I like to hear this because I've been given a lot of grief for ranking the Jaguars so high on my current power ranking. But I feel if you honestly take into account just how much this team should have improved this offseason, the ranking is not as absurd as other NFL fans might think...

1. Patriots
2. Falcons
3. Steelers
4. Packers
5. Raiders
6. Seahawks
7. Cowboys
8. Bucs
9. Chiefs
10. Lions
11. Giants
12. Titans
13. Dolphins
14. Panthers
15. Cards
16. Broncos
17. Saints
18. Redskins
19. Jaguars
20. Ravens
21. Eagles
22. Colts
23. Vikings
24. Chargers
25. Texans
26. Bengals
27. Bills
28. 49ers
29. Bears
30. Jets
31. Browns
32. Rams

I saw your rankings and noticed something interesting.

Many people maintain ultimate team success boils down to the QB and talent should be considered and weighted accordingly.

But then I look at the teams listed below the Jaguars in your rankings above.  There are several teams nearly above and below the Jaguars that seemingly have better QB situations than we do.

The Saints have Drew Brees, Skins have Cousins, Ravens have Flacco, Eagles have Wentz, Colts have Luck, Bolts have Rivers and Bengals have Dalton.  Most, if not all of these guys would be presumed by most observers to be better than Bortles.

Do you think the Jaguars will have a better record than these teams?  If these other teams listed show them with better QBs than Bortles, does the Jaguars rankings above these teams indicate favorably disparate talent at every other position for the Jaguars?

---

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/which-...also-rans/

The obvious response is that the Jags would be ranked much higher with any of those QBs.

I'm not as down on Bortles as some people here. Whatever one wants to complain about him, he shattered the team record for TD passes in 2015. Brunell never had more than 20 even with Smith and McCardell. A player can be as good as his highlights, it's just a matter of consistency.

About your prior response on defense, getting rid of Babich was a big plus along with the players you mentioned (and Amukamara). I'm not sold on Wash, and I really wish the team had gotten rid of more of Bradley's crony coaching group. 

At least the change in culture should prevent the existing players from going into cruise control mode like they did under Bradley.

(06-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2017, 01:15 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that the coaching was horrendous was shown long before this.

Well yeah, but this just provides additional confirmation last year it was coaching, not talent, that was the primary cause for the disastrous record.

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(06-09-2017, 01:40 PM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]I think most have seen that there's plenty of talent here. It's pretty clear that talent was squandered previously. With the moves made this off season, both on the coaching staff and the roster, I'm hopeful that we see the talent on paper materialize on the field.

If talent is the dominant factor in determining the outcome of games, and assuming Brandt is correct, then comparing Brandt's analysis to our schedule, we should go no worse than 12-4, because every team NOT listed there is presumably less talented than than those on the list. Of the teams on our schedule, Houston and Seattle seem to be rated comparably to us talent wise, while Pittsburgh is the one team on our schedule that is to be presumed demonstrably more talented than we are.

12-4 would be a stretch, but 8-8 or 9-7 isn't unrealistic, and in this division, that could get you into the post season.

This was my chief complaint last sesaon (and late 2015 as well) nearly every week.

"Enough talent to win some games, but they go out there week after week and shoot themselves in the foot with sloppy, undisciplined play."

With the additions made to this defense in 2017, one could honestly and objectively say that almost every single starter on this defense would not only start for another team in the league, many of them could take the jobs of their counterparts on some teams with .500 or better records.

Ramsey
Telvin
Bouye
Church
Campbell
Jackson
Ngakoue
Jack
Even Pozluszny

All of these guys would either start or play a high number of snaps on a lot of teams around the league.
We couldn't say that about our defensive roster two years ago.