When was the Jaguars last turning point game? I think a lot of people would point to the Patriots playoffs loss of 2007 season, but the Jaguars still played some quality football after that. No I'd say the real turning point game was in 2010 when the Jaguars went to Indianapolis at 8-5 to face a limping 7-6 colts team that looked like it was ready to say goodnight.
Instead David Garrard showed once and for all he was never a franchise level QB, Peyton showed that we were his [BLEEP] even when his health was suffering, and the Jaguars never recovered after the loss, losing their last three games of the season and failing to ever seriously challenge for the division title, or even a winning record, since then.
The Jaguars are still the only AFCS team to never win the division, and 2010 should have been the year they did it. Since that day it's been all downhill on the field for this franchise.
The last turning point game was the Chargers game last year. Even after the Packers game we were still on the hype train and then that game happened and everything started coming down again in the usual fashion.
I look at it from a different perspective. Instead of specific turning points I just see really bad drafting in every single year from 2008-2013. That's six consecutive years of bad drafting.
Secondly - while it definitely takes time to overcome the damage done by that ^ there were other contributors. The biggest were the decisions by Khan and Caldwell to hire Bradley and then to keep him (at least) a year too long.
Caldwell's over-eagerness to gut the roster and "go young" cost the team a bit as well, but it was a much lesser sin than those Gene drafts, Caldwell's first draft and the Bradley hire.
(07-09-2017, 09:51 AM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]The last turning point game was the Chargers game last year. Even after the Packers game we were still on the hype train and then that game happened and everything started coming down again in the usual fashion.
I'm not sure it can be called a turning point because there was no change around it, the week before the chargers they lost, which has been what they've been doing since 2010. Before the game against the colts at the end of 2010 the Jaguars were a team in contention, even if in 2008 and 2009 they had losing records, in 2010 the curbstomp was delivered to the Jaguars and they were put out of contention at least through 2016. If the Jaguars do well this season and moving forward then maybe we can look at the 2016 titans game as another true turning point, when the direction of the franchise was righted.
(07-09-2017, 10:13 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I look at it from a different perspective. Instead of specific turning points I just see really bad drafting in every single year from 2008-2013. That's six consecutive years of bad drafting.
Secondly - while it definitely takes time to overcome the damage done by that ^ there were other contributors. The biggest one was the decisions by Khan and Caldwell to hire Bradley and then to keep him (at least) a year too long.
Caldwell's over eagerness to gut the roster and "go young" cost the team as well, but it was a much lesser sin than those Gene drafts, Caldwell's first draft and the Bradley hire.
I agree with everything you have to say here. I just was talking about the point at which we could clearly see the Jaguars were not going to be competing anymore, and since then they've failed to even compete for something as pitiful as possibly the weakest division in the NFL over that timespan.
(07-09-2017, 09:51 AM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]The last turning point game was the Chargers game last year. Even after the Packers game we were still on the hype train and then that game happened and everything started coming down again in the usual fashion.
Nah, we were still doing fine after that game. I would say it was the Raiders game this past year when became obvious that Bortles arm was whack, and some of the players started to quite as a result. ...or perhaps not even that game as everyone knew we would be beat, but the following week getting pounded by the Titans really did them in.
Drafting Leftwich and shafting Brunell. That started it all.
(07-09-2017, 10:46 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2017, 10:13 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I look at it from a different perspective. Instead of specific turning points I just see really bad drafting in every single year from 2008-2013. That's six consecutive years of bad drafting.
Secondly - while it definitely takes time to overcome the damage done by that ^ there were other contributors. The biggest one was the decisions by Khan and Caldwell to hire Bradley and then to keep him (at least) a year too long.
Caldwell's over eagerness to gut the roster and "go young" cost the team as well, but it was a much lesser sin than those Gene drafts, Caldwell's first draft and the Bradley hire.
I agree with everything you have to say here. I just was talking about the point at which we could clearly see the Jaguars were not going to be competing anymore, and since then they've failed to even compete for something as pitiful as possibly the weakest division in the NFL over that timespan.
Gotcha. I'm sure any number of folks may pick a number of different specific moments, but the one you've isolated makes sense. I suppose I'm just (for some reason) inclined to point to a wide swath of bad decisions over a period of time than a certain spot on the calendar when the bed decisions really culminated in an obvious moment.
The day Gus Bradley was hired.
When we turned out back on Mark Brunell and drafted Leftwich.
Also you could say when we traded up to draft Harvey. Or when we list 2 offensive lineman before week 1 of the 2008 season.
(07-09-2017, 09:51 AM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]The last turning point game was the Chargers game last year. Even after the Packers game we were still on the hype train and then that game happened and everything started coming down again in the usual fashion.
I agree with this. I got to see this one up close and personal last year, and after spending all that money just to get to the game, I left shortly before halftime. That's not something I normally do (I sat through the entire 41-3 embarrassment in Seattle in 09). The team, for the first time, showed me they had no business being on the field. I knew the season was over after that.
The turning point was after the 2010 season, specicifically the switch from Garrard to Gabbert.
We have not had legitimately good QB play since then. (The 2015 season ws Bortles throwing for 300+ yards when we were down 21 points.). And that's the main reason 2011-2016 has been such an awful stretch of football.
(07-10-2017, 05:55 AM)TealHammer Wrote: [ -> ]The turning point was after the 2010 season, specicifically the switch from Garrard to Gabbert.
We have not had legitimately good QB play since then. (The 2015 season ws Bortles throwing for 300+ yards when we were down 21 points.). And that's the main reason 2011-2016 has been such an awful stretch of football.
How many games where bortles threw for 300 yds when down by 21 pts? If it didn't happen often then stop downgrading blake bortles year because statistically blake bortles 2015 year was better than anything garrard has done. Please save me the garrard won games arguments because he had a better team and structure coaching wise around him at the time and they won alot of games despite of him not because he put the team on his back and won games. To future make my point think of how many people on Garrards coaching staff have been or currently are head coaches. Del Rio, Koetter, Lynn, and Mike Smith. Blake on the other hand coaching staff during his tenure as a starter were Gus Bradley Homeboys so you all figure it out. lol.
(07-09-2017, 01:19 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Drafting Leftwich and shafting Brunell. That started it all.
This. We were already struggling at this point, but it seems like this was one of the events that marked when we actually started circling the drain. The years of bad drafting by Gene Smith, and hanging onto Gus Bradley too long simply dug the hole deeper.
Turning point game for me was when Jack Del Rio in 2005 decided it was a smart idea to start Leftwich over Garrard with a boot on his foot in the biggest game of the year against New England in the snow.
For me, that's when the politics of the front office reared it's ugly head. And as a fan. I was sick to my stomach. Brunell was traded too soon. He proved that by being the only QB since Cousins or RGIII's rookie year to lead the Redskins to a play-off appearance.
To make matters worse. They never gave Garrard a fair shake to develop as the starter and opted to draft Leftwich. That was costly to be sure. But the true downward spiral for me started with that 2005 QB decision in the biggest game the franchise had faced in years.
(07-10-2017, 07:31 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2017, 05:55 AM)TealHammer Wrote: [ -> ]The turning point was after the 2010 season, specicifically the switch from Garrard to Gabbert.
We have not had legitimately good QB play since then. (The 2015 season ws Bortles throwing for 300+ yards when we were down 21 points.). And that's the main reason 2011-2016 has been such an awful stretch of football.
How many games where bortles threw for 300 yds when down by 21 pts? If it didn't happen often then stop downgrading blake bortles year because statistically blake bortles 2015 year was better than anything garrard has done. Please save me the garrard won games arguments because he had a better team and structure coaching wise around him at the time and they won alot of games despite of him not because he put the team on his back and won games. To future make my point think of how many people on Garrards coaching staff have been or currently are head coaches. Del Rio, Koetter, Lynn, and Mike Smith. Blake on the other hand coaching staff during his tenure as a starter were Gus Bradley Homeboys so you all figure it out. lol.
You're over looking the one statistic that really counts when comparing Bortles to Garrard; we
won more games with Garrard than we ever have with Bortles! Sorry, but imho much of Bortles 2015 'statistical success' was a result of 'garbage time' plays and the fact that at that time both of the Allens were 'off the radar' as far as the opposition was concerned; result... they didn't draw the coverage that they have since then. Bortles stats in 2015 looks like a fluke... until Bortles shows us it wasn't.
(07-09-2017, 12:41 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2017, 09:51 AM)DragonFury Wrote: [ -> ]The last turning point game was the Chargers game last year. Even after the Packers game we were still on the hype train and then that game happened and everything started coming down again in the usual fashion.
Nah, we were still doing fine after that game. I would say it was the Raiders game this past year when became obvious that Bortles arm was whack, and some of the players started to quite as a result. ...or perhaps not even that game as everyone knew we would be beat, but the following week getting pounded by the Titans really did them in.
The Raiders game exposed us as a soft team. They ran right through us.
I kind of see a long slow decline. Coughlin was probably a better GM than Shaq Harris. Harris was a better GM than Gene Smith. Then Caldwell decided to gut the roster and go extremely young. All this happened over about 15 years.
The Derek Harvey trade up was the beginning of years of terrible draft picks. At that time, we just came off of a playoff win vs the Steelers and were on the rise (e.g. 1 player away). They subsequently went on to win 2 super bowls and we accidentally tanked and cumulatively became the worst team in the NFL over the past 5 years.
Another turning point is passing on Suggs to select Leftwich. Had we taken Suggs, the following year we may have selected Rothlisberger who was still on the board when we selected Planet Reggie Williams. As a result, instead of having Big Ben and Terrell Suggs, we ended up with Leftwich and Planet Reggie.
(07-10-2017, 10:16 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]The Derek Harvey trade up was the beginning of years of terrible draft picks. At that time, we just came off of a playoff win vs the Steelers and were on the rise (e.g. 1 player away). They subsequently went on to win 2 super bowls and we accidentally tanked and cumulatively became the worst team in the NFL over the past 5 years.
Another turning point is passing on Suggs to select Leftwich. Had we taken Suggs, the following year we may have selected Rothlisberger who was still on the board when we selected Planet Reggie Williams. As a result, instead of having Big Ben and Terrell Suggs, we ended up with Leftwich and Planet Reggie.
There were years of bad first round drafting before that.
2003, Leftwich
2004, Reggie Williams
2005, Mattloaf
2006, Marcedes
2007, Reggie Nelson
2008, Harvey
2009, Monroe
2010, Alualu
2011, Gabbert
2012, Blackmon
2013, Joke-el
2014, Bortles
2015, Foul-er
2016, Lord Ramsey
2017, Fournette
Out of those 15 selections probably 3-4 of them were actually good enough to be selected first round, not including Fournette since we don't know yet. Nelson, Monroe, and Ramsey are it, and out of those three only Ramsey is an obvious pro bowl level guy.
That's horrifically bad drafting, especially considering the needs that were passed over in many of those years that turned out to be incredible players.
Suggs, Big Ben, Rodgers in just the 2003-2005 drafts all could have been Jaguars.
I still remember listening to Jaguars radio during the 2004 draft when Big Ben fell to the Jaguars and Vic was imploring the team to take him, even if it was just to make the teams behind them take their holding them hostage for picks seriously.
Instead Shack Harris showed he was just a little punk without any guts.
(07-10-2017, 11:37 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2017, 10:16 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]The Derek Harvey trade up was the beginning of years of terrible draft picks. At that time, we just came off of a playoff win vs the Steelers and were on the rise (e.g. 1 player away). They subsequently went on to win 2 super bowls and we accidentally tanked and cumulatively became the worst team in the NFL over the past 5 years.
Another turning point is passing on Suggs to select Leftwich. Had we taken Suggs, the following year we may have selected Rothlisberger who was still on the board when we selected Planet Reggie Williams. As a result, instead of having Big Ben and Terrell Suggs, we ended up with Leftwich and Planet Reggie.
There were years of bad first round drafting before that.
2003, Leftwich
2004, Reggie Williams
2005, Mattloaf
2006, Marcedes
2007, Reggie Nelson
2008, Harvey
2009, Monroe
2010, Alualu
2011, Gabbert
2012, Blackmon
2013, Joke-el
2014, Bortles
2015, Foul-er
2016, Lord Ramsey
2017, Fournette
Out of those 15 selections probably 3-4 of them were actually good enough to be selected first round, not including Fournette since we don't know yet. Nelson, Monroe, and Ramsey are it, and out of those three only Ramsey is an obvious pro bowl level guy.
That's horrifically bad drafting, especially considering the needs that were passed over in many of those years that turned out to be incredible players.
Suggs, Big Ben, Rodgers in just the 2003-2005 drafts all could have been Jaguars.
I still remember listening to Jaguars radio during the 2004 draft when Big Ben fell to the Jaguars and Vic was imploring the team to take him, even if it was just to make the teams behind them take their holding them hostage for picks seriously.
Instead Shack Harris showed he was just a little punk without any guts.
Yep, but we were able to sustain reasonable success prior to the Harvey Draft because our Round 2 picks were pretty decent (Rasheen, Daryl Smith, MJD). The Harvey draft and all of the subsequent drafts (2008 -2012) under Shack and Gene Smith sucked.
2008 Draft
Harvey
Q Groves
Thomas Williams
Tre Williams
Chauncey Washington
....... BUT WOW ..... if you look at the post-Tom Coughlin drafts .... they pretty much sucked with only a few pro bowl appearances from those selected by Shack & Gene
TC's downfall was the huge contracts to Brunell & Boselli which Shack dumped and appeared to be headed on the right Cap-responsible path.
(07-10-2017, 12:01 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (07-10-2017, 11:37 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]There were years of bad first round drafting before that.
2003, Leftwich
2004, Reggie Williams
2005, Mattloaf
2006, Marcedes
2007, Reggie Nelson
2008, Harvey
2009, Monroe
2010, Alualu
2011, Gabbert
2012, Blackmon
2013, Joke-el
2014, Bortles
2015, Foul-er
2016, Lord Ramsey
2017, Fournette
Out of those 15 selections probably 3-4 of them were actually good enough to be selected first round, not including Fournette since we don't know yet. Nelson, Monroe, and Ramsey are it, and out of those three only Ramsey is an obvious pro bowl level guy.
That's horrifically bad drafting, especially considering the needs that were passed over in many of those years that turned out to be incredible players.
Suggs, Big Ben, Rodgers in just the 2003-2005 drafts all could have been Jaguars.
I still remember listening to Jaguars radio during the 2004 draft when Big Ben fell to the Jaguars and Vic was imploring the team to take him, even if it was just to make the teams behind them take their holding them hostage for picks seriously.
Instead Shack Harris showed he was just a little punk without any guts.
Yep, but we were able to sustain reasonable success prior to the Harvey Draft because our Round 2 picks were pretty decent (Rasheen, Daryl Smith, MJD). The Harvey draft and all of the subsequent drafts (2008 -2012) under Shack and Gene Smith sucked.
2008 Draft
Harvey
Q Groves
Thomas Williams
Tre Williams
Chauncey Washington
....... BUT WOW ..... if you look at the post-Tom Coughlin drafts .... they pretty much sucked with only a few pro bowl appearances from those selected by Shack & Gene
TC's downfall was the huge contracts to Brunell & Boselli which Shack dumped and appeared to be headed on the right Cap-responsible path.
I don't think it was the second rounders that carried the team so much as what was left from Coughlin's time with the team. How good is the team in the 2005-2007 time frame without Freddy T, Jimmy Smith, Big Hen, Stroud, and Meester, to name a few (Even Garrard?). To be fair Rasheen, MJD, and Daryl Smith were very good players, but without the core of guys on the team I don't think they could have done anything but struggled to get the team to .500.