Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Opinions can change when the facts change. The facts have changed just a bit since this thread was started.

(08-18-2017, 08:41 AM)BklynJag Wrote: [ -> ]What if I told you, bringing back everyone but the HC from team that's won 11 games in 3 years, wouldnt actually solve anything?

I'd say you were a know nothing buffoon.

(03-27-2018, 12:19 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Opinions can change when the facts change.  The facts have changed just a bit since this thread was started.

Yeah - but lots of folks were claiming that "Caldwell didn't assemble any real talent" as a fact. 

That was clearly false. Caldwell did assemble quite a lot of talented players prior to 2017. Many were unable to see that. All that has changed in that regard is opinion. Not fact.

(03-27-2018, 12:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 12:19 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Opinions can change when the facts change.  The facts have changed just a bit since this thread was started.

Yeah - but lots of folks were claiming that "Caldwell didn't assemble any real talent" as a fact. 

That was clearly false. Caldwell did assemble quite a lot of talented players prior to 2017. Many were unable to see that. All that has changed in that regard is opinion. Not fact.

I would say one thing changed to shape the opinions:  The Jaguars finally produced a winning season.

But yeah, lots of people incorrectly assumed that because the team wasn't winning, Caldwell had not accumulated any talent.

Easy to make that assumption, though.

Haha, bunch of morons in this thread.

(03-27-2018, 12:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 12:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah - but lots of folks were claiming that "Caldwell didn't assemble any real talent" as a fact. 

That was clearly false. Caldwell did assemble quite a lot of talented players prior to 2017. Many were unable to see that. All that has changed in that regard is opinion. Not fact.

I would say one thing changed to shape the opinions:  The Jaguars finally produced a winning season.

But yeah, lots of people incorrectly assumed that because the team wasn't winning, Caldwell had not accumulated any talent.

Easy to make that assumption, though.

Looking at a thread like this brings up the term compression.  Basically it goes like this...  man those people 50 years ago were really dumb how could they have not seen XYZ.  That is compression of the events that caused XYZ to happen is never viewed.  This seems to be a preseason thread after Bortles was bombing out.

It happens.

"Caldwell done" - well, this is awkward.

I didn’t comment on this thread last year, but I can completely understand why people were unhappy at the start of last season. I was concerned too.

And while it’s great to look back with hindsight and say 2017 has vindicated Caldwell, I worry the same questions will resurface if we struggle to repeat the success of last season (not impossible).

I think that despite some early misses, he’s generally done a good job, but you know moves this off season like ARob, Colvin and Bortles will be put on his shoulders if things don’t go to plan.

So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

Tom probably had a big influence on all the players before he got here too.

Edit: Coughlin said Caldwell's managing of the cap early in Caldwell's time with the team enabled last off-season's aggressive game-plan.

"You can't make the kind of moves you want to make unless you do have cap room," Coughlin said. "That was very attractive to me and Dave knew it was time for us to go - and as I said, we rolled our sleeves up. There weren't any deep philosophical chats about that either. Let's go get the players that can help us win."

- that's taken from the jaguars.com article, sounds like coughlin and Dave work well together and that coughlin respects DC and his work. Also coughlin giving credit to DC for their ability to get things done....weird. GM Jr just got a gold star.

(03-27-2018, 12:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 12:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah - but lots of folks were claiming that "Caldwell didn't assemble any real talent" as a fact. 

That was clearly false. Caldwell did assemble quite a lot of talented players prior to 2017. Many were unable to see that. All that has changed in that regard is opinion. Not fact.

I would say one thing changed to shape the opinions:  The Jaguars finally produced a winning season.

But yeah, lots of people incorrectly assumed that because the team wasn't winning, Caldwell had not accumulated any talent.

Easy to make that assumption, though.

Id argue the results changed. Prior to last year all that talent on the defensive line was just hopes and dreams we finally saw some payoff. If you saw it coming good for you but most sure didn't. Prior to this year Fowler was struggling to get on the field. Yanick hadn't turned into something special and Jack was wiffing on easy wrap up tackles. The offense was a hot mess and high draft picks where in question. It's not just opinions that have changed it's the results that have changed opinions.

(08-18-2017, 12:48 AM)Banatha Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-18-2017, 12:35 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that he was demoted the minute Tom Coughlin was hired but now he should just be off the team.  The guy is trash.  

How do you have 4 top 5 picks and an open checkbook and build the trash we saw tonight?

What has Coughlin done? Not much, its the same exact team as last year. Tom didn't recognize Blake was toast. Tom didn't fix the line with all his experience and connections. Dave/Tom/Marrone it's a collection of misfits guiding misfits. Jacksonville=Washington Generals, paid to be canon fodder for the good teams. We are the warm climate retirement home where all NFL players and coaches come to die. The elephant graveyard of the league. The culture is bad, the franchise is bad. This does not take nostradamus, this is reality looking at the last decade and the state of the team today.

huh??? what are you doing?

Banatha proving again why he his a top 5 idiot on this board.

You can have a talent on a team but a craptastic coach and guess what's going to happen? A crappy team.

(03-27-2018, 06:44 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 12:42 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I would say one thing changed to shape the opinions:  The Jaguars finally produced a winning season.

But yeah, lots of people incorrectly assumed that because the team wasn't winning, Caldwell had not accumulated any talent.

Easy to make that assumption, though.

Id argue the results changed. Prior to last year all that talent on the defensive line was just hopes and dreams we finally saw some payoff. If you saw it coming good for you but most sure didn't. Prior to this year Fowler was struggling to get on the field. Yanick hadn't turned into something special and Jack was wiffing on easy wrap up tackles. The offense was a hot mess and high draft picks where in question. It's not just opinions that have changed it's the results that have changed opinions.

I know we didn't get the wins, but as far as young players showing potential, there was plenty of evidence the players could do well in the league.

Yes, Fowler was pretty much up in the air after tearing his ACL not 30 minutes into his first mini camp.  He got on the field in 2016, but it was basically his rookie year, plus he was recovering from his ACL.  You have a point with him.

But Ngakoue recorded 8 sacks and 4 forced fumbles his rookie year, breaking the Jaguars record for rookie sacks, previously held by Tony Brackens.  Gene Smith didn't draft anyone who came close to 8 sacks, rookie or otherwise.  Jalen Ramsey was every bit of a stud his rookie year.  Again, Gene Smith didn't draft anyone close to his caliber.  Jack didn't get much PT his first year, but there are plenty who question the wisdom behind keeping him on the bench all that time.  Prior to last year, Telvin Smith won two AFC defensive player of the week awards and showed big play capability, which again surpassed anyone drafted by Gene Smith.  There was plenty of evidence Caldwell picked good defensive players.

There was also some evidence that Caldwell could identify offensive talent.  In 2015 Bortles broke all kinds of single season passing records for the Jaguars.  Say what you will about his numbers coming in garbage time, but I'm not buying that.  Gabbert played in as much garbage time as Bortles, but didn't come close to putting up those kind of numbers.  The Jaguars went some NINE (9) seasons without having a 1000 yard WR until Caldwell added Robinson and Hurns to the roster in 2014.  Yeah, Smith correctly identified Blackmon as a talent.  Unfortunately, he underestimated the depth of Blackmon's off field issues.  Caldwell also added a stud interior OL in Brandon Linder.  Marqise Lee also flashed big play capability.

In the years prior to 2017, did the Jaguars come anywhere close to the W-L results we saw last year?  Not at all.  However, there was evidence  that this team was assembling a strong nucleus of talent on both sides of the ball capable of turning the team's fortunes around.

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

It's nice to see the mental gymnastics some people will go through to try to demonstrate they weren't actually completely wrong.

(08-20-2017, 05:00 PM)WYBaugh Wrote: [ -> ]This from another forum and not my post.  Sobering though:

Quote:Dave Caldwell needs to be fired asap. They brought him in and he hired Gus Bradley, tore the team down and said they were going to rebuild it the right way through the draft. 

2013
Luke Joekle - gone
Johnathan Cyprian - gone
Dwayne Gratz - gone
Ace Sanders - gone
Denard Robinson - gone
Josh Evans - gone
Jeremy Harris - gone
Demetrius McCray - one

2014
Blake Bortles - soon to be bust
Marquis Lee - injured more than he plays
Allen Robinson - good receiver (not great) 
Brandon Lindor - injured more than he plays 
Aaron Colvin - injured more than he plays 
Telvin Smith - Good player 
Chris Smith - gone
Luke Bawanko - just a guy
Storm Johnson - gone

2015
Dante Fowler - so far a bust
TJ Yeldon - 4th string back
AJ Cann - just a guy
James Sample - gone
Rashaad Green - soon to be cut
Michael Bennett - just a guy
Neal Sterling - never heard of him
Ben Koyack - never heard of him

2016
Jalen Ramsey - good player
Myles Jack - we'll see 
Yannick Ngakoue - good player
Sheldon Day - just a guy
Tyrone Holmes - gone
Brandon Allen - 3rd string QB
Johnathan Woodard - never heard of him

2017
Leonard Fournette - should be good if healthy
Cam Robinson - starter by default. We'll see. 
Dwayne Smoot - ? 
Dede Westbrook - will take Rashad Greens 4th string WR spot
Blair Brown - ? Never heard of him
Jalen Myrick - ? Never heard of him 
Marquez Williams - ? Never heard of him 

So in 5 drafts he got about 5 good players that start. That's building through the draft.

Can we please revisit this particular post?

For brevity's sake, I'll concede 2013 as a lost year.

2014.

Blake Bortles - soon to be bust Quarterbacked team to AFC Championship game.  Won respect from teammates.  Earned second contract
Marquis Lee - injured more than he plays Earned second contract
Allen Robinson - good receiver (not great) -signed lucrative free agent deal with Chicago.  many Jaguars fans sad to see him go
Brandon Linder - injured more than he plays -A stud C on his second contract.
Aaron Colvin - injured more than he plays   Missed part of his rookie year due to the ACL torn at senior bowl.  Wound up nickel CB on top 5 defense 2 years in a row.  Signed lucrative FA deal with Houston.
Telvin Smith - Good player -  Pro Bowl player and leader on defense
Chris Smith - gone;  traded for by the Bengals.  Eventually signed FA deal with Cleveland.
Luke Bowanko - just a guy   Traded for by Ravens
Storm Johnson - gone-7th round pick.  What do you expect?!?


2015
Dante Fowler - so far a bust Counting playoffs, had double digit sacks and a TD (should have been 2) as a part time player
TJ Yeldon - 4th string back  Second string back who put in good carries when Fournette was out.
AJ Cann - just a guy


2016
Jalen Ramsey - good player  First team All Pro and Pro Bowler, widely acknowledged as the top CB in football
Myles Jack - we'll see Played at Pro Bowl level by end of last year.  Made two of the biggest plays in the playoffs, one of which would have catapulted team to the Super Bowl if called correctly by officials.
Yannick Ngakoue - good player  Pro Bowl DE who notched double digit sacks and forced several fumbles.

2017
Leonard Fournette - should be good if healthy-Rushed for 1000 yards playing in only 13 games behind substandard guards with 8 & 9 men in the box
Cam Robinson - starter by default. We'll see. Played best LT for the team since Boselli on an OL that gave up one of the lowest sack totals in team history.
Dwayne Smoot - ? A decent rotational DE who hustles
Dede Westbrook - will take Rashad Greens 4th string WR spot Played very well in half a season's worth of work.  May be starter in 2018
Blair Brown - ? Never heard of him  May be starter in 2018

That's one truly great player-Ramsey
Several really good players-T. Smith, Linder, Ngakoue, Jack, Fournette, C. Robinson, A. Robinson, Fowler
Several other good players-Lee, Westbrook, Colvin

All played in the AFC Championship game within 5 years.

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

You CAN give him credit.  You just WON'T.

TC did not bring in Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Fowler, Telvin Smith, Linder, Bortles, et al.

(03-27-2018, 12:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 12:19 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Opinions can change when the facts change.  The facts have changed just a bit since this thread was started.

Yeah - but lots of folks were claiming that "Caldwell didn't assemble any real talent" as a fact. 

That was clearly false. Caldwell did assemble quite a lot of talented players prior to 2017. Many were unable to see that. All that has changed in that regard is opinion. Not fact.

It's almost as if a lot of players take time to develop and under certain tutelage development can be hindered.