Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

It looks like the Armchair GM class of 2017 was a complete failure....

it's fun to reminisce and so called experts revealed as the frauds they are... fun...

Drafting well doesn't mean the players are great players. To me a good drafter is someone who picks players that have extended careers in the NFL(you can't always keep everyone you pick over the long term) and how you did with the picks you had.

He got lucky with Marrone. Bradley was a [BLEEP] box coach. With that said. Jury is still out. They have to keep building on what they pulled off in 2017. I don't think he's safe at all yet.

(03-28-2018, 10:47 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]Drafting well doesn't mean the players are great players. To me a good drafter is someone who picks players that have extended careers in the NFL(you can't always keep everyone you pick over the long term) and how you did with the picks you had.

Not entirely sure I buy this.

The average NFL career is about 3-4 years.

Chris Prosinski has been in the  league longer than that.  Ditto Blaine Gabbert.

I'm not sure I would consider either to be good draft picks.

The second part of your analysis (how you did with the picks you had) is a good criteria.

(03-28-2018, 11:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He got lucky with Marrone. Bradley was a [BLEEP] box coach. With that said. Jury is still out. They have to keep building on what they pulled off in 2017. I don't think he's safe at all yet.

Coughlin and Kahn sure made it sound like a big, happy, successful family in their interviews yesterday.

I think he's very safe as long as he doesn't decide to buck the saddle of having a boss in Coughlin. 

I think the Jags would be wise to ride the Cough-Well f.o. train as far as they can.  Seems like a good combo.

(03-28-2018, 11:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He got lucky with Marrone. Bradley was a [BLEEP] box coach. With that said. Jury is still out. They have to keep building on what they pulled off in 2017. I don't think he's safe at all yet.

How did he "get lucky" with Marrone?  That Marrone was available in the first place?

Marrone had a record of success as an NFL head coach.  He wound up on the Jaguars coaching staff, and improved the offinsive line performance during his tenure.  When he was interim coach, the team performed well under him.

As far as Caldwell being safe, Khan just signed him to another contract.  Why wouldn't Caldwell be safe at this stage?

(03-28-2018, 11:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He got lucky with Marrone. Bradley was a [BLEEP] box coach. With that said. Jury is still out. They have to keep building on what they pulled off in 2017. I don't think he's safe at all yet.

How did he "get lucky" with Marrone?  

Yeah. I'd say "chose the right coach" a lot sooner than "got lucky" personally.

(03-28-2018, 11:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:06 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He got lucky with Marrone. Bradley was a [BLEEP] box coach. With that said. Jury is still out. They have to keep building on what they pulled off in 2017. I don't think he's safe at all yet.

How did he "get lucky" with Marrone?  That Marrone was available in the first place?

Marrone had a record of success as an NFL head coach.  He wound up on the Jaguars coaching staff, and improved the offinsive line performance during his tenure.  When he was interim coach, the team performed well under him.

As far as Caldwell being safe, Khan just signed him to another contract.  Why wouldn't Caldwell be safe at this stage?

That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

Not to mention everything Caldwell can learn from Coughlin.

(03-28-2018, 11:32 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]How did he "get lucky" with Marrone?  That Marrone was available in the first place?

Marrone had a record of success as an NFL head coach.  He wound up on the Jaguars coaching staff, and improved the offinsive line performance during his tenure.  When he was interim coach, the team performed well under him.

As far as Caldwell being safe, Khan just signed him to another contract.  Why wouldn't Caldwell be safe at this stage?

That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

That's not an observation. It's an opinion. You are basically saying that no other coach the Jags were considering outside of Marrone could have taken this talented roster to the post-season. Which is quite a stretch in reasoning. 

Marrone didn't bail anyone out.  He jumped at the chance to be one of 32 head coaches in the NFL -  with a team and organization he was familiar with to boot. It so happens that Caldwell and Kahn (and to a lesser degree Coughlin) were wise to appoint him.  I fail to see any luck in the equation. 

It's been pretty well documented that the Bradley hire and retention were joint decisions in which the owner and his son had stake in. Caldwell is not free from blame, but we don't know the dynamics of those decisions and how much sway Caldwell ultimately held.

(03-28-2018, 11:10 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 10:47 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]Drafting well doesn't mean the players are great players. To me a good drafter is someone who picks players that have extended careers in the NFL(you can't always keep everyone you pick over the long term) and how you did with the picks you had.

Not entirely sure I buy this.

The average NFL career is about 3-4 years.

Chris Prosinski has been in the  league longer than that.  Ditto Blaine Gabbert.

I'm not sure I would consider either to be good draft picks.

The second part of your analysis (how you did with the picks you had) is a good criteria.

What I mean by that is do the guys stay in the league and are starters or at least solid back ups, depending on the round. When it is bad is when you draft guys who are out of the league or 2 years. Complete busts. Those are the ones you have to avoid.

(03-28-2018, 11:32 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]How did he "get lucky" with Marrone?  That Marrone was available in the first place?

Marrone had a record of success as an NFL head coach.  He wound up on the Jaguars coaching staff, and improved the offinsive line performance during his tenure.  When he was interim coach, the team performed well under him.

As far as Caldwell being safe, Khan just signed him to another contract.  Why wouldn't Caldwell be safe at this stage?

That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

Keep in mind that many on this board and in the fan base in general wanted Marrone canned as well and wanted a complete start.  It was understandable given the team's record during that time (and I acknowledged as much when I made my advocacy for Marrone).  But if Caldwell is going to get the blame for the Bradley hiring (as he should), he has to get the credit for the Marrone hiring.  But for the purposes of this discussion, I cede the point Caldwell's coaching hiring has been questionable.  At best, he's batting .500 in that area.

But his drafting has been top notch.  His only real failing is the failure to acquire a top flight franchise signal caller.  But once he got a running game and defense to support him, keep him in games, and not have all of the pressure on him, Bortles played well.  We have one of the most talented teams in the league.

(03-28-2018, 11:47 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:32 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

That's not an observation. It's an opinion. You are basically saying that no other coach the Jags were considering outside of Marrone could have taken this talented roster to the post-season. Which is quite a stretch in reasoning. 

Marrone didn't bail anyone out.  He jumped at the chance to be one of 32 head coaches in the NFL -  with a team and organization he was familiar with to boot. It so happens that Caldwell and Kahn (and to a lesser degree Coughlin) were wise to appoint him.  I fail to see any luck in the equation. 

It's been pretty well documented that the Bradley hire and retention were joint decisions in which the owner and his son had stake in. Caldwell is not free from blame, but we don't know the dynamics of those decisions and how much sway Caldwell ultimately held.

True, true. We'll see. Hopefully 2017 wasn't a flash in the pan. I don't believe it was. I think it's reasonable to expect at least 9 wins or more in 2018. Ultimately the team needed a culture change after the babying they received under Bradley and it worked out in the long run.

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(03-28-2018, 11:53 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:32 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

Keep in mind that many on this board and in the fan base in general wanted Marrone canned as well and wanted a complete start.  It was understandable given the team's record during that time (and I acknowledged as much when I made my advocacy for Marrone).  But if Caldwell is going to get the blame for the Bradley hiring (as he should), he has to get the credit for the Marrone hiring.  But for the purposes of this discussion, I cede the point Caldwell's coaching hiring has been questionable.  At best, he's batting .500 in that area.

But his drafting has been top notch.  His only real failing is the failure to acquire a top flight franchise signal caller.  But once he got a running game and defense to support him, keep him in games, and not have all of the pressure on him, Bortles played well.  We have one of the most talented teams in the league.

Agreed. He's not completely at fault. And he's had some good decisions and bad decisions during his tenure here. Hopefully we can keep building on that.

(03-28-2018, 11:48 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:10 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Not entirely sure I buy this.

The average NFL career is about 3-4 years.

Chris Prosinski has been in the  league longer than that.  Ditto Blaine Gabbert.

I'm not sure I would consider either to be good draft picks.

The second part of your analysis (how you did with the picks you had) is a good criteria.

What I mean by that is do the guys stay in the league and are starters or at least solid back ups, depending on the round. When it is bad is when you draft guys who are out of the league or 2 years. Complete busts. Those are the ones you have to avoid.

Ok.  A player doesn't necessarily have to be great to be a good draft pick.

I can agree with that concept.

If you mean a GM doesn't have to draft great players to be a good GM...that's another matter.

If a GM consistent drafts good players, he could potentially  be a great GM. 

If a GM has the occasional miss (as all GMs do), then the miss(es) will have to be offset by a great player.

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

I defended Gabbert for 2 years, came out looking like a fool and I owned it! Looks like someone else has a hard time doing the same.

(03-28-2018, 11:47 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:32 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]That's what I am saying. Marrone essentially bailed him out. If Marrone wasn't here or had he jumped ship after being the interim coach in 2016. Had he just flat out failed as a coach this year it may have ended up costing Caldwell his job. That's just a simple observation. And even with the extension I don't think he's safe. If this team falls apart in 2018 and they completely fail to build off from their success in 2017 he's more than likely out. 

Prior to last year Caldwell's decision making was questionable. He waited too long with the firing of Bradley and he vehemently defended his stance on Bortles. Like I said, Bradley was a [BLEEP] box head coach. That's a given. But part of Caldwell's job is to identify and see that and he should have promptly handled that a lot sooner than he did.

That's not an observation. It's an opinion. You are basically saying that no other coach the Jags were considering outside of Marrone could have taken this talented roster to the post-season. Which is quite a stretch in reasoning. 

Marrone didn't bail anyone out.  He jumped at the chance to be one of 32 head coaches in the NFL -  with a team and organization he was familiar with to boot. It so happens that Caldwell and Kahn (and to a lesser degree Coughlin) were wise to appoint him.  I fail to see any luck in the equation. 

It's been pretty well documented that the Bradley hire and retention were joint decisions in which the owner and his son had stake in. Caldwell is not free from blame, but we don't know the dynamics of those decisions and how much sway Caldwell ultimately held.

I don't know if it has been documented.

However, keeping Bradley after 2015 makes no sense at all unless there was an agreement that Bradley would get a full four years. That's something that makes logical sense considering the disaster of a roster the Jags had in 2013. If that's the case, and I believe it had to be, then Caldwell and/or Khan simply took the honorable path in keeping Bradley.

(03-28-2018, 04:17 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 11:47 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]That's not an observation. It's an opinion. You are basically saying that no other coach the Jags were considering outside of Marrone could have taken this talented roster to the post-season. Which is quite a stretch in reasoning. 

Marrone didn't bail anyone out.  He jumped at the chance to be one of 32 head coaches in the NFL -  with a team and organization he was familiar with to boot. It so happens that Caldwell and Kahn (and to a lesser degree Coughlin) were wise to appoint him.  I fail to see any luck in the equation. 

It's been pretty well documented that the Bradley hire and retention were joint decisions in which the owner and his son had stake in. Caldwell is not free from blame, but we don't know the dynamics of those decisions and how much sway Caldwell ultimately held.

I don't know if it has been documented.

However, keeping Bradley after 2015 makes no sense at all unless there was an agreement that Bradley would get a full four years. That's something that makes logical sense considering the disaster of a roster the Jags had in 2013. If that's the case, and I believe it had to be, then Caldwell and/or Khan simply took the honorable path in keeping Bradley.

I believe that was the case. New owner, rookie GM, rookie HC.... they were going to give it as much time until they couldn't possibly anymore.
Fans will always say they waited too long... they were just trying to do right by their word imo.
Now that Caldwell isn't so fresh to GMing, and Khan is well established as an NFL owner and they've added Pros Pros like TC and Dougie Fresh.... Caldwell seems to be hitting his stride.

Lucky the board dosen't go back that far but if you want a real chuckle, half of these jokers were "ALL IN" on Gene Smith

"IN GENE WE TRUST" *barf*

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(03-28-2018, 08:55 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

You CAN give him credit.  You just WON'T.

TC did not bring in Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Fowler, Telvin Smith, Linder, Bortles, et al.

That is correct, but Caldwell did have "his coach" with Bradley and gave him years to wreck this team.

The sad fact is, if TC did not return to the jaguars we probably would of stunk again and Caldwell would be looking for a job now.

(03-28-2018, 03:56 PM)atburg Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2018, 06:13 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]So this is where we are bringing up old threads?

I can't even give Caldwell credit now because he is like a Jr. GM, This is Tom's team.

I defended Gabbert for 2 years, came out looking like a fool and I owned it! Looks like someone else has a hard time doing the same.

I gave Tom plenty of credit.  If you want to say Caldwell is a good draft guru, I would agree with that. He has hit more than he misses. Being a General Manager is a lot more than just getting talent.

The facts speak for themselves

Dave Caldwell as Gm of the team: 15 wins in 4 seasons

Dave got unofficially demoted and Tom took over operations: 12 wins in 1 season.

Dave is a good Scout but you cannot say he is a good GM. I can see by bringing up old threads the dead season is hitting some hard.