Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

A series of jigsaw pieces and no one putting even the borders down.

Quote:Do you guys think that anyone would want to come to play here though after what is going on this year? I think we'll have a tough time convincing free agents. 

 

Absolutely.

 

1. $$$

 

2. New head coach.

Quote:Absolutely.

 

1. $$$

 

2. New head coach.

 

They'll probably have to overpay by a bit though.

Quote:They'll probably have to overpay by a bit though.

 

I don't disagree, but money is the number one thing players chase in free agency and we have plenty.

Quote:Anyone want to change their tune yet?

That fact that you are serious about this is just sad. Gene Smith didn't even produce one pro bowler. At the very least, Caldwell did that when he drafted AR15. The only reason this fanbase is blaming him is because we have a tendency to starting blindly pointing the finger at everyone when we're angry - logic is completely thrown out the window.

 

The players DC has picked have been on numerous draft boards across the league. That never happened with Smith. Most GMs thought he was crazy for drafting mostly small college players.

 

The reality is that no GM hits on all of their picks and that's assuming the GM has a good coaching staff to take advantage of the good picks they do make. Without a good coaching staff, it's difficult to tell if the GM actually drafted the right players because even a talented player will play like total garbage without proper coaching and a good scheme.

Quote:That fact that you are serious about this is just sad. Gene Smith didn't even produce one pro bowler. At the very least, Caldwell did that when he drafted AR15. The only reason this fanbase is blaming him is because we have a tendency to starting blindly pointing the finger at everyone when we're angry - logic is completely thrown out the window.


The players DC has picked have been on numerous draft boards across the league. That never happened with Smith. Most GMs thought he was crazy for drafting mostly small college players.


The reality is that no GM hits on all of their picks and that's assuming the GM has a good coaching staff to take advantage of the good picks they do make. Without a good coaching staff, it's difficult to tell if the GM actually drafted the right players because even a talented player will play like total garbage without proper coaching and a good scheme.

Logic doesn't really fit into the whiners endgame around here.

Quote:I don't disagree, but money is the number one thing players chase in free agency and we have plenty.

I'm not so sure about that.

Maybe for some players, it's all about r he money.


However, over the course of many years, I've heard SO MANY players on radio shows and other interviews where they were asked point blank about choosing to go to a team where they could make a few million more dollars vs going to a team that had a serious chance of contending and winning, and the players most every time say they'd take the less money to go somewhere with a chance at winning.


I've heard players say that over and over and over.


One example of many was "Pot Roast". He was on the Jay Mahr (sp?) show a few months back. Jay flat out asked him "if you had a choice between going to Cleveland and making 10 million dollars, or going to New England and making 3 million dollars, where would you go?"


Pot Roast said New England, because winning was more important to him.



Again, he is only one of many players I've heard say this.

Being the Jaguars(sucking) and a small market(always will be an issue unless we are perennial winners for a long period) we will always over pay slightly, or even egregiously if we want top tier talent. Its just the nature of the beast when you lose a lot and you will not get exposure like you would in other large, or even more popular small markets. 

 

Our team is well equipped. A guard/RT Depth/#2 CB and even a serviceable QB and we are a 9 win at the worst with a good coach. 

People are seriously over-estimating the talent on this team.   It's not just the coaching, it's coaching AND lack of talent.  

 

It's nice to wear the teal-colored glasses and think things are better than they are, but when you look at the roster objectively, this isn't a loaded roster.  To be fair, I would say it is better (slightly) than the teams Gene put together, but we're no powerhouse.  There are a lot of positions that need to be upgraded, we're not a player or two away from the playoffs.  

meh....roster is better by some....results are worse.

 

Quote:I'm not so sure about that.

Maybe for some players, it's all about r he money.


However, over the course of many years, I've heard SO MANY players on radio shows and other interviews where they were asked point blank about choosing to go to a team where they could make a few million more dollars vs going to a team that had a serious chance of contending and winning, and the players most every time say they'd take the less money to go somewhere with a chance at winning.


I've heard players say that over and over and over.


One example of many was "Pot Roast". He was on the Jay Mahr (sp?) show a few months back. Jay flat out asked him "if you had a choice between going to Cleveland and making 10 million dollars, or going to New England and making 3 million dollars, where would you go?"


Pot Roast said New England, because winning was more important to him.



Again, he is only one of many players I've heard say this.

 

Probably because by the time they get to the point where they are hitting FA they have some money so yes it becomes secondary.

Hey, slide in here for a year's vacation.....make mAJOR money and then move on.

Set for life.

Won't be the first time it's happened.

I can't accuse Dave of spending a third round pick on a punter. Gene will be remember for that jewel if nothing else. But as far as production goes... I can't argue with what you say; we're no better now (in fact, we may be worse) than in the Gene Smith days.

 

sad...

I like Caldwell, but right now, realistically, his team isn't proving he should be far beyond a Gene Smith comparison. Right now he might be a notch above, no pro-bowlers from GS and Bryan Anger are the only things that save him.


Shad Khan is really not doing anyone on this team any favors. Every game with this clown car coaching staff is another blow to not only Caldwell, but to every player on the team.


With that being said, I've seen GMs fired for WAY more production, with less time.


Before some people poo themselves, I don't care how talent deprived this team was his first year. Its his job to put good product on the field, and he gets paid handsomely for it. I doubt even he would use that excuse.


Shad needs to fire Gus before he can do anymore damage, which won't happen until next season. If we lay an egg, Caldwell is out. I really can't understand what the hold up is.


I believe there is talent on this roster that another coach can win with, or at the VERY least not embarrass us all as much. Excuses have ran out, and time is closley behind them.

SMITH - Rounds 2-5     vs.       CALDWELL - Rounds 2-5

 

If you look at what Gene Smith did in the 2nd through 5th rounds of the draft, it gets pretty clear who found more talent. 

Smith:

Derek Cox

Cecil Shorts

Knighton

Mike Thomas 

Byan Anger

Austen Lane 

Will Rackley

Chris Prosinski

Andre Branch

D'Anthony Smith

Brandon Marshall 

Jarrett Dillard

Larry Hart 

Rod Issac

 

So 6 of 14 of them are still in the league and there's only one of them that would remotely be considered valuable if he were still a Jaguar. 

The other five still playing football would ride the bench in Jacksonville currently. 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Dave had his share of misses in rounds 2 through 5 also, but very obviously mined more talent:

Caldwell:

Myles Jack

Ngakoue

Sheldon Day

Yeldon 

Cann

James Sample

Rashad Greene

Marqise Lee

Allen Robinson

Brandon Linder 

Aaron Colvin

Telvin Smith

Chris Smith

Gratz

Ace Sanders

Cyprien

Denard Robinson

 

Of those 17 players - Ten (or eleven some weeks) are starting and only one of them is not in the league. 

There's really no comparison. 

Quote:That fact that you are serious about this is just sad. Gene Smith didn't even produce one pro bowler. At the very least, Caldwell did that when he drafted AR15. The only reason this fanbase is blaming him is because we have a tendency to starting blindly pointing the finger at everyone when we're angry - logic is completely thrown out the window.

 

The players DC has picked have been on numerous draft boards across the league. That never happened with Smith. Most GMs thought he was crazy for drafting mostly small college players.

 

The reality is that no GM hits on all of their picks and that's assuming the GM has a good coaching staff to take advantage of the good picks they do make. Without a good coaching staff, it's difficult to tell if the GM actually drafted the right players because even a talented player will play like total garbage without proper coaching and a good scheme.

 

 

Perfect response.

 

Kudos sir.

Im not ready to dump talent or GM. People say that as professionals, they shouldn't need proper motivation or guidance to play at their peak. I disagree. They are still humans, albeit physically gifted and wealthy ones. They still need proper motivation. A good coach could put this dumpster fire out.

Quote:If you look at what Gene Smith did in the 2nd through 5th rounds of the draft, it gets pretty clear who found more talent. 

Smith:

Derek Cox

Cecil Shorts

Knighton

Mike Thomas 

Byan Anger

Austen Lane 

Will Rackley

Chris Prosinski

Andre Branch

D'Anthony Smith

Brandon Marshall 

Jarrett Dillard

Larry Hart 

Rod Issac

 

So 6 of 14 of them are still in the league and there's only one of them that would remotely be considered valuable if he were still a Jaguar. 

The other five still playing football would ride the bench in Jacksonville currently. 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Dave had his share of misses in rounds 2 through 5 also, but very obviously mined more talent:

Caldwell:

Myles Jack

Ngakoue

Sheldon Day

Yeldon 

Cann

James Sample

Rashad Greene

Marqise Lee

Allen Robinson

Brandon Linder 

Aaron Colvin

Telvin Smith

Chris Smith

Gratz

Ace Sanders

Cyprien

Denard Robinson

 

Of those 17 players - Ten (or eleven some weeks) are starting and only one of them is not in the league. 

There's really no comparison. 

I disagree.

 

Real question, Why did you leave out 1st round picks? First round picks are the most important part of a GMs job. Caldwell has had a top 3 pick every year hes been here, and outside of Bortles garbage time inflated year in 2015, none of them have shown up.

 

Luke Joekel: hurt and bad at football anyway.

Blake Bortles: Close to being done (Could get better with coaching,well see). 

Fowler: Jurys still out, but he got benched for a 4th rounder

Ramsey: Plays like a really good rookie, hopefully he continues

 

Here's GS' first 4 drafts;

 

Eugene Monroe: Decent olineman, would still be playing if he hadnt retired due to health

Tyson Alualu: Bust, but hes in the NFL I guess

Blaine Gabbert: Bust, but again, Hes in the NFL still

Justin Blackmon: Huge bust, but talent wise, he was a home run.

 

From a talent scouting perspective only (guarantee you someone claims im saying Blackmon is better than Ramsey) , if things continue the way they're going, that's a toss up. Caldwell obviously has the advantage because his player are still relatively new to the game, but you have to keep in mind his draft position. None out of the top 3, meaning therotically he SHOULD draft better than GS, in ALL rounds, because Gene's highest pick was a 5th (8,10,10,5)

 

You also have to take into account that, for some dumb reason, the Jaguars/ Wayne Weaver didn't go after top FAs like they do now. They did with Jerry Porter and crew, got burned (happens to everyone), and bailed. I remember Randy Moss hitting the market, and Weaver coming aout and publicly saying that Jacksonville would never sign a player like Moss.

 

Uh... What?... We 100% werent getting him away from Brady, but he went on to break the then TD record. Why, in gods name, would you never want to sign a player like that?

 

My second problem with your comparison is that you say 10-11 of DC players are still on a team, but you have 3 rookies and four 2nd year players. People have to be pretty bad to be drafted, and then cut a year and a half later. I feel like thats way too short of a scope to make that argument.

 

I'm not sticking up for Gene Smith. He's was awful. I like David Caldwell and I think this team would be light-years better with a middle school coach. Everyone in Jax could love him, but if things continue like this, he'll go down as "the guy that might've been better than the worst GM in recent history".

Quote:I disagree.

 

Real question, Why did you leave out 1st round picks? First round picks are the most important part of a GMs job. Caldwell has had a top 3 pick every year hes been here, and outside of Bortles garbage time inflated year in 2015, none of them have shown up.

 

Luke Joekel: hurt and bad at football anyway.

Blake Bortles: Close to being done (Could get better with coaching,well see). 

Fowler: Jurys still out, but he got benched for a 4th rounder

Ramsey: Plays like a really good rookie, hopefully he continues

 

Here's GS' first 4 drafts;

 

Eugene Monroe: Decent olineman, would still be playing if he hadnt retired due to health

Tyson Alualu: Bust, but hes in the NFL I guess

Blaine Gabbert: Bust, but again, Hes in the NFL still

Justin Blackmon: Huge bust, but talent wise, he was a home run.

 

From a talent scouting perspective only (guarantee you someone claims im saying Blackmon is better than Ramsey) , if things continue the way they're going, that's a toss up. Caldwell obviously has the advantage because his player are still relatively new to the game, but you have to keep in mind his draft position. None out of the top 3, meaning therotically he SHOULD draft better than GS, in ALL rounds, because Gene's highest pick was a 5th (8,10,10,5)

 

You also have to take into account that, for some dumb reason, the Jaguars didn't go after top FAs like they do now. They did with Jerry Porter and crew, got burned (happens to everyone), and bailed.

 

My second problem with your comparison is that you say 10-11 of DC players are still on a team, but you have 3 rookies and four 2nd year players. People have to be pretty bad to be drafted, and then cut a year and a half later.

 

I'm not sticking up for Gene Smith. He's was awful, but right now, this whole team is a bunch of Gene Smiths, so I couldn't care less about sticking up for any of them.

 

I didn't bother comparing the first rounders as they are basically a wash outside of Ramsey (which gives Caldwell a clear advantage.)

 

I did bother comparing the 2-5 rounders because they illustrate my point very succinctly.

 

If you think "this whole team is a bunch of Gene Smiths" then I can't help you. 

 

None of these guys look like Gene's work:

 

Ramsey, Telvin, Ngakoue, AR15,  Marqise Lee, Linder and Jack in the drafts  -plus the signings of Jackson, Ivory, Marks, Nortman, and Amukamara are all very plainly better moves than anything Gene did with his opportunities in Jacksonville. 

 

I look at the base talent level of those dozen  ^ acquisitions and see a much greater base level of talent than any "best group of players" you can assemble from Gene's acquisitions. 

Quote:I didn't bother comparing the first rounders as they are basically a wash outside of Ramsey (which gives Caldwell a clear advantage.)

 

I did bother comparing the 2-5 rounders because they illustrate my point very succinctly.

 

If you think "this whole team is a bunch of Gene Smiths" then I can't help you. 

 

None of these guys look like Gene's work:

 

Ramsey, Telvin, Ngakoue, AR15,  Marqise Lee, Linder and Jack in the drafts  -plus the signings of Jackson, Ivory, Marks, Nortman, and Amukamara are all very plainly better moves than anything Gene did with his opportunities in Jacksonville. 

 

I look at the base talent level of those thirteen ^ acquisitions and see a much greater base level of talent than any "best group of players" you can assemble from Gene's acquisitions. 

Not to mention, all the players (outside of maybe Blake) were top 10 or top 5 talents in the draft.

I didn't read every page, but I'd say Jack Del Rio was just a majorly better coach to win as many games as he did with that hunk of junk roster. He probably have us with a winning record right now.

...and everybody wanted Del Rio gone.

 

I'm not going to go searching posts, but I said he'd be back as head coach somewhere.