Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:I didn't read every page, but I'd say Jack Del Rio was just a majorly better coach to win as many games as he did with that hunk of junk roster. He probably have us with a winning record right now.

 

  One major difference with the Jaguars from the days of JDR compared to the last 5 seasons is under JDR,  the team had an identity on both sides of the ball.    For most of the time JDR was the coach of the team,   win or lose,   the Jaguars were physical on both sides of the ball.     The team that played the Jaguars felt the affects of the combat in the days following the game and often even into their next game.     The long pounding drives the Jaguars had on Offense from 2005 to 2007 especially and the physicality of the Defense,  headed by John Henderson,  Marcus Stroud, and Donovin Darius were the team's signature.

Regarding Gene Smith,  I think the greatest issue with him as Jaguars GM wasn't personnel evaluation,  though he had a mega miss with Blaine Gabbert.    The greatest issue seemed to be not placing the proper value on players.   For example,  he should have done much more to trade down in the 1st Round in 2010 being that Tyson Alualu was his target.    If the Jaguars would have at least received an extra 2nd Round pick and still landed Alualu or a comparable value player,   the perception of Alualu would likely be noticeably better. 

Quote:Regarding Gene Smith,  I think the greatest issue with him as Jaguars GM wasn't personnel evaluation,  though he had a mega miss with Blaine Gabbert.    The greatest issue seemed to be not placing the proper value on players.   For example,  he should have done much more to trade down in the 1st Round in 2010 being that Tyson Alualu was his target.    If the Jaguars would have at least received an extra 2nd Round pick and still landed Alualu or a comparable value player,   the perception of Alualu would likely be noticeably better. 

 

Very true.  QB misses happen as well.  It might just be me but does it seem in hindsight that Gene Smith wasn't given a large budget to work with?

Quote:Very true.  QB misses happen as well.  It might just be me but does it seem in hindsight that Gene Smith wasn't given a large budget to work with?

 

  Good question regarding Gene Smith's budget.   I definitely would be interested in reading others input on this.

 

  One thing that stood out with Smith's drafts that was often discussed a few years back was the high % of small college school players he drafted,  compared to what the median NFL team did.    How much the Jaguars depended on scouting services,  compared to the field work/  financial cost to scout these players,   is something I can't even begin to speculate on.

Quote:...and everybody wanted Del Rio gone.


I'm not going to go searching posts, but I said he'd be back as head coach somewhere.

Come on man. You can't be serious. This isn't even close to the same situation. Del Rio coached multiple top 5 defenses, lead us to the playoffs twice, and even won a playoff game as a head coach. His worst year was 5-11 and that got him canned.

5-11 is Gussy's best year. He has had nothing but bottom 5 defenses, has never beaten a team with a winning record, and has been a complete failure in every single aspect of being a head coach.


There is no comparison between Gus and Del Rio. One is an average NFL head coach and one is the worst head coach in NFL history. The fact that Del Rio got another shot has absolutely nothing to do with dopey Gus. They are in two completely different universes.

Quote:Come on man. You can't be serious. This isn't even close to the same situation. Del Rio coached multiple top 5 defenses, lead us to the playoffs twice, and even won a playoff game as a head coach. His worst year was 5-11 and that got him canned.

5-11 is Gussy's best year. He has had nothing but bottom 5 defenses, has never beaten a team with a winning record, and has been a complete failure in every single aspect of being a head coach.


There is no comparison between Gus and Del Rio. One is an average NFL head coach and one is the worst head coach in NFL history. The fact that Del Rio got another shot has absolutely nothing to do with dopey Gus. They are in two completely different universes.

 

Who the hell was comparing anything to 'this situation'?  Please point that out to me because I don't see it.  If you read that into my remark, that's your problem.

Quote:Who the hell was comparing anything to 'this situation'? Please point that out to me because I don't see it. If you read that into my remark, that's your problem.

I interpreted your post as implying that we all wanted Del Rio gone and look at him now, having success. So the same thing could happen with Gus.


If that isn't what you were trying to say, then I apologize.

In the days of sucking, we tend to look at a single cause. First it was Shack. Then it was Garrard. Then it was Del Rio. Then it was Gabbert. Then it was Gene Smith. Now it is Bradley. And coming up is Caldwell.

 

When you fail, and when you have success, it's always more than one.

 

Regards...................the Chiefjag

Blaine Gabbert with Mike Thomas and Jason Hill combo was probably the height of our suckness

Quote:I didn't bother comparing the first rounders as they are basically a wash outside of Ramsey (which gives Caldwell a clear advantage.)

 

I did bother comparing the 2-5 rounders because they illustrate my point very succinctly.

 

If you think "this whole team is a bunch of Gene Smiths" then I can't help you. 

 

None of these guys look like Gene's work:

 

Ramsey, Telvin, Ngakoue, AR15,  Marqise Lee, Linder and Jack in the drafts  -plus the signings of Jackson, Ivory, Marks, Nortman, and Amukamara are all very plainly better moves than anything Gene did with his opportunities in Jacksonville. 

 

I look at the base talent level of those thirteen ^ acquisitions and see a much greater base level of talent than any "best group of players" you can assemble from Gene's acquisitions. 

The Gene Smith's comment was kind of a joke about my frustrations with the team as an organization.

 

I agree. Ramsey, Telvin, Ngakoue, AR15,  Marqise Lee, Linder are better players than GS ever came close to drafting, thats why I said Dave Caldwell is a better GM than Gene Smith. How much better is left to be seen. Ive stressed the fact that I do think this team has at least a pretty good amount of untapped talent, but if this season continues as such, and then we lay an egg next season, none of it will matter anyway, because he'll be gone.

 

Out of the FAs you listed (I personally dont see punters as a key signing) Malik and Marks are the only ones that I would call very good/ great signings, and GS never had an opportunity in Jacksonville to throw 100 mil at a player. Prince has outplayed his contract and it was a pretty damn good acquisition for the $, but if it came down to it, I believe he could be replaced somewhat easily. I like Chris Ivory alot, but he has 260 yards and 1 TD this season. Those are Slowby numbers. Probably due to the oline, but even so, DC spent almost 85 mil on 2 offensive tackles, and a top 2 pic on Luke Joeckel.

 

Also, I looked at the FA signings of Gene Smith... I seriously found 4 that were actually meant to be starters in his span as GM (might of missed one or two)

 

Laurent Robinson

Aaron Kampman

Tra Thomas

Poz

 

Combined, their contracts were worth 109 mil.

 

Here are Caldwell's. I left out alot because I believe I made the point.

 

Malik

Marks

Miller

Gerheart

Beadles

Beachum

Odrick

Parnell

JT

Gipson

Ivory

 

Combined, these contracts total around 410 mil. I would certainly hope DC made better moves.

 

Regardless, I do see this dormant talent, and I do think Dave Caldwell is a far better GM than Gene. With that said, outside of the 7 draft picks and the 2 FAs I discussed earlier, everything else about this squad leaves alot to be desired or just hasn't shown up.

Quote:Regarding Gene Smith,  I think the greatest issue with him as Jaguars GM wasn't personnel evaluation,  though he had a mega miss with Blaine Gabbert.    The greatest issue seemed to be not placing the proper value on players.   For example,  he should have done much more to trade down in the 1st Round in 2010 being that Tyson Alualu was his target.    If the Jaguars would have at least received an extra 2nd Round pick and still landed Alualu or a comparable value player,   the perception of Alualu would likely be noticeably better. 

I remember them saying they were trying to trade down but weren't able to.

Quote:I remember them saying they were trying to trade down but weren't able to.

 

  The questions then become how far down the Jaguars were willing to go and what other teams were offering.   Of course,  practically none of us know the answers to these questions.  But there certainly are times when GMs fail to maximize potential trade opportunities that would be better than remaining pat.

Quote: (I personally dont see punters as a key signing)

 

I included him because he has actually made an impact in a few games  - and by comparison Gene took one way too early in the draft that made very little to zero impact in 4 years. 

 

Comparing the way the two GMs chose to address need at the position - the wiser GM is clear. 

 

I agree with your points on Amukamara and Ivory to some degree, but they were meant to be compared to what Gene did at their positions  -- I wasn't touting them as elite talent.  Just better talent at their position than Gene was able to acquire. 

 

(I do expect we'll see Ivory's production trend well upward with Hackett running the offense however.)

There's not only something wrong with the coaching but the training too I would bet.  Guys are not doing the right exercises or eating the right things, something like that.

Quote:There's not only something wrong with the coaching but the training too I would bet. Guys are not doing the right exercises or eating the right things, something like that.

The worst part is the losing culture and attitude. Gussy came in and told everybody that winning doesn't matter as long as they compete and get better.

Sad part is....the team more often than not doesn't compete at all.

You would think on their own they would find a way to dig deep and come out of the funk.

But, I guess that would take a true leader of a quarterback .......

and not the interception machine we have now.

Quote:Sad part is....the team more often than not doesn't compete at all.

You would think on their own they would find a way to dig deep and come out of the funk.

But, I guess that would take a true leader of a quarterback .......

and not the interception machine we have now.

 

They are beginning to show signs of giving up.  However - we really didn't see that last year.  They were scrappy 'till the end in most games.

 And this year - outside of the titans game maybe - it's mostly isolated to a few individuals for a quarter or two here and there. 

 

Either way - Gus and probably a portion of his staff have lost the confidence of at least a portion of the roster.  That's a death blow. 

Quote:I remember them saying they were trying to trade down but weren't able to.

 

Then you remember wrong. San Francisco (pick 13) called Gene Smith about a trade for the #10 pick. Gene turned them down, and SF eventually gave up a 4th to move up to pick 11.


I agree with D6 that a failure to properly evaluate worth was a big failing. He would fall in love with a prospect and then reach for him, when he most likely could have had him later. Derek Cox comes to mind too.


 

Whatever Shack Harris' failings were, unlike Gene and Caldwell he was a great trader of picks. The Harvey pick was a bad mistake (and Gene was equally responsible) but the trade for the pick that ended up being Derek Harvey was the only time I can recall that a team was able to move up over 15 slots in the first round without having to give up even a 2nd round pick. Great trade, wasted pick.

Is this really a thread? 

 

Caldwell may not be the greatest GM.  But Gene Smiff was Gus Bradley bad, and that's pretty much all-time, historically bad!