(12-17-2018, 12:55 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 11:18 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]It's my fault. I always wanted Fournette to be like Adrian Peterson but I didn't clarify that I wanted him to be like the 24 year old Peterson.
He is playing like the 50 year old version of Peterson
Also this.
Peterson is having a decent season, something Fournette is unable to do.
(12-17-2018, 11:58 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 11:48 AM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]Fournette is in the same situation Gurley was in with Jeff Fisher, or like other posters mentioned Marshawn Lynch in buffalo or Ricky Williams. Something just isn’t right. I refuse to believe he’s as bad as his numbers indicate, and Marrone gameplanning like it’s 1982 doesn’t help.
A quality OC with a quality O-Line ought to be able to get very good production out of #27.
And to be clear, I mean "quality." Doesn't need to be "elite."
Injuries (primarily) ruined this offense in 2018, but as much as I was optimistic with Hackett in 2017 and early this year, he didn't seem to know the way to get the most out of his backs.
I thought he was on to it when he trotted out the two-back set with Grant and Fournette, but when Grant got hurt, he just abandoned that entire part of the playbook. Why the heck didn't he continue that with Yeldon and Fournette??
It would put Yeldon in space (where he's effective) and spread out the defense for Fournette greatly helping his game as well.
Every coach parrots that "put your players in a position to succeed" line. Fewer of them really figure out how to do it.
Well said NYC.
If Fournette and our offensive line can simply stay healthy, we're not even having this discussion.
(12-17-2018, 12:33 PM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 11:54 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not saying Fournette is a bust yet...
but I will say, he wasn't the RB you should be drafting in the top 5.
It isn't HIS fault Caldwell is kinda bad at his job sometimes.
What doesn't help Fournette is that he is running behind a makeshift line with guys that probably wouldn't be rostered in half the league lol
Flowers, Walker, Reed, these household names we got blocking up front are all pretty bad.
The amount of times I see DL guys get pressure up the middle, around the edges, and everything in between in less than 2 seconds on most plays is rough.
When they do give time in the pass game, our QBs can't see the field (Hey Dede is always open)
And the starters were getting some push in the run game, but we should not pretend that they were some all star cast.
Fournette can get you 2 yards when it should be a loss most of the times. But he can't break the big ones if we're not having any success in short and mid range runs.
Much like the QB position.... it isn't all on him, but as a highly drafted pick, we expect more and should expect more.
The OLine matters a great deal though and the majority of our offensive woes fall there truly.
Fournette definitely has his weaknesses. My main issue with him is his balance. Another poster mentions it all the time. He doesn’t bounce off tackles or run through arm tackles like he should. He also can’t create on his own, mostly because of his poor lateral agility.
as for his strengths, like you said he can get you 2 yards when it should be a loss. But his biggest strength is that he is terrifying at the second and third level, he has rare speed for his size. People always mention the 90 yard run against the Steelers but that isn’t his best run. His best run is the 75 yarder against the rams. He split the defensive backs that were 30 pounds lighter than he is like they were nothing. That run was a thing of beauty. The issue is he never gets to showcase that speed. Injuries are a factor but i believe the main issue is coaching. Marrone is essentially Jeff Fisher.
Fournette could also just suck but who knows. I believe he wouldn’t be performing this poorly in LA, NO, Dalls etc.
During last weeks game, the announcer pulled up a stat that showed Fournette has the lowest big play percentage of all rb's drafted in the last few years. Ugly
(12-17-2018, 12:58 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 12:33 PM)Kcirred Wrote: [ -> ]Fournette definitely has his weaknesses. My main issue with him is his balance. Another poster mentions it all the time. He doesn’t bounce off tackles or run through arm tackles like he should. He also can’t create on his own, mostly because of his poor lateral agility.
as for his strengths, like you said he can get you 2 yards when it should be a loss. But his biggest strength is that he is terrifying at the second and third level, he has rare speed for his size. People always mention the 90 yard run against the Steelers but that isn’t his best run. His best run is the 75 yarder against the rams. He split the defensive backs that were 30 pounds lighter than he is like they were nothing. That run was a thing of beauty. The issue is he never gets to showcase that speed. Injuries are a factor but i believe the main issue is coaching. Marrone is essentially Jeff Fisher.
Fournette could also just suck but who knows. I believe he wouldn’t be performing this poorly in LA, NO, Dalls etc.
During last weeks game, the announcer pulled up a stat that showed Fournette has the lowest big play percentage of all rb's drafted in the last few years. Ugly
Meanwhile, undrafted Phillip Lindsay is killing it. Fournette at 4 always was and always will be a bad pick due to the position he plays.
(12-17-2018, 12:56 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 11:58 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]A quality OC with a quality O-Line ought to be able to get very good production out of #27.
And to be clear, I mean "quality." Doesn't need to be "elite."
Injuries (primarily) ruined this offense in 2018, but as much as I was optimistic with Hackett in 2017 and early this year, he didn't seem to know the way to get the most out of his backs.
I thought he was on to it when he trotted out the two-back set with Grant and Fournette, but when Grant got hurt, he just abandoned that entire part of the playbook. Why the heck didn't he continue that with Yeldon and Fournette??
It would put Yeldon in space (where he's effective) and spread out the defense for Fournette greatly helping his game as well.
Every coach parrots that "put your players in a position to succeed" line. Fewer of them really figure out how to do it.
Well said NYC.
If Fournette and our offensive line can simply stay healthy, we're not even having this discussion.
Yes, we will.. because he just doesn't have the ability to be a game changer.
Not his fault he was picked at 4. But he was. He won't live up to that.
How quick we are to forget how well he played last year with just average oline play. It also helped that last year they gave him enough carries in a row to get him going, this year it aeema that every time he hits a groove he inexplicably ia subbed out.
Also the types of plays were giving him do him no favors, he plays best when deep in the backfield with the qb under center (and a + with a FB in front of him) naturally were in shotgun bc thats what our inept qbs are comfortable with. Hes a gap runner, we dont have the oline depth healthy right now to execute a power-O or gap playcall that much is painfully obvious. Slamming him behind the backup center does no favors, i cant remember the last time i saw him get a toss, pitch, counter etc. It also doesnt help that our formationa telegraph if ita run or pass and more so what TYPE of run or pass it will be, ive started to see paterns of what plays are run out of which perssonnel groups, if i can see that ... so can opposing defenses.
Everyone is oh so mad with hindsight but let's be honest, this man is our best offensive player. This thread reminds me of when ppl would rage at MJD for not doimg more on some talentless offenses (even in the year he won the rushing title) everyone here wanta to scapegoat fournette so bad bc were mad we dont have a qb.... so silly.
(12-17-2018, 01:37 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 12:58 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]During last weeks game, the announcer pulled up a stat that showed Fournette has the lowest big play percentage of all rb's drafted in the last few years. Ugly
I posted this a little bit ago.
https://twitter.com/IE_NFL/status/1070810181049688064
Youch one of the worst in the league. He gets yards by just getting lots of carries.
(12-17-2018, 01:57 PM)Firesky Wrote: [ -> ]How quick we are to forget how well he played last year with just average oline play. It also helped that last year they gave him enough carries in a row to get him going, this year it aeema that every time he hits a groove he inexplicably ia subbed out.
Also the types of plays were giving him do him no favors, he plays best when deep in the backfield with the qb under center (and a + with a FB in front of him) naturally were in shotgun bc thats what our inept qbs are comfortable with. Hes a gap runner, we dont have the oline depth healthy right now to execute a power-O or gap playcall that much is painfully obvious. Slamming him behind the backup center does no favors, i cant remember the last time i saw him get a toss, pitch, counter etc. It also doesnt help that our formationa telegraph if ita run or pass and more so what TYPE of run or pass it will be, ive started to see paterns of what plays are run out of which perssonnel groups, if i can see that ... so can opposing defenses.
Everyone is oh so mad with hindsight but let's be honest, this man is our best offensive player. This thread reminds me of when ppl would rage at MJD for not doimg more on some talentless offenses (even in the year he won the rushing title) everyone here wanta to scapegoat fournette so bad bc were mad we dont have a qb.... so silly.
I must have missed where he played well.
I saw him get easy yards that any RB could have gotten.
(12-17-2018, 01:57 PM)Firesky Wrote: [ -> ]How quick we are to forget how well he played last year with just average oline play.
...
Everyone is oh so mad with hindsight but let's be honest, this man is our best offensive player.
...everyone here wanta to scapegoat fournette so bad bc were mad we dont have a qb.... so silly.
I don't want to make a scapegoat of him. I just think he was a bad pick at #4 and he needs a quality O-Line to be productive.
I really wish we'd traded out of the pick and helped other positions.
I also do not think he's the best offensive player, I think that's probably Westbrook right now.
I just pray to all things holy this franchise is able to fix the right side of their O-Line this offseason and keep the left side healthy in 2019. Because that #4 pick will just keep looking like a worse and worse decision over time otherwise.
(12-17-2018, 02:05 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 01:57 PM)Firesky Wrote: [ -> ]How quick we are to forget how well he played last year with just average oline play.
...
Everyone is oh so mad with hindsight but let's be honest, this man is our best offensive player.
...everyone here wanta to scapegoat fournette so bad bc were mad we dont have a qb.... so silly.
I don't want to make a scapegoat of him. I just think he was a bad pick at #4 and he needs a quality O-Line to be productive.
I really wish we'd traded out of the pick and helped other positions.
I also do not think he's the best offensive player, I think that's probably Westbrook right now.
I just pray to all things holy this franchise is able to fix the right side of their O-Line this offseason and keep the left side healthy in 2019. Because that #4 pick will just keep looking like a worse and worse decision over time otherwise.
I don't think the pick can do anything but look worse and worse with Mahomes looking like the next Rodgers and Watson looking like a franchise QB.
If no franchise QB had gone later in the draft then fournette could end up looking okay, but apparently the Jaguars failed to recognize an elite QB talent yet again, and that makes the fournette pick horrific. Not only is he a bad player, but they also missed on a seemingly generational talent and a good talent at QB. Now they have to pray the guy they desperately reach for in this year's draft (and mark my words, they'll pick a QB high whether he's with it or not) is actually worth it.
If he is then it'll be the first time the franchise has ever had a real franchise QB.
It was a historically good RB draft and ive never been a fan of taking a RB that high (ditto for Guards and Safeties yk) but he didnt draft himself in the top 5. Its a aunk cost fallacy, bc if hes not putting up 2k seasons "hes not worth the pick" i think next year with a healthy oline, him FINALLY healthy he'll shed the fragile label and average over over 4 a clip and all will be right with the world. We just need to keep him healthy, give him the ball a lot, and call plays that suit his strength and the blockimg in front of him and i think an overhaul of the offensive coaching staff will be just what the doctor ordered
The sunk cost fallacy would be going out of our way to continue making Fournette the bellcow that we build the offense when he has done nothing to deserve it. We need to admit the error and build an offense that can compete in today's NFL.
(12-17-2018, 03:51 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The sunk cost fallacy would be going out of our way to continue making Fournette the bellcow that we build the offense when he has done nothing to deserve it. We need to admit the error and build an offense that can compete in today's NFL.
I see the phrase "today's NFL" and other similar phrases that imply that the approach that the Jaguars are trying to take is "outdated". That's simply not the case. Many teams have won big games using the approach of having a good defense and a good running game. Far too many people want to see high scoring games, blowouts, multiple deep passes and a lot of trick plays/schemes. If I wanted to watch that I would turn on just about any college game on Saturdays.
I would rather see a defensive shoot-out and a low scoring, competitive game than a high scoring ridiculous game on Sundays.
The fact of the matter is there is not that much of a difference between the best team and the worst team in the NFL. Super Bowls have been won in this very decade due to having a good defense and a strong running game.
As it relates to this thread, I am not ready to call Fournette a bust just yet... though that label might be fitting if he has another bad season next season. I really want to see what he can do behind a healthy offensive line and with the team playing with a lead for a season.
(12-17-2018, 04:31 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 03:51 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The sunk cost fallacy would be going out of our way to continue making Fournette the bellcow that we build the offense when he has done nothing to deserve it. We need to admit the error and build an offense that can compete in today's NFL.
I see the phrase "today's NFL" and other similar phrases that imply that the approach that the Jaguars are trying to take is "outdated". That's simply not the case. Many teams have won big games using the approach of having a good defense and a good running game. Far too many people want to see high scoring games, blowouts, multiple deep passes and a lot of trick plays/schemes. If I wanted to watch that I would turn on just about any college game on Saturdays.
I would rather see a defensive shoot-out and a low scoring, competitive game than a high scoring ridiculous game on Sundays.
The fact of the matter is there is not that much of a difference between the best team and the worst team in the NFL. Super Bowls have been won in this very decade due to having a good defense and a strong running game.
As it relates to this thread, I am not ready to call Fournette a bust just yet... though that label might be fitting if he has another bad season next season. I really want to see what he can do behind a healthy offensive line and with the team playing with a lead for a season.
You may want to see that - the actual people who run the NFL do not - they want score, score, score, no defense. Which is why it's so boring to watch for me nowadays.
(12-17-2018, 04:31 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 03:51 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The sunk cost fallacy would be going out of our way to continue making Fournette the bellcow that we build the offense when he has done nothing to deserve it. We need to admit the error and build an offense that can compete in today's NFL.
I see the phrase "today's NFL" and other similar phrases that imply that the approach that the Jaguars are trying to take is "outdated". That's simply not the case. Many teams have won big games using the approach of having a good defense and a good running game ...
The issue I take with this is not that a "run-the-ball-and play-great-defense" strategy can't be a winning formula in the NFL today. It still can.
It's that such a strategy must be adapt along with the changes being mandated by the league. As rule change after rule change continue to be implemented to facilitate increases in passing offense, modern teams must be able to take advantage of what is being afforded them. Combine that with the trends in officiating (like the proliferation of non-calls against offensive holding that has come under public scrutiny) and teams can't just ignore what the league wants from an entertainment perspective.
That said - I think the Jags brass would very much like to incorporate enough of a downfield passing attack to accommodate these trends while still relying heavily on the run and great defense. They have simply failed to acquire the necessary talent to pull it off thus far.
The excuses made for him game after game remind me of the excuses people keep used to keep giving Bortles.
(12-17-2018, 05:56 PM)TheSchmidt Wrote: [ -> ]The excuses made for him game after game remind me of the excuses people keep used to keep giving Bortles.
Yeah, if your defense of a player is a continual stream of blame for everything around them being the reason they aren't performing then they're not a difference making player, and definitely not close to being worth a top 5 selection with multiple franchise QBs on the board.
He's only decent as a running back, and probably would have been more fitting as a third round pick. A guy has to be truly transcendental as a running back to be worth a top five pick.
Fournette might as well be Trent Richardson. I just hope the Jaguars can find the next Grigson to fleece like the browns did.
(12-17-2018, 06:03 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 05:56 PM)TheSchmidt Wrote: [ -> ]The excuses made for him game after game remind me of the excuses people keep used to keep giving Bortles.
...
Fournette might as well be Trent Richardson.
Still a terrible comparison.
(12-17-2018, 06:06 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2018, 06:03 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]...
Fournette might as well be Trent Richardson.
Still a terrible comparison.
So far you're correct, the browns got a lot more value out of Richardson (thanks to the colts) than the Jaguars have gotten out of Fournette so far.
From a production standpoint they're strikingly close.