12-24-2018, 11:47 AM
12-24-2018, 12:01 PM
Eh.
I could go either way.
I've defended Dave at nearly every turn, but I have pretty hard gripes with a few of his picks and the Bortles extension is looking pretty bad.
That said - the Fournette pick, the neglecting of the QB and TE spots, Borltles' deal, and some sketchy o-line decisions have come under Coughlin's tenure. So - who do you really blame?
I just hope whoever is working with TC this Spring is able to influence a good QB pick. I'm fine if that's Caldwell, I'm fine if it's not.
Caldwell's knack for finding value in the mid to late rounds is an asset. I still feel strongly about that.
I could go either way.
I've defended Dave at nearly every turn, but I have pretty hard gripes with a few of his picks and the Bortles extension is looking pretty bad.
That said - the Fournette pick, the neglecting of the QB and TE spots, Borltles' deal, and some sketchy o-line decisions have come under Coughlin's tenure. So - who do you really blame?
I just hope whoever is working with TC this Spring is able to influence a good QB pick. I'm fine if that's Caldwell, I'm fine if it's not.
Caldwell's knack for finding value in the mid to late rounds is an asset. I still feel strongly about that.
12-24-2018, 12:13 PM
No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
12-24-2018, 12:17 PM
Caldwell, Marrone and Milanovich should all get fired.
12-24-2018, 12:21 PM
100% yes.
The most important decisions a GM ever has to make are hiring a HC and drafting a first round QB. Caldwell failed both decisions miserably and then doubled down on the same QB and convinced everyone in the organisation to ride it out with him..we all know how that went.
There is zero reason to trust him to have any idea how to evaluate a QB.
His strong points I guess I would say are his ability to get FAs in (although the money helps more) and the mid rounds guys every two years. I don't think that's enough for everyone to excuse him for how badly he's screwed up the most important position in sports though
The most important decisions a GM ever has to make are hiring a HC and drafting a first round QB. Caldwell failed both decisions miserably and then doubled down on the same QB and convinced everyone in the organisation to ride it out with him..we all know how that went.
There is zero reason to trust him to have any idea how to evaluate a QB.
His strong points I guess I would say are his ability to get FAs in (although the money helps more) and the mid rounds guys every two years. I don't think that's enough for everyone to excuse him for how badly he's screwed up the most important position in sports though
12-24-2018, 12:28 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:21 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]100% yes.
The most important decisions a GM ever has to make are hiring a HC and drafting a first round QB. Caldwell failed both decisions miserably and then doubled down on the same QB and convinced everyone in the organisation to ride it out with him..we all know how that went.
There is zero reason to trust him to have any idea how to evaluate a QB.
His strong points I guess I would say are his ability to get FAs in (although the money helps more) and the mid rounds guys every two years. I don't think that's enough for everyone to excuse him for how badly he's screwed up the most important position in sports though
Agree with you again. It's rare for me to agree with you on 2 straight posts
(12-24-2018, 12:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
That's not hard to do where we were and where he picked in the draft. His teams has won no more than 5 games in 4 of the 5 seasons he has been here. I just have a bit higher standards for this team I guess especially with all the top 5 draft picks we had and possibly getting another with 1 more week left in the regular season
12-24-2018, 12:36 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:28 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ](12-24-2018, 12:21 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]100% yes.
The most important decisions a GM ever has to make are hiring a HC and drafting a first round QB. Caldwell failed both decisions miserably and then doubled down on the same QB and convinced everyone in the organisation to ride it out with him..we all know how that went.
There is zero reason to trust him to have any idea how to evaluate a QB.
His strong points I guess I would say are his ability to get FAs in (although the money helps more) and the mid rounds guys every two years. I don't think that's enough for everyone to excuse him for how badly he's screwed up the most important position in sports though
Agree with you again. It's rare for me to agree with you on 2 straight posts
(12-24-2018, 12:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
That's not hard to do where we were and where he picked in the draft. His teams has won no more than 5 games in 4 of the 5 seasons he has been here. I just have a bit higher standards for this team I guess especially with all the top 5 draft picks we had and possibly getting another with 1 more week left in the regular season
Must be the spirit of Christmas
12-24-2018, 12:49 PM
No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
12-24-2018, 12:56 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:49 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
It is crazy knowing he got the Blake pick right and he is the best QB out of those draft classes. Yes, he wasn't the long term answer but you can't be mad at Caldwell for picking the best out of a not so good group.
12-24-2018, 01:11 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:49 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
I dont see how one could argue that Bortles is better than Carr or Garoppolo
12-24-2018, 01:48 PM
I don't care. To me, if you waive Caldwell, you also waive TC.
We were close to the Superbowl. Give credit to Dave for this.
We were close to the Superbowl. Give credit to Dave for this.
12-24-2018, 01:57 PM
(12-24-2018, 01:11 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ](12-24-2018, 12:49 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
I dont see how one could argue that Bortles is better than Carr or Garoppolo
Because Bortles hasn't missed a game due to injury?
Garoppolo has a limited record with only ten starts in 5 seasons and he's spent as much time on IR as he has on the field.
Carr has been better than Bortles in passing, but the difference is small. Bortles is a better runner, so he has that going for him. I wouldn't want to build my team around either one. Also, Carr would have probably been killed behind our OL had the Jags drafted him in 2014.
12-24-2018, 02:06 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:28 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-24-2018, 12:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
That's not hard to do where we were and where he picked in the draft. His teams has won no more than 5 games in 4 of the 5 seasons he has been here. I just have a bit higher standards for this team I guess especially with all the top 5 draft picks we had and possibly getting another with 1 more week left in the regular season
So we've had 5 straight top five picks under Caldwell, the first two are easily attributable to Gene Smith.
That is sufficient to fill a 53 man roster from worst record in the league to <3 minutes away from the Super Bowl?
Wins and losses?
I still blame those first two seasons on Gene Smith. He wasn't going to turn that team around overnight. Nobody was going to do that.
He hired Bradley, and that had damaging effects in '15 and '16.
He hired Marrone at the end of '16 and the team won when healthy.
This year, the offense was decimated by injury.
His biggest weakness was missing at QB.
But to say all of the top 5 picks were why he turned the team around completely misrepresents what transpired here.
12-24-2018, 02:10 PM
honestly Jags won yesterday,and Christmas is tommorrew. I say enjoy the win,and Christmas with the family. Worry about jags future after Christmas.
12-24-2018, 02:20 PM
(12-24-2018, 12:49 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
Good analysis.
As an aside, you asked about what happened to Cole. I was high on him after last year, but his play fell off this year and I was very disappointed. But after thinking about it, I have a theory.
This will cause some eye rolls, but I submit injuries to the offensive line hurt Cole and Chark as much as anyone.
If you noticed last year, Cole made his biggest plays last year on deep passes. He wasn't so much a chain mover as he was a field stretcher. If you noticed Chark's last year at LSU, he was primarily a deep threat. He was drafted to get that 8th guy out of the box and help open things up for Fournette.
I believe the injuries to the offensive line forced the Jaguars to run shorter routes, including Chark and Cole.
While receivers should be well rounded, I think all players have their strengths and weaknesses, especially young players like Cole and Chark. These two guys' strengths lie in running deep routes, while they struggle with the underneath stuff. If you notice, most of Cole's drops and fumbles have come on shorter, more underneath routes. Same with Chark.
Perhaps part of their development is learning to function in those underneath routes. Maybe they need to be better route runners, and develop a better feel for underneath zones. It's possible they need to better learn to catch in traffic and protect themselves and the ball from big hits.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand-Caldwell should be retained.
(12-24-2018, 12:56 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]Just imagine had he not drafted a QB in 2013-2016.(12-24-2018, 12:49 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]No.
Bortles has been a disappointment, but Caldwell said when he was drafted that he was the best QB available of the 2014 and 2015 crop. That's arguably true, and Caldwell was essentially forced to take a QB in 2014. Carr has faded badly. Mariota and Bridgewater are injury prone (maybe Garoppolo too, who had a bad start this year before his injury) and are not elite QBs even when healthy. Winston is as inconsistent as Bortles and has off-field issues. Manziel ...
While Bortles played poorly this year (and in 2016) he still has the team record for TD passes in a season by a huge margin, and had a good December and playoff run last year. This year he's been limited by the OL, the receivers (what happened to Cole?) and lack of a running game. I give Caldwell a pass on Bortles, especially after the rest of the 2014 draft, where he also got three Pro Bowl level players along with Lee and Colvin. The choice to re-sign Bortles after last year was as much Coughlin as Caldwell.
It is crazy knowing he got the Blake pick right and he is the best QB out of those draft classes. Yes, he wasn't the long term answer but you can't be mad at Caldwell for picking the best out of a not so good group.
What would this board look like?
12-24-2018, 03:46 PM
If we're keeping Marrone, keep Caldwell.
Clean house next year if need be. Coughlin included.
Clean house next year if need be. Coughlin included.
12-24-2018, 04:06 PM
He has missed on too many first round picks at the top of the draft. I do not trust him to even help with making picks going forward.
He is tied to Bortles and they both will be gone.
Having the top or close to the top in salary cap and having high round draft picks every year in his time here will do that. We should be much better off than were we are now.
He is tied to Bortles and they both will be gone.
(12-24-2018, 12:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
Having the top or close to the top in salary cap and having high round draft picks every year in his time here will do that. We should be much better off than were we are now.
12-24-2018, 10:32 PM
No. I wouldn't complain, but for me it's a simple issue: the rules. NFL rules state that a team can't hire another team's employee for a GM role unless that role entails final say over personnel. Coughlin has that, so we'd have to either promote a Caldwell lieutenant or hire someone off the street. There's no guarantee, imo not even any real hope, that someone who would be an upgrade over Caldwell would even want to accept a GM job that doesn't entail final say on personnel, let alone find a team willing to let a promising young scouting director walk because he wants to be Tom Coughlin's #2.
12-25-2018, 01:54 AM
(12-24-2018, 04:06 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]He has missed on too many first round picks at the top of the draft. I do not trust him to even help with making picks going forward.
He is tied to Bortles and they both will be gone.
(12-24-2018, 12:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]No.
He's missed on QB, but as I stated in the other thread, this roster is in far better shape than it was when he first got here.
Having the top or close to the top in salary cap and having high round draft picks every year in his time here will do that. We should be much better off than were we are now.
High round draft picks every year?
As I recall, the criticism is that Caldwell misses on too many first round draft picks.
Let's look:
2013-Joeckel-MISS
2014-Bortles-MISS
2015-Fowler-MISS
2016-Ramsey-HIT
2017-Fournette-???
So there is a definite hit in one out of five first round picks.
So Jalen Ramsey and Ramsey alone is responsible for the turnaround from 2016 to 2017?
12-25-2018, 08:02 AM
4-12
3-13
5-11
3-13
10-6
5-11 (most likely)
That's 30 wins and 66 losses in six seasons as the Jags GM.
Of course he deserves to be fired, but this organization has a real problem with accountability. Khan will probably keep the entire crew together for at least another year.
Either way, we have less than a 5% chance of making the playoffs next year. Our entire division got stronger, and we imploded. Now we have leadership issues, coaching issues and soon to be cap issues. It's not looking good.
Caldwell and Bradley should have been tied at the hip based on how long it took to get rid of Gus. Even if it was Khan's call, Dave could have been more persuasive on that. Add to that his terrible record with first round picks. It's true that not everything he has done has been bad, but it's been more bad than good.
3-13
5-11
3-13
10-6
5-11 (most likely)
That's 30 wins and 66 losses in six seasons as the Jags GM.
Of course he deserves to be fired, but this organization has a real problem with accountability. Khan will probably keep the entire crew together for at least another year.
Either way, we have less than a 5% chance of making the playoffs next year. Our entire division got stronger, and we imploded. Now we have leadership issues, coaching issues and soon to be cap issues. It's not looking good.
Caldwell and Bradley should have been tied at the hip based on how long it took to get rid of Gus. Even if it was Khan's call, Dave could have been more persuasive on that. Add to that his terrible record with first round picks. It's true that not everything he has done has been bad, but it's been more bad than good.