Far be it from me to actually praise this coaching staff, but...
Are they actually doing something right as it pertains to Fowler?
(Not sarcasm. Legit question. For clarity).
Quote:I know you were never a Fowler fan to begin with, but every time he's brought up you say the same thing man. "Only because of scheme and cleaning up plays". Since when is effort plays a bad thing and since when is coaches scheming their players into good positions a bad thing? Is that the whole point? To scheme your players into the best possible outcome, regardless?
The guy is an absolute force against the run, which is rare for pass rushers, especially in their *rookie season.
Is he raw in terms of his moves rushing the passer? Yes he is, but you can clearly see he has the ability. He also has everything that cannot be taught in terms of H/W/S, his passion and fire for the game, how violent he is and how he plays with great effort. You can't teach that stuff and he has it.
The biggest thing that stands out to me when watching him is, that he needs to learn how to use his hands much better. He's strong and violent, but running your shoulder into any OT in the NFL isn't going to work much at all. Soon as they get their hands on you, it's over regardless of the caliber of player.
He tries to stutter step into the OT and drive his shoulder through them too much imo. I think part of that is when he's gassed, there's times when you can clearly see he's gassed out there and needs a breather.
As far as Beasley goes, it didn't take Atlanta long to drop the experiment of him being a DE. Didn't they move him to OLB? I notice that they put him in at the weakside DE (our Leo) on some very obvious 3rd and longs, but besides that he's the weak side LB.
8th overall is pretty dang high for a WILL backer.
It's a pathetic example of confirmation bias. KY is desperately trying to justify his not liking Fowler pre-draft because Dante's spider chart was subpar. It's probably best to ignore him altogether, dude doesn't even watch the games. He consumes football by opening up an excel spreadsheet on his computer and waiting for a twitter account he follows to offer an opinion he can parrot.
It's weird.
Quote:It's a pathetic example of confirmation bias. KY is desperately trying to justify his not liking Fowler pre-draft because Dante's spider chart was subpar. It's probably best to ignore him altogether, dude doesn't even watch the games. He consumes football by opening up an excel spreadsheet on his computer and waiting for a twitter account he follows to offer an opinion he can parrot.
It's weird.
I have debunked this on here I don't even know how many times, and yet you keep spinning lies. I am a UF fan who watched virtually every Fowler game live, and I have watched every game of Fowler on DB...many of them more than once. I have seen pretty much every snap of Fowler's career multiple times. I will ask one more time to please stop lying about me not watching the games when I have proven that wrong repeatedly. Combining watching the games with the analytics is a novel idea huh.
All of that said, what have I said about Fowler that was wrong? My scouting report on him has been pretty much 100% right so far.
Quote:I know you were never a Fowler fan to begin with, but every time he's brought up you say the same thing man. "Only because of scheme and cleaning up plays". Since when is effort plays a bad thing and since when is coaches scheming their players into good positions a bad thing? Is that the whole point? To scheme your players into the best possible outcome, regardless?
I wasn't 'never a Fowler fan'. I believe I had him 7th after the 2 QBs, Beasley, Amari, Leonard Williams, and Bud Dupree. That's hardly hating on someone.
Effort plays aren't a bad thing, nor is being schemed into production. It's just not what you expect out of the first non QB taken in the draft. You can't stunt him every play, heck you can't do it more than just a few plays a game...which they have been doing successfully.
At the end of the day he's gotta line up across from his man and beat him from time to time and he just hasn't done that, not even at UF. He just doesn't have the speed or bend to beat an NFL quality OT consistently. Hence why the comment that if we pretend he was a day 2 pick it would be more proper to what he is delivering. Yannick is the one delivering plays that would be indicative of an elite draft pick thus far.
Quote:I wasn't 'never a Fowler fan'. I believe I had him 7th after the 2 QBs, Beasley, Amari, Leonard Williams, and Bud Dupree. That's hardly hating on someone.
Effort plays aren't a bad thing, nor is being schemed into production. It's just not what you expect out of the first non QB taken in the draft. You can't stunt him every play, heck you can't do it more than just a few plays a game...which they have been doing successfully.
At the end of the day he's gotta line up across from his man and beat him from time to time and he just hasn't done that, not even at UF. He just doesn't have the speed or bend to beat an NFL quality OT consistently. Hence why the comment that if we pretend he was a day 2 pick it would be more proper to what he is delivering. Yannick is the one delivering plays that would be indicative of an elite draft pick thus far.
Since you like to bring analytics into it, exactly how many times has Yannick gotten home without Fowler being on the field, vs Fowler being on the field?
Fowler lines up on the strong side when they're both in the game. Yannick is on the weak side and he's always seeing 1 on 1s. Where as Fowler isn't seeing 1 on 1s on the strong side when they're both in the game.
Who is on the field more in the base package, 1st and 2nd down? I know they use Yannick in base some, but I'd bet Fowler is in a lot more and Yannick is in more on the obvious passing downs.
Yannick is always put in a 1 on 1 situation whenever he's on the field. That's the whole point of the weak side DE, aka LEO.
Fowler isn't always put in a 1 on 1 situation every time he's on the field.
Quote:Who is on the field more in the base package, 1st and 2nd down? I know they use Yannick in base some, but I'd bet Fowler is in a lot more and Yannick is in more on the obvious passing downs.
This is the only one that there is a concrete answer for, Yannick has played 212 (77%) of the total defensive snaps this year and Dante has played 182 (65%).
Ironically these are the top two snap counts on the DL.
Quote:This is the only one that there is a concrete answer for, Yannick has played 212 (77%) of the total defensive snaps this year and Dante has played 182 (65%).
Where are you getting these numbers from?
If those are real numbers, from a real source, Yannick has more plays while always seeing 1 on 1s every time he's on the field. That's ok though, we all love production.
Fowler isn't given the same benefit, considering he's seeing time on the strong side at times and Yannick isn't.
EDIT: I just seen your edit and it doesn't surprise me.
They've used the Fowler and Yannick DE tandem a lot these first four games.
It looks like they're working Fowler back into things slow, but are realizing Yannick is no joke rushing the QB also.
Quote:Great, some snap counts... That really doesn't say much of anything though honestly.
Where's the hard facts? The analytics you like to use? How many times has Fowler lined up 1 on 1 and failed to beat his man? Or won his 1 on 1?
How many times has Yannick lined up 1 on 1 and failed to beat his man? Or won his 1 on 1?
I already said overall snap count was the only number available. Internal team analytics might be the only people that have the resources to do that. No public site that I know of has nearly enough manpower to do what you are asking for.
Quote:I already said overall snap count was the only number available. Internal team analytics might be the only people that have the resources to do that. No public site that I know of has nearly enough manpower to do what you are asking for.
Which is part of my entire point. We (me, you and everybody else included) make a lot of assumptions on stuff we see and have personal opinions.
At the end of the day, we don't know the exact scheme, or play call on any said down, yet we try and call out what we see.
We can see some formations and some sets, but that really doesn't mean much in the big picture.
EDIT: I guess my point is that you really don't have anything on Fowler besides opinion and a snap count
Whether you are a UF fan, a gator-hater, a Fowler follower, a self-proclaimed draft expert defending a post from March, or leader of the Ngakoue brigade -- all you have to do is watch Fowler play and it seems pretty clear...
He's just a couple of moves short.
As mentioned, his "hands" technique needs some help and he just hasn't perfected an outside move to the QB yet.
But he looks like he's damn close to figuring it out if you ask me.
I don't get the feeling I got watching Branch never figure it out. Fowler is clearly more athletic than that. Just needs some development.
I don't give a damn what anyone thought about him before the draft and I couldn't care less when he was picked. He's on the team and he looks like he can become a pretty good pass rusher by this time next season. I'm cool with that.
Quote:Whether you are a UF fan, a gator-hater, a Fowler follower, a self-proclaimed draft expert defending a post from March, or leader of the Ngakoue brigade -- all you have to do is watch Fowler play and it seems pretty clear...
He's just a couple of moves short.
As mentioned, his "hands" technique needs some help and he just hasn't perfected an outside move to the QB yet.
But he looks like he's damn close to figuring it out if you ask me.
I don't get the feeling I got watching Branch never figure it out. Fowler is clearly more athletic than that. Just needs some development.
I don't give a damn what anyone thought about him before the draft and I couldn't care less when he was picked. He's on the team and he looks like he can become a pretty good darn pass rusher by this time next season. I'm cool with that.
Fowler has already made more of an impact than Branch did in his entire time here, in my opinion.
I'm also not sure if you were referring to me talking about his hand usage, but that's easily the biggest thing he needs to work on the most, through out this season and moving forward.
Sometimes I just think he's too undecided at times. The stutter step does not work well in the NFL when rushing the passer. Hes got to pick a move and go.
You simply aren't going to win every time in the NFL and that's something every young pass rusher has to learn.
It takes time and I agree with you 100%. It's been 4 games and all you got to do is watch and you can clearly see that flat out raw ability that he has.
Quote:
I'm also not sure if you were referring to me talking about his hand usage, but that's easily the biggest thing he needs to work on the most, through out this season and moving forward.
Yes, referring to you and several others who have discussed it in other threads. It is a weakness currently.
Better hand usage would limit the number of times tackles are able to grab pads and stand him up.
I think he'll get that together in time.
When Dante was coming out, his comparison, at least on the NFL site, was Khalil Mack. What was the rub on Mack his first season? That he was strong, athletic, and a stud against the run, but only had four sacks despite always bringing pressure.
Seems pretty similar to me.
Now Mack is one of the top five best defenders in the NFL and consistently produces sacks. What's the difference between him and Dante? Time. Time learning one of the games hardest positions. So let's give it to him.
Man. We finally have two good young pass rushers and now we have to pit them against one another?
Who cares which one is better? Fowler caused the hit in Luck which led to the INT. Fowler has had a lot of pressures and my boy Yannick has definitely been in that backfield.
Give it a rest. Enjoy the two young fellas beastin in the backfield.
Quote:When Dante was coming out, his comparison, at least on the NFL site, was Khalil Mack. What was the rub on Mack his first season? That he was strong, athletic, and a stud against the run, but only had four sacks despite always bringing pressure.
Seems pretty similar to me.
Now Mack is one of the top five best defenders in the NFL and consistently produces sacks. What's the difference between him and Dante? Time. Time learning one of the games hardest positions. So let's give it to him.
Yikes. He ain't nothing like Mack, unfortunately. He is tiers lower from an athletic standpoint. Mack is a 97% SPARQ athlete and Fowler is 40%, and it absolutely shows. Please don't hold Dante to that type of standard down the road or we're all going to be disappointed in him.
His closest comp is someone like Jabaal Sheard, which would be a great outcome IMO.
Quote:Yikes. He ain't nothing like Mack, unfortunately. He is tiers lower from an athletic standpoint. Mack is a 97% SPARQ athlete and Fowler is 40%, and it absolutely shows. Please don't hold Dante to that type of standard down the road or we're all going to be disappointed in him.
His closest comp is someone like Jabaal Sheard, which would be a great outcome IMO.
I dont think he was comparing their SPARQ chart, he was comparing the 2 as to what they do on the football field. I agree, their games are a lot alike as did most analysts agree.
Quote:Man. We finally have two good young pass rushers and now we have to pit them against one another?
My point is that I'm not so sure we have two good pass rushers yet. Dante is a good overall player, sure, but as a pass rusher he has 4 total hurries this season (which isn't really a bad number that's 59th in the league)...but 3 of them have been unblocked. Yannick has 6 and I can't recall any of them being free rushes, but maybe one of them was that I can't remember exactly.
I do think that we have two good young defensive ends, one of which is a good pass rusher and the other one is just a good all around player but a bit subpar in pass rushing.
Also, Malik is 2nd in the entire league in hurries with 9, behind only Aaron Donald. Impressive.
Quote:I dont think he was comparing their SPARQ chart, he was comparing the 2 as to what they do on the football field. I agree, their games are a lot alike as did most analysts agree.
They are alike in the same way that Ben Simmons was compared to Lebron coming into this draft. It could be argued that stylistically they are similar, but that's kinda where it ends. Simmons is going to be a good all around player, but he ain't Lebron. Fowler is going to be a good all around player, but he ain't Mack.