Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Then he needs to tell us the truth about the state of the franchise and how other perspective coaches and general managers just think of this organization. The reason why I say this is because I'm starting to wonder how do NFL Personnel think of this job at this moment of time.

For instance, our defense is a mess except for the d-line and there's a good chance we might lose one of our best pass rushers to free agency. In addition, we have to shred a lot of salary because we up against the cap which going to cut more good players because of it. 

On the offensive side of the ball, we have two quarterbacks that aren't exactly franchise players at this moment despite what numbers Minshew put up this year there are many things he done on the football field that left a lot to be desired as a NFL quarterback. To add insult to injury, Nick Foles contract is close to unmovable and if he got to sit on the bench next year this situation is going to be a major distraction.

Even if someone want to point out that we have two first-round picks this year they not as attractive right now because we won yesterday. I say that because if the new GM and Coach wanted to get a certain quarterback they probably don't want to have to trade up extra draft capital to get him. 

Bottom line is I think our franchise is a mess going into next year so Shad Khan might decide to keep both Dave Caldwell and Doug Marrone because through back Channel he might have realized that no desire candidate wants the job at this time.

He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

My fear is the quality of vacancies out there. 2/3 of the NFCE are looking for new HC.

Shad would have to pull the trigger on a virtually unknown coordinator, but id start with a new GM and let him make that decision. Nobody can be worse than Caldwell.

(12-30-2019, 09:16 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]My fear is the quality of vacancies out there.  2/3 of the NFCE are looking for new HC.

Shad would have to pull the trigger on a virtually unknown coordinator,  but id start with a new GM and let him make that decision.  Nobody can be worse than Caldwell.

He's not succeeded, but let's not act we didn't go through Gene Smith immediately before him.

Caldwell has missed a lot of picks, but Gene Smith makes him look like a draft genius by comparison.

(12-30-2019, 09:20 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:16 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]My fear is the quality of vacancies out there.  2/3 of the NFCE are looking for new HC.

Shad would have to pull the trigger on a virtually unknown coordinator,  but id start with a new GM and let him make that decision.  Nobody can be worse than Caldwell.

He's not succeeded, but let's not act we didn't go through Gene Smith immediately before him.

Caldwell has missed a lot of picks, but Gene Smith makes him look like a draft genius by comparison.

Genes record was 22-42 with 4 seasons.
Dave's record is 36-76 with 7 seasons.

It is clear who the worst GM in our franchise history is, and it actually isn't even close.

(12-30-2019, 09:03 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

My man, take the anger out your voice because I wasn't directing that at you. You could have made a choice and not respond but what you're not going to do is talk to me like I'm one of your kids. I just had an opinion and I don't think that my opinion wasn't disrespectful to you or anybody else on this site. I am a grown man just like you so we can have a disagreement and a discussion like adults without the anger behind it.

(12-30-2019, 09:26 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:03 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

My man, take the anger out your voice because I wasn't directing that at you. You could have made a choice and not respond but what you're not going to do is talk to me like I'm one of your kids. I just had an opinion and I don't think that my opinion wasn't disrespectful to you or anybody else on this site. I am a grown man just like you so we can have a disagreement and a discussion like adults without the anger behind it.

Then learn what you are actually entitled to as a fan. Investment as a fan doesn't mean Shad has to explain himself or consider our thoughts on anything. You get an annual State of the Franchise presentation and what they tell the media, nothing more.

(12-30-2019, 09:25 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:20 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]He's not succeeded, but let's not act we didn't go through Gene Smith immediately before him.

Caldwell has missed a lot of picks, but Gene Smith makes him look like a draft genius by comparison.

Genes record was 22-42 with 4 seasons.
Dave's record is 36-76 with 7 seasons.

It is clear who the worst GM in our franchise history is, and it actually isn't even close.

Going by record they're practically the same, though it's a very stupid post and shows you have no understanding about NFL GMs. The team now has young talent (Allen, Chark, Minshew, Taylor, and Harrison to name a few players) but after after Gene Smith it definitely didn't, and the team actually made the playoffs at some point during Caldwell's tenure.

(12-30-2019, 09:38 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:25 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Genes record was 22-42 with 4 seasons.
Dave's record is 36-76 with 7 seasons.

It is clear who the worst GM in our franchise history is, and it actually isn't even close.

Going by record they're practically the same, though it's a very stupid post and shows you have no understanding about NFL GMs. The team now has young talent (Allen, Chark, Minshew, Taylor, and Harrison to name a few players) but after after Gene Smith it definitely didn't, and the team actually made the playoffs at some point during Caldwell's tenure.

Well, not only that but the firsts two years of Caldwell's tenure was spent cleaning out the garbage that Smith left us.  We were basically an expansion team his first two years.

(12-30-2019, 09:38 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:25 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Genes record was 22-42 with 4 seasons.
Dave's record is 36-76 with 7 seasons.

It is clear who the worst GM in our franchise history is, and it actually isn't even close.

Going by record they're practically the same, though it's a very stupid post and shows you have no understanding about NFL GMs. The team now has young talent (Allen, Chark, Minshew, Taylor, and Harrison to name a few players) but after after Gene Smith it definitely didn't, and the team actually made the playoffs at some point during Caldwell's tenure.

34% winning percentage for Gene, 32% for Dave. Winning is all that matters.

(12-30-2019, 09:41 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:38 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Going by record they're practically the same, though it's a very stupid post and shows you have no understanding about NFL GMs. The team now has young talent (Allen, Chark, Minshew, Taylor, and Harrison to name a few players) but after after Gene Smith it definitely didn't, and the team actually made the playoffs at some point during Caldwell's tenure.

Well, not only that but the firsts two years of Caldwell's tenure was spent cleaning out the garbage that Smith left us.  We were basically an expansion team his first two years.

Judging a GM by wins just misses the point, really. GM's are judged by talent accumulated, coaches are judged by wins. All you really need to know about Caldwell and Gene Smith is the team seemed to get worse every year under Smith from a talent perspective, but the team is generally thought of as having some talent to build around now.

Caldwell's biggest problem is he can't evaluate QB talent, but neither could Smith.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why you would go out of your way to defend Caldwell.

---

(12-30-2019, 09:46 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:41 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]Well, not only that but the firsts two years of Caldwell's tenure was spent cleaning out the garbage that Smith left us.  We were basically an expansion team his first two years.

Judging a GM by wins just misses the point, really. GM's are judged by talent accumulated, coaches are judged by wins. All you really need to know about Caldwell and Gene Smith is the team seemed to get worse every year under Smith from a talent perspective, but the team is generally thought of as having some talent to build around now.

Caldwell's biggest problem is he can't evaluate QB talent, but neither could Smith.

Caldwell can't evaluate free agents at 95% of the positions either. Also, every team has talent. We aren't special in that regard. People don't get here without talent.

(12-30-2019, 09:46 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:38 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Going by record they're practically the same, though it's a very stupid post and shows you have no understanding about NFL GMs. The team now has young talent (Allen, Chark, Minshew, Taylor, and Harrison to name a few players) but after after Gene Smith it definitely didn't, and the team actually made the playoffs at some point during Caldwell's tenure.

34% winning percentage for Gene, 32% for Dave. Winning is all that matters.

Is it Dorsey's fault the Browns ended with the same record as us this year?

(12-30-2019, 10:00 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:46 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]34% winning percentage for Gene, 32% for Dave. Winning is all that matters.

Is it Dorsey's fault the Browns ended with the same record as us this year?

It's coaching and that's on the GM.

(12-30-2019, 09:03 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

Excellent post and you are 110% right.  I don't understand why some of these posters don't apply for the GM job should it open up.

(12-30-2019, 10:03 AM)jagman Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:03 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

Excellent post and you are 110% right.  I don't understand why some of these posters don't apply for the GM job should it open up.

What is the application process anyway? I'll apply. I promise to reach back to the forum before any personnel decision is made. I can promise you the result would be better based off that business model.

(12-30-2019, 09:16 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody can be worse than Caldwell.

I just don't understand this line of reasoning. Caldwell could be mediocre, but he is definitely not bad. We seem to forget that he built the 2017 team all by himself. He did all the drafting, he ran the FO, he brought in all the free agents. We can blame him for the Gus Bradley hire, but there are also rumors that this was a Khan hire. There were reports that Caldwell wanted Roman. Would that have made a difference? I don't know. Either way, I think Caldwell's biggest mistake was drafting Blake Bortles and blowing up too much of the roster, which made the rebuild take to long. He admitted this himself.  

Coughlin came to this franchise in 2017 with a roster that was already in place. Coughlin chose the HC, and was almost certainly responsible for the LF pick based off the media reports. Who really knows how accurate these things are, but it definitely fit Coughlin's MO. We can also give Coughlin credit for Campbell, since Calais said he came here, in part, because of Coughlin. That's it. Coughlin brought in an iron fist approach, that ultimately created a hostile work environment, and was almost certainly responsible for driving away quality starters.

Khan should have a much better understanding of this dynamic than you or I. We don't know what's going on in the front office. Coughlin could override Caldwell all the time or they could have been in complete agreemeent. All I know is that Caldwell built the 2017 roster by himself. It was good enough to get to the playoffs and was a bad call away from the Super Bowl. We had no disgruntled players and it looked like a team on the rise. It went downhill from there. Shad should know, via hindsight, how much of that deterioration was on Coughlin and how much of it was on Caldwell. 

Here are the questions I would ask myself if I was Shad:

1. Did Caldwell want to resign Blake Bortles, or was he against it. It was his guy, and if he was the one pushing the new contract for him, it shows an inability to admit where he missed. I don't mind him missing the pick. All GMs miss from time to time, and it's hard to find the guy, but resigning him was a HUGE blunder.

2. What role did Caldwell play in creating the hostile work environment? We never heard any of these rumors pre-Coughlin. I want to know what his plan is for restoring the integrity of the FO.

3.  How much control did Caldwell have in player negotiations. It would seem that moves like paying Jack were influenced by Coughlin (paying for character, not play), but I have no way of knowing if that's true or not. I'm a believer that you need to let talented players walk, and be able to rebuild through the draft. 

4. Do I think Caldwell will do a better job hiring the next coach. How much influence did Caldwell have in the Gus Bradley hire?

5. Did Caldwell want to pay Nick Foles more than the market demanded. It was said when he came here, that they wanted him to feel like the Man, so they paid him more than necessary. I thought this was absurd when I heard it, and this season only affirms that. You never pay more than you need to for a player.

6. Which draft picks were Caldwell's and which were Coughlin's? When they were discussing future players, how did the guys Caldwell favor stand in comparison to those Coughlin favored.

If I'm Khan, I should know the answers to those questions. If they favor Dave, I've keeping him. There are definitely worse GM's than Caldwell, and my biggest reason is what I opened with: He build the 2017 team by himself.

(12-30-2019, 10:05 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:16 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody can be worse than Caldwell.

I just don't understand this line of reasoning. Caldwell could be mediocre, but he is definitely not bad. We seem to forget that he built the 2017 team all by himself. He did all the drafting, he ran the FO, he brought in all the free agents. We can blame him for the Gus Bradley hire, but there are also rumors that this was a Khan hire. There were reports that Caldwell wanted Roman. Would that have made a difference? I don't know. Either way, I think Caldwell's biggest mistake was drafting Blake Bortles and blowing up too much of the roster, which made the rebuild take to long. He admitted this himself.  

Coughlin came to this franchise in 2017 with a roster that was already in place. Coughlin chose the HC, and was almost certainly responsible for the LF pick based off the media reports. Who really knows how accurate these things are, but it definitely fit Coughlin's MO. We can also give Coughlin credit for Campbell, since Calais said he came here, in part, because of Coughlin. That's it. Coughlin brought in an iron fist approach, that ultimately created a hostile work environment, and was almost certainly responsible for driving away quality starters.

Khan should have a much better understanding of this dynamic than you or I. We don't know what's going on in the front office. Coughlin could override Caldwell all the time or they could have been in complete agreemeent. All I know is that Caldwell built the 2017 roster by himself. It was good enough to get to the playoffs and was a bad call away from the Super Bowl. We had no disgruntled players and it looked like a team on the rise. It went downhill from there. Shad should know, via hindsight, how much of that deterioration was on Coughlin and how much of it was on Caldwell. 

Here are the questions I would ask myself if I was Shad:

1. Did Caldwell want to resign Blake Bortles, or was he against it. It was his guy, and if he was the one pushing the new contract for him, it shows an inability to admit where he missed. I don't mind him missing the pick. All GMs miss from time to time, and it's hard to find the guy, but resigning him was a HUGE blunder.

2. What role did Caldwell play in creating the hostile work environment? We never heard any of these rumors pre-Coughlin. I want to know what his plan is for restoring the integrity of the FO.

3.  How much control did Caldwell have in player negotiations. It would seem that moves like paying Jack were influenced by Coughlin (paying for character, not play), but I have no way of knowing if that's true or not. I'm a believer that you need to let talented players walk, and be able to rebuild through the draft. 

4. Do I think Caldwell will do a better job hiring the next coach. How much influence did Caldwell have in the Gus Bradley hire?

5. Did Caldwell want to pay Nick Foles more than the market demanded. It was said when he came here, that they wanted him to feel like the Man, so they paid him more than necessary. I thought this was absurd when I heard it, and this season only affirms that. You never pay more than you need to for a player.

6. Which draft picks were Caldwell's and which were Coughlin's? When they were discussing future players, how did the guys Caldwell favor stand in comparison to those Coughlin favored.

If I'm Khan, I should know the answers to those questions. If they favor Dave, I've keeping him. There are definitely worse GM's than Caldwell, and my biggest reason is what I opened with: He build the 2017 team by himself.

Valid points and questions. I have always been a go with my eyes and gut kind of guy and it has done well for me.

My gut says Caldwell was put in position 95% of the time where he literally couldn't make a bad first round pick even if he tried, and the time he didnt have a top pick, he flopped like LeBron on the Taven pick. 

I laugh at the "we have talent" thing. Of course we do, the guy is constantly picking in the top 10! It's nothing to be proud of. Not to mention his top 10 picks no longer on the roster!

Caldwell had his chance as "the man" years before Tom got here and now we want to create this excuse for him that Tom could have been holding him back.

It's just time to move on IMO.

(12-30-2019, 10:03 AM)jagman Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-30-2019, 09:03 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't need to tell us a damn thing. You're a fan, not a shareholder. Learn the difference.

Excellent post and you are 110% right.  I don't understand why some of these posters don't apply for the GM job should it open up.

I've been wanting this GM job for years and have repeatedly said so.  Where is the career link for the Jags GM position?

Yes, winning percentage matters.

But let's look at Gene Smith vs Dave Caldwell in another light:

Gene Smith inherited a team with David Garrard and Maurice Jones-Drew in his prime.
Dave Caldewll inherited a team with Chad Henne and Maurice Jones-Drew on his last legs.

The Jaguars had 20 combined wins in the two years preceding Gene Smiff.
The Jaguars had 7 combined wins in the two years preceding Caldwell
The Jaguars had 8 wins the year before Gene
The Jaguars had 2 wins the year before Caldwell.

So Caldwell inherited a team with fewer wins in 2 years than Gene Smith inherited did in 1 year.

To be more fair let's calculate it this way:

GM"s first year: 25% of wins and 25% of losses are on the new GM. (75/75 on the old GM)
GM's second year: 50% of wins and 50% of losses are on the new GM (50/50 on the old gm)
Everything after that is all on the new GM.

Gene Smith's record: 17.25 - 46.75 (27%)
Dave Caldwell's record: 29.5 - 65.5 (31%) (this counts the two playoff wins, and one playoff loss. Gene Smith had no playoff appearances)

Gene's at least largely responsible for the mess he left behind. So those losses should count toward him, and less toward Caldwell (who you can't expect to turn a team around with one draft and some free agents) It's possible that Caldwell's record will still end up worse than Gene's (depending on how the next GM does), but right now I'd say Caldwell's teams have preformed better.

Of course, Caldwell's record is still embarrassing. But Gene Smith left us devoid of talent on all levels. Caldwell has some players worth keeping. Including ones he's drafted. Gene Smith's best pick was probably either a super obvious tackle or a punter in the third round. Caldwell's made some good picks. I think it's time for him to go, but let's not pretend he's worse than Gene Smith. Gene traded a 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder. He traded up for Blaine Gabbert. The most talented player he drafted was probably the guy who'd rather get drunk than get paid millions of dollars to play football. And a Punter was in the Top 3. He took Tyson Alualu in the TOP 10. I mean I liked Alualu enough, but he wasn't a Top 10 pick.