(04-14-2020, 08:46 PM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]the more and more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't think we should go WR.
WR's to me are the Rooks of the NFL. They are valuable, but are limited by their movement on the board because their involvement in every play is actually quite limited. Thats why the QB is the most important position, they are important on 100% of the snaps, also lineman.
WR's never change the face of a franchise, Calvin, AJ, Amari, Moss, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Odell have a combined = 0 SUPER BOWL WINS
WR is not a premium position, sure its nice to have one, but with our team we have soooo many other needs.
You legit don’t think Larry changed the face of the Cardinals?
Also, Jerry Rice?
It’s obviously about the QB but I’d much rather have a Randy Moss than not.
(04-14-2020, 09:06 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 08:33 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Apologies. I have to remember not everyone is old like me.
You would have been.. what...15 when Torry Holt was drafted?
Ugh.
Let me try to give more contemporary examples...
Michael Thomas, Amari Cooper, Santonio Holmes, Lee Evans, Deebo Samuel.
No I don't consider any of them elite prospects when coming out other than Cooper. I wanted Cooper when he came out but this is a much better draft
I would have taken all of those guys in the first round except Michael Thomas, but only because I didn't know much about him. I get the preference towards the physical beasts like Megatron. My only point is you don't have to be 6-5 230 to be worth a first round pick at WR. A smaller speedster/route runner can make big plays for an offense by gaining separation. To wit, though Jeudy and Ruggs are smaller in stature than a megatron or Moss, I think both are capable of boosting an offense and are worth first round picks, even 9, under the right circumstances.
(04-14-2020, 09:37 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 09:06 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]No I don't consider any of them elite prospects when coming out other than Cooper. I wanted Cooper when he came out but this is a much better draft
I would have taken all of those guys in the first round except Michael Thomas, but only because I didn't know much about him. I get the preference towards the physical beasts like Megatron. My only point is you don't have to be 6-5 230 to be worth a first round pick at WR. A smaller speedster/route runner can make big plays for an offense by gaining separation. To wit, though Jeudy and Ruggs are smaller in stature than a megatron or Moss, I think both are capable of boosting an offense and are worth first round picks, even 9, under the right circumstances.
I never said I wouldn't draft any of those in the first. I don't think they were elite prospects other than Cooper. I like Lamb and Jeudy I just don't think neither are elite like Justin Blackmon was. I would draft Lamb or Jeudy at 20 depending on who is available i just wouldn't take them at 9 in this draft. If they were in the 2013 or 2015 draft I would draft them early
(04-14-2020, 10:19 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 09:37 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I would have taken all of those guys in the first round except Michael Thomas, but only because I didn't know much about him. I get the preference towards the physical beasts like Megatron. My only point is you don't have to be 6-5 230 to be worth a first round pick at WR. A smaller speedster/route runner can make big plays for an offense by gaining separation. To wit, though Jeudy and Ruggs are smaller in stature than a megatron or Moss, I think both are capable of boosting an offense and are worth first round picks, even 9, under the right circumstances.
I never said I wouldn't draft any of those in the first. I don't think we're elite prospects other than Cooper. I like Lamb and Jeudy I just don't think neither are elite like Justin Blackmon was. I would draft Lamb or Jeudy at 20 depending on who is available i just wouldn't take them at 9 in this draft. If they were in the 2013 or 2015 draft I would draft them early
Gotcha. Did not mean to misrepresent your thoughts.
An understandable take.
I disagree with that assessment on Jeudy. I think Jeudy and Ruggs warrant early to mid first round consideration. But I agree I would not take Lamb above 20 in this draft.
(04-14-2020, 09:29 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 08:46 PM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]the more and more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't think we should go WR.
WR's to me are the Rooks of the NFL. They are valuable, but are limited by their movement on the board because their involvement in every play is actually quite limited. Thats why the QB is the most important position, they are important on 100% of the snaps, also lineman.
WR's never change the face of a franchise, Calvin, AJ, Amari, Moss, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Odell have a combined = 0 SUPER BOWL WINS
WR is not a premium position, sure its nice to have one, but with our team we have soooo many other needs.
You legit don’t think Larry changed the face of the Cardinals?
Also, Jerry Rice?
It’s obviously about the QB but I’d much rather have a Randy Moss than not.
Jerry Rice is incomparable he's maybe the best NFL player ever.
Larry changed the Cardinals, but he did not make them into a contender, he made them a viable threat if they were ever in contention, and they largely were not in his tenure.
I'd rather have Moss too, but having Moss isn't going to matter as much as an effective Oline, Pass Rush, Running game, CB's, and QB play. Those come first in my book before WR's.
I just dont think Juedy or Lamb are the next Moss
(04-15-2020, 03:31 AM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 09:29 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]You legit don’t think Larry changed the face of the Cardinals?
Also, Jerry Rice?
It’s obviously about the QB but I’d much rather have a Randy Moss than not.
Jerry Rice is incomparable he's maybe the best NFL player ever.
Larry changed the Cardinals, but he did not make them into a contender, he made them a viable threat if they were ever in contention, and they largely were not in his tenure.
I'd rather have Moss too, but having Moss isn't going to matter as much as an effective Oline, Pass Rush, Running game, CB's, and QB play. Those come first in my book before WR's.
I just dont think Juedy or Lamb are the next Moss
I mean to be fair the Cardinals were what 30 seconds away from winning a superbowl. In honesty, doesn't really matter who you draft in the 1st round if you don't have a good QB. Obviously if you surround your QB with weapons(chiefs/Ravens/Saints/Niners/Packers) it definitely helps. Joe Thomas might be the best Tackle of all time and was a first round pick and he went to 1 playoff game. If you can't get a QB to be the game changer then really you're just drafting to get a better roster for when you can get that QB.
(04-15-2020, 04:50 AM)ColoJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020, 03:31 AM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]Jerry Rice is incomparable he's maybe the best NFL player ever.
Larry changed the Cardinals, but he did not make them into a contender, he made them a viable threat if they were ever in contention, and they largely were not in his tenure.
I'd rather have Moss too, but having Moss isn't going to matter as much as an effective Oline, Pass Rush, Running game, CB's, and QB play. Those come first in my book before WR's.
I just dont think Juedy or Lamb are the next Moss
I mean to be fair the Cardinals were what 30 seconds away from winning a superbowl. In honesty, doesn't really matter who you draft in the 1st round if you don't have a good QB. Obviously if you surround your QB with weapons(chiefs/Ravens/Saints/Niners/Packers) it definitely helps. Joe Thomas might be the best Tackle of all time and was a first round pick and he went to 1 playoff game. If you can't get a QB to be the game changer then really you're just drafting to get a better roster for when you can get that QB.
Which is why we need to surround minshew with weapons. He has something special, but we need to give him a legit chance to develop.
(04-14-2020, 07:41 PM)ColoJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 07:02 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]He'll get drafted top 10 because he's so safe. No GM is going to lose his job because he drafted Brown.
But no he's not a top 10 player in this class IMO.
Replace Brown with Wirfs and that's my top 10.
If we were to play Wirfs at guard he would be top 10 for me, but not at Tackle
Agree completely. just because you take a lineman early doesn't mean you have to force him to the outside....think about how long the Raiders flubbed that up with R. Gallery.
(04-14-2020, 07:41 PM)ColoJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 07:02 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]He'll get drafted top 10 because he's so safe. No GM is going to lose his job because he drafted Brown.
But no he's not a top 10 player in this class IMO.
Replace Brown with Wirfs and that's my top 10.
If we were to play Wirfs at guard he would be top 10 for me, but not at Tackle
Agreed, it would also make what has been our weakest position on offense for the last 3 or 4 years a strength
(04-15-2020, 12:50 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 07:41 PM)ColoJag Wrote: [ -> ]If we were to play Wirfs at guard he would be top 10 for me, but not at Tackle
Agree completely. just because you take a lineman early doesn't mean you have to force him to the outside....think about how long the Raiders flubbed that up with R. Gallery.
There is something to be said for positional value.
There is considerable sentiment that you should not take a RB high in the draft, even though far more RBs have been taken high-even in the last dozen or so years-than G. While guards typically don't have the rep for taking punishment like RBs, as a general rule, guards are found later in the draft.
I like Wirfs, and I think his skills would translate into him being a successful guard.
But I take him at nine thinking he will be a tackle first and foremost, and view G as a failsafe position.
(04-15-2020, 01:30 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 07:41 PM)ColoJag Wrote: [ -> ]If we were to play Wirfs at guard he would be top 10 for me, but not at Tackle
Agreed, it would also make what has been our weakest position on offense for the last 3 or 4 years a strength
Yep.
I also think they need to see
every added OL player as a candidate
anywhere on the line. Including the guys on the roster. Get the best combination out there and move them around all offseason till you find where they fit.
If Ereck Flowers new guard contract is any indication, (might not be) they may have botched an opportunity to keep a quality guard because they saw him as a tackle and failed to see how to develop him.
(04-15-2020, 01:38 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020, 01:30 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed, it would also make what has been our weakest position on offense for the last 3 or 4 years a strength
Yep.
I also think they need to see every added OL player as a candidate anywhere on the line. Including the guys on the roster. Get the best combination out there and move them around all offseason till you find where they fit.
If Ereck Flowers new guard contract is any indication, (might not be) they may have botched an opportunity to keep a quality guard because they saw him as a tackle and failed to see how to develop him.
I don’t think they are going OLine early and that they actually like their OLine group.
Sad.
(04-15-2020, 03:08 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020, 01:38 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yep.
I also think they need to see every added OL player as a candidate anywhere on the line. Including the guys on the roster. Get the best combination out there and move them around all offseason till you find where they fit.
If Ereck Flowers new guard contract is any indication, (might not be) they may have botched an opportunity to keep a quality guard because they saw him as a tackle and failed to see how to develop him.
I don’t think they are going OLine early and that they actually like their OLine group.
Sad.
Smokescreen translation: We realize Cam Robinson, a Coughlin pick, is the weakest link. We don't want to announce that publicly in case we're stuck with him another year. But if Okudah doesn't surprisingly fall into our lap like Allen did last year, we'll take LT player X, whom we really like. We just don't want another LT-desperate team, like Cleveland, to trade with AZ to grab him before us.
(04-15-2020, 03:08 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020, 01:38 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yep.
I also think they need to see every added OL player as a candidate anywhere on the line. Including the guys on the roster. Get the best combination out there and move them around all offseason till you find where they fit.
If Ereck Flowers new guard contract is any indication, (might not be) they may have botched an opportunity to keep a quality guard because they saw him as a tackle and failed to see how to develop him.
I don’t think they are going OLine early and that they actually like their OLine group.
Sad.
Everything points to this, unfortunately.
Caldwell has definitely earned a rep for gaming his intentions early in drafts though. So, I'll continue to cross my fingers that's what we're seeing until draft day.
(04-15-2020, 03:13 PM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020, 03:08 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t think they are going OLine early and that they actually like their OLine group.
Sad.
Smokescreen translation: We realize Cam Robinson, a Coughlin pick, is the weakest link. We don't want to announce that publicly in case we're stuck with him another year. But if Okudah doesn't surprisingly fall into our lap like Allen did last year, we'll take LT player X, whom we really like. We just don't want another LT-desperate team, like Cleveland, to trade with AZ to grab him before us.
I'd add Brown with Okudah. If Brown and Okudah are gone I think we draft Wirfs or Thomas
How is Jefferson looking from LSU for 20 if we go line early? Seems like he was faster than most thought, but he played from more of a slot position, where Dede would thrive.
(04-15-2020, 07:48 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]How is Jefferson looking from LSU for 20 if we go line early? Seems like he was faster than most thought, but he played from more of a slot position, where Dede would thrive.
Think he played 80% of his snaps in the Slot. You can get a KJ Hill or Van Jefferson in the 4th round and be very serviceable in the slot
Yeah i would not invest a first rounder in a slot receiver.
Slot receivers are people too.
There are a number of offensive coordinators around the league who play larger receivers in the slot and get tons of production that way.
Regardless of how you feel about Jefferson, I don't buy into the pigeonholing of him or Westbrook to slot work. Let Gruden and McCardell sort that out.
Dede actually translates better to the Z position in the first place - and I'm praying Gruden sees that. Just because Westbrook is tough taking licks over the middle - doesn't mean that's the best place for his skillset.