Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Not singling out Caldrac.

There were plenty in the Jalen Ramsey traded thread who shared his view.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1249564

Which is hilarious considering this regime is supposedly on a 1 year deal....

Something tells me they’ve been assured more than 1 season because this team isn’t winning very much this season. No identity. No offensive or defensive strength.

It’s a total rebuild.

Definitely maybe-sort-of—probably-not-sure

DM/DC are going to play out their contracts.  The Jags are in complete rebuild mode and will likely not win more than 3-4 games next season.  Khan makes money no matter what, Jags fan continue to suffer, and nothing changes in 2021.

If we trade either Yan or Fournette before Thursday, yep its full blown rebuild. We have a lot of picks but its asking a lot to turn us straight into playoff contenders. I agree this 1 year deal is nonsense, they seem to all trust each other and there seems no real desire to make big changes. Wash and Warhop still here?!!

My worry Thursday is just as we go on the clock you see Caldwell knock his drink over the computer and disappear into a black screen.

It sure seems like Dave doesn't believe Shad was telling the truth with his offseason quotes. Then again Shad said the same thing last offseason and Dave is still around so why should he believe Shad?

I sure as hell know I don't believe Shad anymore.

No. Fournette was here for at most one year. Trading him now doesnt change the direction of the team. Can find a guy in the draft that will give you same production

I'm really starting to have my doubts about Khan. He's more and more looking like an owner who only cares about $.

Fournette is only due like $4M this season. Whooptie doo, if this team is worried about cutting players making $4M... then I think it's pretty obvious they're not worried about winning.

I gotta say, I flamed the one guy on this forum (can't remember his name) who announced he can't take it anymore and he's switching teams. I'm not sure I could ever really do that but I'm genuinely starting to see what he meant.

Why root for a franchise that doesn't even appear to be trying to win? Like we had an insane defense built, then they just slowly let each and every star go starting with both safeties from that 2017 squad the very next season.

Why would you make basically ZERO attempt to keep a group that played that well together?

It's getting really hard to defend this crap.

So much for building off the rookie sensation QB who went 6-6 in games started...

If we were rebuilding we would have a new GM and coaching staff. What you are getting is 1, most likely 2, crap seasons not worth [BLEEP].

You can thank Khan for that.

Khans not the issue guys come on

He was willing to pay Ramsey whatever he wanted.

I’m sure it’s the same for Yannick.

Trading away Yannick and Fournette signals to me that Caldwell has been assured he’s got a couple years to turn this around unless we go 0-16

(04-19-2020, 01:05 AM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]Khans not the issue guys come on

He was willing to pay Ramsey whatever he wanted.

I’m sure it’s the same for Yannick.

Trading away Yannick and Fournette signals to me that Caldwell has been assured he’s got a couple years to turn this around unless we go 0-16

Talk is cheap. Khan said that - but did he ever get together with Ramsey and make an offer? Nope, instead they traded him away the second they got a good offer.

Khan owns an English soccer team, that team is decades of garbage as well. That league has no salary cap, so essentially the owners who care the most can spend the money and make thier teams good. Khan cares so little, that his team was actually RELEGATED from the top tier league down to a lower league for being garbage. It's literally like if suddenly the Jags sucked so bad the NFL demoted them to the XFL. That's what Khan and his son just recently, let happen to his English soccer team that was in the richest league in the world.

Freaking jokes those two.

(04-18-2020, 11:14 PM)sfljaguarsfan Wrote: [ -> ]I'm really starting to have my doubts about Khan. He's more and more looking like an owner who only cares about $.

Fournette is only due like $4M this season. Whooptie doo, if this team is worried about cutting players making $4M... then I think it's pretty obvious they're not worried about winning.

I gotta say, I flamed the one guy on this forum (can't remember his name) who announced he can't take it anymore and he's switching teams. I'm not sure I could ever really do that but I'm genuinely starting to see what he meant.

Why root for a franchise that doesn't even appear to be trying to win? Like we had an insane defense built, then they just slowly let each and every star go starting with both safeties from that 2017 squad the very next season.

Why would you make basically ZERO attempt to keep a group that played that well together?

It's getting really hard to defend this crap.

So much for building off the rookie sensation QB who went 6-6 in games started...

To me this is tanking for Trevor without tanking.

Some people have been complaining that this supposed one-year deal would cause Caldwell and Marrone to make short term decisions.  Now that they seem to be making long-term decisions, we're complaining that they're not making short-term decisions.  

What specifically triggered this angst about whether we're "officially" rebuilding or not?  

What probably happened is Khan asked Caldwell and Marrone for a plan for the upcoming season.  So they went in and presented a plan that included trading or releasing players who are expensive and/or don't have a long term future with the team.   So they presented that plan, which they are now executing, and Khan said, that appears reasonable, go ahead and do it.

Are we "officially" rebuilding or not?  The better question is, are we making logical moves?  Dumping Foles, trading or releasing old/expensive players, yes, those are logical long term moves, the type they should be making.  Does it mean the previous build failed?  Yes.

I don't think they're purposefully tanking.  I just think they're making some very logical long term moves.

(04-18-2020, 10:46 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]It sure seems like Dave doesn't believe Shad was telling the truth with his offseason quotes. Then again Shad said the same thing last offseason and Dave is still around so why should he believe Shad?

I sure as hell know I don't believe Shad anymore.

It unfortunate that you don't understand why Dave Caldwell and Doug Marrone are still around and Now in charge.

In Mr. Khan I believe.

NH3...

(04-18-2020, 10:06 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Not singling out Caldrac.

There were plenty in the Jalen Ramsey traded thread who shared his view.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1249564

Things were different in Oct 2019 when Caldrac made that post.  At that time, Foles was going to return in the 2nd half of the season and we still had Bouye and Campbell.

All that has changed so we're definitely in rebuilding mode now.

(04-19-2020, 07:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Some people have been complaining that this supposed one-year deal would cause Caldwell and Marrone to make short term decisions.  Now that they seem to be making long-term decisions, we're complaining that they're not making short-term decisions.  

What specifically triggered this angst about whether we're "officially" rebuilding or not?  

What probably happened is Khan asked Caldwell and Marrone for a plan for the upcoming season.  So they went in and presented a plan that included trading or releasing players who are expensive and/or don't have a long term future with the team.   So they presented that plan, which they are now executing, and Khan said, that appears reasonable, go ahead and do it.

Are we "officially" rebuilding or not?  The better question is, are we making logical moves?  Dumping Foles, trading or releasing old/expensive players, yes, those are logical long term moves, the type they should be making.  Does it mean the previous build failed?  Yes.

I don't think they're purposefully tanking.  I just think they're making some very logical long term moves.

When I reacted unfavorably to the Ramsey deal, I reiterated the possibility of a rebuild.

I was specifically charged with overreacting.

I always intended to come back to this topic after that.  Here it is.

I never said there was no long term benefits to this approach.

But I also don't think the execution of this plan is flawless (Ngakoue).

As for angst, initially I was going to say angst did not motivate this post, but as I continue through it and think about it, there is ample reason for angst.

Consider the following:

2013  Joeckel-Gone
2014  Bortles-Gone
2015  Fowler-Gone
2016  Ramsey-Gone
2017  Fournette-possibly traded or released
2018-Bryan-disappointing to date

Just looking at that list, at face value, it's ugly.  But it doesn't begin to tell the story.

Busts and disappointments happen to every team, and we're certainly no different.  Joeckel and Bortles certainly fall into that category.

The bigger problem is that guys we hit on, or at least who have had a modicum of productivity, aren't even making it to the end of their rookie deals without being shipped out.

One of the advantages of utilizing first round picks under the CBA is the 5th year option a team can exercise to keep a first rounder for a 5th year.  Rookie contracts of players drafted after the first round are limited to 4 years in duration.  By shipping out productive guys, we aren't even getting the most basic advantage of the first round draft choice, much less build a nucleus to help make a team better for the longer term.  Why even bother to pick in the first round at all?  

This is exacerbated by the team's limited success at best in retaining productive players taken later.  The team's best second round or later players since 2013 are Allen Robinson (Pro Bowler), Brandon Linderm Telvin Smith (Pro Bowler), Myles Jack and Yannick Ngakoue (Pro Bowler).  Two of the Pro Bowlers are no longer on the roster, and Ngakoue is trying to force his way out after not getting a new longer term deal.  Yes, Telvin Smith retired, but he has also been outspoken on social media about the Jaguars' front office.  People have argued that Ngakoue wants too much money, but very few have problems when the team overpays for UFAs from other teams when the contracts are first announced.

We're all celebrating Josh Allen now.  But if he continues to perform at this level or higher, he's going to want his deal reworked.  If this team continues to play hardball when it comes to retaining its own top tier talent-the few top tier players we draft, there will be holdouts.  Then, the same sad, predictable dynamic of lauding the productivity of a player until it comes to re-signing him, trashing the same player for wanting a new deal that rewards him for his productivity, watching him leave then finally wonder why we root for a team that loses so prolifically.

That's not long term planning to win.  Guys like Fowler, Ramsey and Ngakoue are all in their primes.  Robinson was in his prime when he left, and Smith was in his prime when he retired.

(04-19-2020, 08:30 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-18-2020, 10:06 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Not singling out Caldrac.

There were plenty in the Jalen Ramsey traded thread who shared his view.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1249564

Things were different in Oct 2019 when Caldrac made that post.  At that time, Foles was going to return in the 2nd half of the season and we still had Bouye and Campbell.

All that has changed so we're definitely in rebuilding mode now.

Well Campbell is 34.  We knew he might not be here.  We knew Dareus had a big cap figure.  We knew Ngakoue needed a new deal.  We knew it was a possibility that if Caldwel/Marrone were fired, Foles could be replaced.

Bouye got traded-that could be construed as a mild surprise.  Not many anticipated Fournette being shopped though most here seem not to like him.

I see a parallel to Jon Gruden stepping in and winning the Super Bowl in 2003 with Tony Dungy's team; Tom Coughlin stepped in and got to the AFCCG with Dave Caldwell's team.

Granted, a lot went right that year- weak schedule, minimal injuries, etc. you know the litany but the parallel, however loose, is there. Coughlin, as did Gruden, reaped the benefit of that and then ran roughshod over the franchise and left this mess behind when he was finally told to leave.

Is Dave Caldwell a good GM? I don't know but through my lens I see that he did a good job putting the team into position to win (and did a good job managing the cap) and then it was destroyed by Coughlin.

For another 2 cent take, I like what DC has done this offseason in getting the team and the cap back on track. Yeh, it's a rebuild IMO.

It’s easily a rebuild and there’s really no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Trading all your good players for draft picks and keeping the cheap/young talent? That’s called.... a rebuild.