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Full Version: Vote by Mail????? Ripe for missing ballots......
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This country should have been on vote by mail as the default 50 years ago, and should have moved to online, home voting by default 20 years ago. But Republicans need stuff to whine about, so they require in-person voting, which gives them a chance to keep turnout low (and thus win something, anything) and piss and moan about voter fraud on the Democratic side when, tbh, they're every bit as guilty. They just use laws to keep Republicans in power by redrawing districts and making it impossible for the poor to vote. If you have to choose between taking an hour to take the bus to your polling place, stand in line for an hour, and taking another hour to get back to work, knowing that doing so will cost you $30 of lost wage and that $30 will keep food on the kids' table, would you vote? Or would you stay at work and let the wealthier crowd with cars and paid voting leave be the ones in control of the voter booth? You know how we fix that? Absentee/mail-in voting and online voting. The only people against it are those who don't understand it or who know what it would mean for a certain party.

And while we're at it, all district maps should be required to be reviewed by a bipartisan panel comprised of non-residents of the state they're being drawn in to ensure that it's not the old Corinne Brown snakehead wandering its way through the Democratic areas of NE FL and the Panhandle. Killing the practice of gerrymandering will go a long way towards actually letting the majority vote be what wins the day, not the majority of people who can afford to take several hours to go vote.
(05-22-2020, 10:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]This country should have been on vote by mail as the default 50 years ago, and should have moved to online, home voting by default 20 years ago. But Republicans need stuff to whine about, so they require in-person voting, which gives them a chance to keep turnout low (and thus win something, anything) and piss and moan about voter fraud on the Democratic side when, tbh, they're every bit as guilty. They just use laws to keep Republicans in power by redrawing districts and making it impossible for the poor to vote. If you have to choose between taking an hour to take the bus to your polling place, stand in line for an hour, and taking another hour to get back to work, knowing that doing so will cost you $30 of lost wage and that $30 will keep food on the kids' table, would you vote? Or would you stay at work and let the wealthier crowd with cars and paid voting leave be the ones in control of the voter booth? You know how we fix that? Absentee/mail-in voting and online voting. The only people against it are those who don't understand it or who know what it would mean for a certain party.

And while we're at it, all district maps should be required to be reviewed by a bipartisan panel comprised of non-residents of the state they're being drawn in to ensure that it's not the old Corinne Brown snakehead wandering its way through the Democratic areas of NE FL and the Panhandle. Killing the practice of gerrymandering will go a long way towards actually letting the majority vote be what wins the day, not the majority of people who can afford to take several hours to go vote.

Online voting? Are you insane?

You are free to register as an absentee voter the correct way and not lose out on that whopping $30 of missed income you are crying about having to stand in line.

Democrats want to make it as easy as possible for the lazy people they want depending on the government to survive. I get it....
I've been voting by mail for years, mainly because it's so easy.
(05-22-2020, 10:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]This country should have been on vote by mail as the default 50 years ago, and should have moved to online, home voting by default 20 years ago. But Republicans need stuff to whine about, so they require in-person voting, which gives them a chance to keep turnout low (and thus win something, anything) and piss and moan about voter fraud on the Democratic side when, tbh, they're every bit as guilty. They just use laws to keep Republicans in power by redrawing districts and making it impossible for the poor to vote. If you have to choose between taking an hour to take the bus to your polling place, stand in line for an hour, and taking another hour to get back to work, knowing that doing so will cost you $30 of lost wage and that $30 will keep food on the kids' table, would you vote? Or would you stay at work and let the wealthier crowd with cars and paid voting leave be the ones in control of the voter booth? You know how we fix that? Absentee/mail-in voting and online voting. The only people against it are those who don't understand it or who know what it would mean for a certain party.

And while we're at it, all district maps should be required to be reviewed by a bipartisan panel comprised of non-residents of the state they're being drawn in to ensure that it's not the old Corinne Brown snakehead wandering its way through the Democratic areas of NE FL and the Panhandle. Killing the practice of gerrymandering will go a long way towards actually letting the majority vote be what wins the day, not the majority of people who can afford to take several hours to go vote.

So what was Mikey on, and how much did he give (sell?) you?
(05-22-2020, 10:36 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2020, 09:59 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]And that doesn't suggest that the election results might get skewed by 0.6%.

That means that for every election that had an instance of fraud, there were about 200 elections that passed with no incident.

Or that one out of every 200 elections was decided by fraud instead of the voters. Not a good record.


And again: that's only the ones we know about. These are crimes where the victim doesn't know for sure they've even been victimized. What percentage of shoplifters are caught? Unless the store carefully tracks it's inventory it usually doesn't even know it's been robbed.

No elections have been "decided by fraud" in that time period.
If there are 500 questionable ballots, but the margin of victory was 1000 votes, that counts as a possible instance of fraud, but it did not decide the election.
You're doing what people accuse me of doing.  I wrote "an instance of fraud" and you smeared that into "decided by fraud".  Be better.

(05-22-2020, 11:41 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I've been voting by mail for years, mainly because it's so easy.

It is easy and good in Florida.  Other states, not so much.
(05-22-2020, 10:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]This country should have been on vote by mail as the default 50 years ago, and should have moved to online, home voting by default 20 years ago. But Republicans need stuff to whine about, so they require in-person voting, which gives them a chance to keep turnout low (and thus win something, anything) and piss and moan about voter fraud on the Democratic side when, tbh, they're every bit as guilty. They just use laws to keep Republicans in power by redrawing districts and making it impossible for the poor to vote. If you have to choose between taking an hour to take the bus to your polling place, stand in line for an hour, and taking another hour to get back to work, knowing that doing so will cost you $30 of lost wage and that $30 will keep food on the kids' table, would you vote? Or would you stay at work and let the wealthier crowd with cars and paid voting leave be the ones in control of the voter booth? You know how we fix that? Absentee/mail-in voting and online voting. The only people against it are those who don't understand it or who know what it would mean for a certain party.

And while we're at it, all district maps should be required to be reviewed by a bipartisan panel comprised of non-residents of the state they're being drawn in to ensure that it's not the old Corinne Brown snakehead wandering its way through the Democratic areas of NE FL and the Panhandle. Killing the practice of gerrymandering will go a long way towards actually letting the majority vote be what wins the day, not the majority of people who can afford to take several hours to go vote.

Vote by mail is easy in Florida.
The part that can be hard is if you don't have a stable address, it can be hard to register.  It can be hard to get a photo ID initially, also.  And we have a bad habit of kicking you off the rolls if you happen to have a similar name to a known felon.  
But once you're registered, absentee voting is simple in this state.

I agree with you about the gerrymandering.  After recent amendments to the Florida State constitution, the FL supreme court will (rightfully) be playing a bigger role in drawing district lines going forward.
(05-22-2020, 11:34 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2020, 10:53 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]This country should have been on vote by mail as the default 50 years ago, and should have moved to online, home voting by default 20 years ago. But Republicans need stuff to whine about, so they require in-person voting, which gives them a chance to keep turnout low (and thus win something, anything) and piss and moan about voter fraud on the Democratic side when, tbh, they're every bit as guilty. They just use laws to keep Republicans in power by redrawing districts and making it impossible for the poor to vote. If you have to choose between taking an hour to take the bus to your polling place, stand in line for an hour, and taking another hour to get back to work, knowing that doing so will cost you $30 of lost wage and that $30 will keep food on the kids' table, would you vote? Or would you stay at work and let the wealthier crowd with cars and paid voting leave be the ones in control of the voter booth? You know how we fix that? Absentee/mail-in voting and online voting. The only people against it are those who don't understand it or who know what it would mean for a certain party.

And while we're at it, all district maps should be required to be reviewed by a bipartisan panel comprised of non-residents of the state they're being drawn in to ensure that it's not the old Corinne Brown snakehead wandering its way through the Democratic areas of NE FL and the Panhandle. Killing the practice of gerrymandering will go a long way towards actually letting the majority vote be what wins the day, not the majority of people who can afford to take several hours to go vote.

Online voting? Are you insane?

You are free to register as an absentee voter the correct way and not lose out on that whopping $30 of missed income you are crying about having to stand in line.

Democrats want to make it as easy as possible for the lazy people they want depending on the government to survive. I get it....

You're correct, it should be easy, safe and secure as possible for everyone to vote. The RNC apparently feels that way too, just apparently in swing/red states.
So, let me throw this out there and see how it's received. I think the big difference between mail in voting between parties is need. I think the DNC NEEDS mail in voting, because their base has been reluctant to get out and vote. They feel like if they can organize and harvest ballots, that will give them an advantage, and I suspect that's true. I also think this is why Republicans are against it. I don't think Republicans NEED mail in voting, and the few areas where it's been expanded, there are questionable tactics, like in NC. Imo, I don't believe Democrats want mail-in voting because they want to fix the election. However, I do think it's a form of "cheating," for lack of a better word. Democrats are more organized and have been mobilizing their voter base for years, so it won't be hard for them to transition to ballot harvesting. I think Republicans will have a hard time adapting to this method, but they will eventually.

I really don't mind the thought of mail-in voting as a general practice, but I can image how annoying election years are going to become. You're going to have people at your doors all the time, with ballots that are pre-selected. "Just sign here," they'll say. The whole thing has the potential to get burdensome and exploitative. I also think that the more partisan the gatherers become, the more likely it is that we are going to see fraud in the form of missing and forged ballots. You're putting a lot of space between the voter and the box. I think we will see a lot of "mishandling." Even though fraud is not widespread now, when the practice expands, so will the abuse. I think there is a ton of potential for fraud in the future.

What if harvesting can only be done if both major parties are present?
(05-22-2020, 08:01 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]So, let me throw this out there and see how it's received. I think the big difference between mail in voting between parties is need. I think the DNC NEEDS mail in voting, because their base has been reluctant to get out and vote. They feel like if they can organize and harvest ballots, that will give them an advantage, and I suspect that's true. I also think this is why Republicans are against it. I don't think Republicans NEED mail in voting, and the few areas where it's been expanded, there are questionable tactics, like in NC. Imo, I don't believe Democrats want mail-in voting because they want to fix the election. However, I do think it's a form of "cheating," for lack of a better word. Democrats are more organized and have been mobilizing their voter base for years, so it won't be hard for them to transition to ballot harvesting. I think Republicans will have a hard time adapting to this method, but they will eventually.

I really don't mind the thought of mail-in voting as a general practice, but I can image how annoying election years are going to become. You're going to have people at your doors all the time, with ballots that are pre-selected. "Just sign here," they'll say. The whole thing has the potential to get burdensome and exploitative. I also think that the more partisan the gatherers become, the more likely it is that we are going to see fraud in the form of missing and forged ballots. You're putting a lot of space between the voter and the box. I think we will see a lot of "mishandling." Even though fraud is not widespread now, when the practice expands, so will the abuse. I think there is a ton of potential for fraud in the future.

What if harvesting can only be done if both major parties are present?


Historically speaking, high voter turnout correlates with Democrats winning. But 2016 was an exception to that, Republicans basically swept those elections, even though turnout was up compared to 2012. 

It's not like we have elections very often, so the 2016 election could show that the past trend is over, could be an aberration, we won't know for another decade!  Doesn't matter, we get to listen to a bunch of highly motivated thinkers argue about mail in voting, when what they're really concerned about is optimizing voter turnout for their party.

The other part is that Trump is all in on the "Democrats = voter fraud" narrative. Unfortunately it's about 1/4 to 1/3 of us who let anything that dude makes up become the gospel truth.

I share your concerns about ballot harvesters getting more aggressive and less scrupulous over time. I'm more than happy to let California be the guinea pigs for that. Unfortunately, their experiment muddies the water for us. When someone in Missouri is protesting that it should be easier for them to get a mail in ballot, their neighbor might hear that and think that they're talking about California style ballot harvesting when they're really just talking about Florida style absentee ballots.
(05-22-2020, 08:01 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]So, let me throw this out there and see how it's received. I think the big difference between mail in voting between parties is need. I think the DNC NEEDS mail in voting, because their base has been reluctant to get out and vote. They feel like if they can organize and harvest ballots, that will give them an advantage, and I suspect that's true. I also think this is why Republicans are against it. I don't think Republicans NEED mail in voting, and the few areas where it's been expanded, there are questionable tactics, like in NC. Imo, I don't believe Democrats want mail-in voting because they want to fix the election. However, I do think it's a form of "cheating," for lack of a better word. Democrats are more organized and have been mobilizing their voter base for years, so it won't be hard for them to transition to ballot harvesting. I think Republicans will have a hard time adapting to this method, but they will eventually.

I really don't mind the thought of mail-in voting as a general practice, but I can image how annoying election years are going to become. You're going to have people at your doors all the time, with ballots that are pre-selected. "Just sign here," they'll say. The whole thing has the potential to get burdensome and exploitative. I also think that the more partisan the gatherers become, the more likely it is that we are going to see fraud in the form of missing and forged ballots. You're putting a lot of space between the voter and the box. I think we will see a lot of "mishandling." Even though fraud is not widespread now, when the practice expands, so will the abuse. I think there is a ton of potential for fraud in the future.

What if harvesting can only be done if both major parties are present?

The flipside to the narrative you're positing is that Republicans would rather have less people voting - hence why Trump/RNC is "sort of" against it. If what you're saying is true, then more people voting overall equals less of a reality of a 2nd term for Trump. 

The confusing thing is that Republican voters are getting absentee ballot applications in red/swing states, destroying this entire narrative. Clearest example of talking out of both sides of the mouth on this issue I've seen.

I'm 1000% on board with making voting as easy as possible, while being safe & secure at the same time. Expansion of voting capacity should be met with scaled security & safety measures.
I love this conversation.

Democrats need alternative voting methods to cheat and because their voters are lazy.

Republicans dont want turnout because they understand that most people are dumb.
(05-23-2020, 06:31 AM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2020, 08:01 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]So, let me throw this out there and see how it's received. I think the big difference between mail in voting between parties is need. I think the DNC NEEDS mail in voting, because their base has been reluctant to get out and vote. They feel like if they can organize and harvest ballots, that will give them an advantage, and I suspect that's true. I also think this is why Republicans are against it. I don't think Republicans NEED mail in voting, and the few areas where it's been expanded, there are questionable tactics, like in NC. Imo, I don't believe Democrats want mail-in voting because they want to fix the election. However, I do think it's a form of "cheating," for lack of a better word. Democrats are more organized and have been mobilizing their voter base for years, so it won't be hard for them to transition to ballot harvesting. I think Republicans will have a hard time adapting to this method, but they will eventually.

I really don't mind the thought of mail-in voting as a general practice, but I can image how annoying election years are going to become. You're going to have people at your doors all the time, with ballots that are pre-selected. "Just sign here," they'll say. The whole thing has the potential to get burdensome and exploitative. I also think that the more partisan the gatherers become, the more likely it is that we are going to see fraud in the form of missing and forged ballots. You're putting a lot of space between the voter and the box. I think we will see a lot of "mishandling." Even though fraud is not widespread now, when the practice expands, so will the abuse. I think there is a ton of potential for fraud in the future.

What if harvesting can only be done if both major parties are present?

1. The flipside to the narrative you're positing is that Republicans would rather have less people voting - hence why Trump/RNC is "sort of" against it. If what you're saying is true, then more people voting overall equals less of a reality of a 2nd term for Trump. 

2. The confusing thing is that Republican voters are getting absentee ballot applications in red/swing states, destroying this entire narrative. Clearest example of talking out of both sides of the mouth on this issue I've seen.

3. I'm 1000% on board with making voting as easy as possible, while being safe & secure at the same time. Expansion of voting capacity should be met with scaled security & safety measures.

1. This is the wrong point to take from my post. I have a problem with low voter turnout being likened to voter suppression. It's not like Republicans are actively trying to dissuade voters. It is the duty of the candidate to mobilize their base. If the voters are not motivated enough to turn up, they probably shouldn't be voting. What's next? Mandatory voting? Imo, we should not be trying so hard to make people who are disinterested in the political system interested. This is the single greatest contributor to demagoguery and populism in our political system. Democrats literally have created community organizers to go into impoverished communities and teach their community how they have been wronged. I have no problem with this. However, if those people still are not interested, it probably has something to do with the candidate or platform. 

2. I didn't say that more people voting is a guaranteed win for Democrats. I said that Democrats are in the best position currently to take advantage of mail-in voting, so I believe part of their push for mail in votes is because they believe they can capitalize on this strategy. Also, I should take this moment to clarify a few things. There is a difference between mail-in voting and ballot harvesting. I realize my post above conflated the two a bit, but I personally believe this is the end game for Democrats. I shouldn't have used the term interchangeably above without clarifying that I see this as the future of US elections. 

So, I want to step back from that a bit and focus just on mail-in ballots. I am all for absentee voting. If you are unavailable to go to the polls, you should have an alternative way to cast your vote. Full stop. I think MOST Americans are on board with this as a general rule. I, personally, am even open and understanding towards those who would want to make voting easier on everyone by making mail-in votes a standard practice. The problem with mail-in ballots (aside from complications of votes being lost/misplaced for typical reasons), is the issue of anonymity. When mail-in voting becomes the norm, it will become easier for a person to be pressured into voting for a particular candidate, be it by a friend, family member, or political activist. I said democrats are in the best position to exploit this system due to their strong presence as community organizers. Republicans will end up doing something similar (to a completely different demographic, and every election season will turn into who can hustle the most. I do not want to see people going door to door encouraging/pressuring other people to vote for their candidate. The beauty of the ballot box with exceptions for people who are out of state or unable to vote is that it drastic limits someones ability to influence a persons personal conviction. When you step behind the curtain, you can vote for who you'd like. 

I realize that some of that is speculative, but it's not unreasonable. I believe the motivation for the change is not based in a genuine desire for more people to vote, but rather a temporary opportunity to tilt the field. The reward is that more (uninformed) voters vote. The drawback is more demagoguery and invasion of privacy. This is made exponentially worse by ballot harvesting. 

Can you honestly tell me this would be a talking point among the democratic party if they didn't think it was advantageous for them?
I think Democrats might be afraid the Covid-19 virus would deter more Democrats than Republicans from voting.  People don't want to go stand in line or in a crowd during this pandemic.  I wouldn't want to go stand in line this November. 

Democrats also always want to make it easier to vote, and Republicans want to make it harder.   Elections are won by turnout, and even though there are more Democrats than Republicans, Republicans are generally more motivated to go to the polls and vote.  Trump knows that even though his approval rating is under water, his base is highly motivated, and if he can suppress Democratic turnout, he can win.
(05-23-2020, 07:21 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I love this conversation.

Democrats need alternative voting methods to cheat and because their voters are lazy.

Republicans dont want turnout because they understand that most people are dumb.

We send refund checks, census documents, legal documents, and countless other things by mail/online.  Why is voting somehow more likely to be a problem?

If they can [BLEEP] with your vote online, then trust me, they can [BLEEP] with your vote when you use the magic machine in person, too.
(05-25-2020, 11:19 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think Democrats might be afraid the Covid-19 virus would deter more Democrats than Republicans from voting.  People don't want to go stand in line or in a crowd during this pandemic.  I wouldn't want to go stand in line this November. 

Democrats also always want to make it easier to vote, and Republicans want to make it harder.   Elections are won by turnout, and even though there are more Democrats than Republicans, Republicans are generally more motivated to go to the polls and vote.  Trump knows that even though his approval rating is under water, his base is highly motivated, and if he can suppress Democratic turnout, he can win.

I think Republicans just want a legal voting process. I don't feel they are asking too much here.

Then again, I think the Democrats are wrongfully assuming this fraudulent vote by mail campaign will go entirely their way.

(05-25-2020, 11:31 AM)JaguarKick Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-23-2020, 07:21 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I love this conversation.

Democrats need alternative voting methods to cheat and because their voters are lazy.

Republicans dont want turnout because they understand that most people are dumb.

We send refund checks, census documents, legal documents, and countless other things by mail/online.  Why is voting somehow more likely to be a problem?

If they can [BLEEP] with your vote online, then trust me, they can [BLEEP] with your vote when you use the magic machine in person, too.

Refund checks are sent to people who are alive and have a social security number. I am fine with ballots being the same way.
(05-25-2020, 11:19 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think Democrats might be afraid the Covid-19 virus would deter more Democrats than Republicans from voting.  People don't want to go stand in line or in a crowd during this pandemic.  I wouldn't want to go stand in line this November. 

So you haven't been to the grocery store in two months?
(05-25-2020, 12:18 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2020, 11:19 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think Democrats might be afraid the Covid-19 virus would deter more Democrats than Republicans from voting.  People don't want to go stand in line or in a crowd during this pandemic.  I wouldn't want to go stand in line this November. 

So you haven't been to the grocery store in two months?


I have to go to the grocery store.  I don't have to stand in line to vote, because I have the option of voting by mail, as I have been doing for many years.  

Why would I want to stand in line to vote?  It adds to the risk of me catching Covid-19.  I'd rather not do that.
(05-25-2020, 01:49 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2020, 12:18 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]
So you haven't been to the grocery store in two months?


I have to go to the grocery store.  I don't have to stand in line to vote, because I have the option of voting by mail, as I have been doing for many years.  

Why would I want to stand in line to vote?  It adds to the risk of me catching Covid-19.  I'd rather not do that.

You can get groceries delivered to your door.
(05-25-2020, 03:24 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2020, 01:49 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I have to go to the grocery store.  I don't have to stand in line to vote, because I have the option of voting by mail, as I have been doing for many years.  

Why would I want to stand in line to vote?  It adds to the risk of me catching Covid-19.  I'd rather not do that.

You can get groceries delivered to your door.

That is true, but I like to pick out my own groceries.
They uncovered systemic fraud in Harris County, TX.  It was citizens who found the evidence because no government officials were interested.  Democrat candidates were hiring CONVICTED FORGERS to fill out ballots.  They were sending operatives into nursing homes to "help" seniors vote.

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