Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

I don’t care, but the outrage mob will just move onto something else.

(06-09-2020, 09:28 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020, 07:18 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]It took me an embarrassingly long time to get it. Once I did it prompted my grandson to ask me what I kept laughing at.

And now I just got it

I had to think about it a couple minutes even after the left arm comment before I figured out it was a reference to hitlers salute.

(06-09-2020, 06:58 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020, 06:23 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Your "heritage" is that of a failed insurrection that conceded the moral high ground to its opponent? 

Strange thing to fly a flag about. 

Why not the state flag? Is that not historical enough?  If you're comparing it to my neighbor who has a Puerto Rico flag hanging from the mirror of his car, then you'd be flying an American flag or a State of FL flag by comparison. Not a confederate flag.

It's not my heritage.  I wasn't born around here and my home state (New Mexico) had very little impact during The Civil War.

I do have many friends that are multi-generation Floridians that are very proud of their heritage.  Their ancestors fought for what they (back then) believed in and fought honorably.  The Civil War was a very dark time in our nation's history, but it is what it is.  Many fought because their idea and belief is that it was "right".  Many died and shed blood during that conflict.  Whether or not if they were right or wrong, they deserve some dignity and respect.  That's what the statue that was (cowardly) taken down in the middle of the night was commemorating.  It had nothing to do with "oppression" or slavery.

Put yourself in the shoes of a white man living in Florida in 1850 or so and imagine what you think is "right or wrong".  Society's way of thinking back then is nowhere near what it is today.  Fast forward to the 1890's (when the statue was built and erected) and think about what people were remembering.  It was NOT about slavery.  It was about loved ones that fell during that horrific time in our nation's history.

That statue stood there over a hundred years before some "woke" people decided that it was "offensive".  There is a reason why so many landmarks, roads and schools around this city are named what they are named.  It's all about the history.

In my opinion people that find monuments, landmarks, names of schools, etc. "offensive" or "repressive" today are living in the past.  The whole "white privilege" thing is a big myth.

When we start tearing down monuments and treasures from the past, where will it end?  In my opinion doing so is really no different than what the Taliban did.  I think we as a country are better than that.

People have a right to be proud of their heritage, but they need to be a little more selective about what part of their heritage they're proud of.  Confederate soldiers were fighting for a government that seceded from the United States because they thought slavery was under threat from abolitionists in the North.   The proof of this is in the Articles of Secession where the Southern states stated their reasons for seceding.  Articles of Secession are declarations of independence.  Five of the most important states that made up the confederacy passed and published Articles of Secession.  

You can read them here: 

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prima...ing-states

Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove."

And here is Alexander Stevens' speech about secession:  

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/libr...ne-speech/

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

I'm a southerner, and I'm descended from southerners, some of whom fought in the Confederate armies.  But that part of my heritage, the part that includes slavery and fighting to preserve slavery, is not something I would be proud of, and I certainly don't think we should have monuments to the army that fought to preserve slavery.  

"...that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse." Ulysses S Grant

(06-09-2020, 06:56 PM)Sammy Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020, 12:28 PM)Sammy Wrote: [ -> ]Did you know in Germany people with only one arm aren't allowed to ride a rollercoaster.

I am shocked it went right over everyone's head. Or, I guess it wasn't really that funny. I hate you people sometimes.

I snort larfed. It was painful.

(06-09-2020, 10:51 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020, 10:38 AM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]Erasing History...... Those that FAIL to LEARN from history are DOOMED to repeat it

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Lee didn't own slaves during the war, Unlike Union General U.S. Grant where ot took a constitutional amendment before he freed his slaves

Don't give facts when liberals are arguing, their mind can't handle it unless the fact backs their point up. Next you will tell them the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and their head may explode.

Lol, you really are a fool.

(06-10-2020, 06:36 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020, 06:58 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]It's not my heritage.  I wasn't born around here and my home state (New Mexico) had very little impact during The Civil War.

I do have many friends that are multi-generation Floridians that are very proud of their heritage.  Their ancestors fought for what they (back then) believed in and fought honorably.  The Civil War was a very dark time in our nation's history, but it is what it is.  Many fought because their idea and belief is that it was "right".  Many died and shed blood during that conflict.  Whether or not if they were right or wrong, they deserve some dignity and respect.  That's what the statue that was (cowardly) taken down in the middle of the night was commemorating.  It had nothing to do with "oppression" or slavery.

Put yourself in the shoes of a white man living in Florida in 1850 or so and imagine what you think is "right or wrong".  Society's way of thinking back then is nowhere near what it is today.  Fast forward to the 1890's (when the statue was built and erected) and think about what people were remembering.  It was NOT about slavery.  It was about loved ones that fell during that horrific time in our nation's history.

That statue stood there over a hundred years before some "woke" people decided that it was "offensive".  There is a reason why so many landmarks, roads and schools around this city are named what they are named.  It's all about the history.

In my opinion people that find monuments, landmarks, names of schools, etc. "offensive" or "repressive" today are living in the past.  The whole "white privilege" thing is a big myth.

When we start tearing down monuments and treasures from the past, where will it end?  In my opinion doing so is really no different than what the Taliban did.  I think we as a country are better than that.

People have a right to be proud of their heritage, but they need to be a little more selective about what part of their heritage they're proud of.  Confederate soldiers were fighting for a government that seceded from the United States because they thought slavery was under threat from abolitionists in the North.   The proof of this is in the Articles of Secession where the Southern states stated their reasons for seceding.  Articles of Secession are declarations of independence.  Five of the most important states that made up the confederacy passed and published Articles of Secession.  

You can read them here: 

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prima...ing-states

Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove."

And here is Alexander Stevens' speech about secession:  

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/libr...ne-speech/

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

I'm a southerner, and I'm descended from southerners, some of whom fought in the Confederate armies.  But that part of my heritage, the part that includes slavery and fighting to preserve slavery, is not something I would be proud of, and I certainly don't think we should have monuments to the army that fought to preserve slavery.  

"...that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse." Ulysses S Grant

Facts.

: “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell from 1984

(06-10-2020, 01:18 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]: “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell from 1984

And history is written by the victors...

I've got land near Alexander Stephens House and Park. What I find hilarious is it's surrounded by well...the type he was above.

(06-10-2020, 01:18 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]: “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell from 1984

What did Orwell have to say about mass surveillance and constant war in that book?

(06-10-2020, 06:01 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-10-2020, 01:18 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]: “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell from 1984

What did Orwell have to say about mass surveillance and constant war in that book?

 
Oh that man was a prophet he nailed the future it’s just happening slower than he predicted

Another thing I personally don't care about. The other being the confederate flag/nascar thing. I have friends who are pretty put out by the flag/nascar thing and I don't get it.

I was born in CO and raised in FL by parents/stepparents who were not from the south (CO, AZ & RI) so I was not raised with "southern pride". I never cared or paid attention to the confederate flag or statues or names of schools. That stuff was not important to us growing up and it's not important to me now.

My concern is the freedom being taken away from people who want to display the flag. Who cares if they want to paint a target on their house/vehicle/clothing? Because that's what it is now. If they're adult enough to display it then they are adult enough to deal with possible consequences. At least they have a choice.

Taking away all of this stuff doesn't teach any lessons or change anyone's minds, it just pisses them off. It's not going to make society better because it changes nothing. I suppose these things being gone will make folks feel better until they find something else to be angry about. I tell my Christian friends, you can't legislate morality, people have to want to do the right thing. The same applies here.

There is a reason why the concentration camps in Germany have not been torn down. They serve as a history lesson and reminder of a thing that should never happen again. Having visited Dachau while living in Germany I can assure you that is the feeling you have while there. We can choose to see flags, statues and school names the same way. Or we can just burn it all to the ground.

Not really the same thing. Won't find any statues of Hitler and senior Nazis. Statues are built to immortalise the person.

Likewise I've been to the Killing fields in Cambodia, doesn't mean there should be a Pol pot statue to enrich the history.

(06-11-2020, 12:06 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Another thing I personally don't care about. The other being the confederate flag/nascar thing. I have friends who are pretty put out by the flag/nascar thing and I don't get it.

I was born in CO and raised in FL by parents/stepparents who were not from the south (CO, AZ & RI) so I was not raised with "southern pride". I never cared or paid attention to the confederate flag or statues or names of schools. That stuff was not important to us growing up and it's not important to me now.

My concern is the freedom being taken away from people who want to display the flag. Who cares if they want to paint a target on their house/vehicle/clothing? Because that's what it is now. If they're adult enough to display it then they are adult enough to deal with possible consequences. At least they have a choice.

Taking away all of this stuff doesn't teach any lessons or change anyone's minds, it just pisses them off. It's not going to make society better because it changes nothing. I suppose these things being gone will make folks feel better until they find something else to be angry about. I tell my Christian friends, you can't legislate morality, people have to want to do the right thing. The same applies here.

There is a reason why the concentration camps in Germany have not been torn down. They serve as a history lesson and reminder of a thing that should never happen again. Having visited Dachau while living in Germany I can assure you that is the feeling you have while there. We can choose to see flags, statues and school names the same way. Or we can just burn it all to the ground.

The huge difference is that places like Auschwitz are kept as a somber reminder of the evils that humans can do to one another. That is a stark contrast to many places in the US. I lived in Charleston, SC for a couple years, and the whole city is set up as a shrine for the Confederacy. Market Street in Charleston was the main slave market in the main slave trading city in America. 40% of slaves that came to America came through Charleston. I hope we can all agree that slavery is one of the greatest tragedies of history. Market Street was where these human beings, stolen from their own land, were then sold like animals into forced labor. And yet Market Street is now the lively party area of town, lined with bars and restaurants catering to predominantly white tourists having a great time in the "holy city". In the middle of the street lies the remains of the original slave market, where you will typically find old black ladies weaving baskets to sell to the tourists. At the top of the street, raised up high so it literally looms over everything, is the 'Daughters of the Confederacy' museum. The whole city is a concrete metaphor for the fact that, even though the south lost the civil war, they wanted to remind everybody who still had the power, and that they weren't going to let it go easily. These things matter, and anyone who truly wants to live in an America where race is no longer an issue needs to confront these things directly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/Je...e=Homepage

Good God, I had no idea Richmond had a statue of Jefferson Davis. That is ridiculous!

Now it’s not just confederate monuments that’s the problem it’s an attempt to erase history

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/..._down.html

(06-11-2020, 09:13 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/12...80576?s=20

Good.

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(06-11-2020, 09:48 AM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]Now it’s not just confederate monuments that’s the problem it’s an attempt to erase history

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/..._down.html

History is for museums.

(06-11-2020, 09:48 AM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]Now it’s not just confederate monuments that’s the problem it’s an attempt to erase history

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/..._down.html

All these BLM folks are just cannon fodder for the Hard Left political groups financing them. Scratch an activist and they bleed Red Tyranny, same as the Watermelon Environmentalists.

(06-11-2020, 09:50 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-11-2020, 09:48 AM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]Now it’s not just confederate monuments that’s the problem it’s an attempt to erase history

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/..._down.html

All these BLM folks are just cannon fodder for the Hard Left political groups financing them. Scratch an activist and they bleed Red Tyranny.

You've been indoctrinated by fear propagandists if you actually believe that.

(06-11-2020, 09:48 AM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]Now it’s not just confederate monuments that’s the problem it’s an attempt to erase history

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/..._down.html

They're not "erasing history."  They're removing monuments they don't want.