(10-29-2020, 02:54 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ] (10-28-2020, 10:12 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]This according to a BBC article: The bolded description contradicts his actions that have led to repeated arrests, mental evals and treatment and jail time. I get that he was bipolar and that will jack you up even when you're being treated, but he was no homebody. Should he have been tazed rather than shot? Yes, and I'm sure Philly PD will address the issue of why their officers didn't carry tazers. I've seen the crazy that bipolar can bring and it's quite possible the officers felt threatened not by just the knife but by his aggressive manner. I guess we'll see if they release the bodycam footage.
Who was Walter Wallace?
Mr Wallace was an aspiring rapper, and often recorded songs on issues including gun and police violence and racial injustice, according to relatives and neighbours, who described him as a "quiet, family man".
The Inquirer reported he was a father of eight who had been in and out of court throughout his adult life. He was awaiting trial for allegedly making threats, but this had been delayed repeatedly because of the coronavirus pandemic.
He pleaded guilty to robbery, assault and possessing an instrument of crime in 2017 after kicking down a woman's door and putting a gun to her head, Philadelphia's ABC affiliate WPVI reports. He was sentenced to 11-23 months behind bars, with a judge requiring mental health supervision.
In 2013, he pleaded guilty to assault and resisting arrest after punching a police officer in the face, the broadcaster reported, saying that a judge had ordered him to undergo psychiatric evaluation and treatment.
"I do know that he was on a regimen of lithium and that says to me he was under a doctor's care," the family lawyer said after the shooting, citing a medicine used in the treatment for conditions including bipolar disorder.
They said on court TV live that due to budget cuts 2/3rds of the Philadelphia police force do not have tazers.. You can't make this [BLEEP] up. This is what happens when you defund the police. We should be giving them more tools in their toolbelt.. Preferably more less lethal options. (it's 2020, new technology needs to be created. These cops didn't even have a less lethal option, before they pulled their sidearm.. That's ridiculous, how do we expect these people to do their jobs if we aren't even properly funding/supplying them. Think about it, if those Cops just had tazers, that guy might still be alive right now. Defunding the police will only further cost lives. It'll be a "perp gets shot and killed.. mass riot" never ending cycle.
Joe Biden says cops should just shoot them in the legs. Is it any wonder he has almost no endorsements from police organizations.
(10-28-2020, 09:41 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]So now they are rooting and looting in Philly in defense of a black guy who tried to attack cops with a knife and was shot and killed?
When a black guy gets shot, nobody cares what he was doing.
When a white guy gets shot, nobody cares.
I watched a little bit of Tucker Carlson’s show last night, mainly because I can only take him in small doses. Some of his monologues are spot on regardless of political stripe. But I digress.
Anyway, he showed a clip of a member of the state media asking Joe for his reaction to the looting, er, protests in Philadelphia after the police shot “another unarmed black man”.
Journalism is truly dead in the United States.
(10-29-2020, 02:54 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ] (10-28-2020, 10:12 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]This according to a BBC article: The bolded description contradicts his actions that have led to repeated arrests, mental evals and treatment and jail time. I get that he was bipolar and that will jack you up even when you're being treated, but he was no homebody. Should he have been tazed rather than shot? Yes, and I'm sure Philly PD will address the issue of why their officers didn't carry tazers. I've seen the crazy that bipolar can bring and it's quite possible the officers felt threatened not by just the knife but by his aggressive manner. I guess we'll see if they release the bodycam footage.
Who was Walter Wallace?
Mr Wallace was an aspiring rapper, and often recorded songs on issues including gun and police violence and racial injustice, according to relatives and neighbours, who described him as a "quiet, family man".
The Inquirer reported he was a father of eight who had been in and out of court throughout his adult life. He was awaiting trial for allegedly making threats, but this had been delayed repeatedly because of the coronavirus pandemic.
He pleaded guilty to robbery, assault and possessing an instrument of crime in 2017 after kicking down a woman's door and putting a gun to her head, Philadelphia's ABC affiliate WPVI reports. He was sentenced to 11-23 months behind bars, with a judge requiring mental health supervision.
In 2013, he pleaded guilty to assault and resisting arrest after punching a police officer in the face, the broadcaster reported, saying that a judge had ordered him to undergo psychiatric evaluation and treatment.
"I do know that he was on a regimen of lithium and that says to me he was under a doctor's care," the family lawyer said after the shooting, citing a medicine used in the treatment for conditions including bipolar disorder.
They said on court TV live that due to budget cuts 2/3rds of the Philadelphia police force do not have tazers.. You can't make this [BLEEP] up. This is what happens when you defund the police. We should be giving them more tools in their toolbelt.. Preferably more less lethal options. (it's 2020, new technology needs to be created. These cops didn't even have a less lethal option, before they pulled their sidearm.. That's ridiculous, how do we expect these people to do their jobs if we aren't even properly funding/supplying them. Think about it, if those Cops just had tazers, that guy might still be alive right now. Defunding the police will only further cost lives. It'll be a "perp gets shot and killed.. mass riot" never ending cycle.
I agree it would be nice if more cops in Philly had tazers.
I would add, I don't know if it applies to this particular case, but a lot of these situations call for de-escalation as well as less lethal options. Just because the guy has a knife out and isn't complying with verbal orders, doesn't mean he's a second away from stabbing someone.
Do any of those cops realize they could just shoot the attacker in the leg?
(10-29-2020, 01:29 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Do any of those cops realize they could just shoot the attacker in the leg?
That's not how they're trained.. Deadly force is exactly what it implies, they're trained if they have to pull their firearm to shoot center mass. Maybe training needs to be changed.
(10-29-2020, 12:44 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 02:54 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]They said on court TV live that due to budget cuts 2/3rds of the Philadelphia police force do not have tazers.. You can't make this [BLEEP] up. This is what happens when you defund the police. We should be giving them more tools in their toolbelt.. Preferably more less lethal options. (it's 2020, new technology needs to be created. These cops didn't even have a less lethal option, before they pulled their sidearm.. That's ridiculous, how do we expect these people to do their jobs if we aren't even properly funding/supplying them. Think about it, if those Cops just had tazers, that guy might still be alive right now. Defunding the police will only further cost lives. It'll be a "perp gets shot and killed.. mass riot" never ending cycle.
I agree it would be nice if more cops in Philly had tazers.
I would add, I don't know if it applies to this particular case, but a lot of these situations call for de-escalation as well as less lethal options. Just because the guy has a knife out and isn't complying with verbal orders, doesn't mean he's a second away from stabbing someone.
Really.. I guess you haven't seen the Chicago body cams that were recently released.. and these officers had tasers and deployed them twice. (Reason why I want new less lethal weapons developed, tasers are WAY too inconsistently effective)
Less than 5 seconds after recovering from the taser he's on his feet, closes ground, and is stabbing a female police officer (thank God for her vest..atleast they still have those, for now) but they don't show that on the news. Doesn't fit their narrative.
(10-29-2020, 12:44 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 02:54 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]They said on court TV live that due to budget cuts 2/3rds of the Philadelphia police force do not have tazers.. You can't make this [BLEEP] up. This is what happens when you defund the police. We should be giving them more tools in their toolbelt.. Preferably more less lethal options. (it's 2020, new technology needs to be created. These cops didn't even have a less lethal option, before they pulled their sidearm.. That's ridiculous, how do we expect these people to do their jobs if we aren't even properly funding/supplying them. Think about it, if those Cops just had tazers, that guy might still be alive right now. Defunding the police will only further cost lives. It'll be a "perp gets shot and killed.. mass riot" never ending cycle.
I agree it would be nice if more cops in Philly had tazers.
I would add, I don't know if it applies to this particular case, but a lot of these situations call for de-escalation as well as less lethal options. Just because the guy has a knife out and isn't complying with verbal orders, doesn't mean he's a second away from stabbing someone.
Deescalation is nice if there is time or you're dealing with a reasonably rational person. This guy was bipolar. Mental illness can make people
extremely unpredictable and you can't always reason with them. People on drugs are not in their right mind and don't understand or listen to reason either. These folks are in a different category than the rational guy not complying with police because he's "just a black man minding my own business," or does something stupid and gets shot and killed in the process.
(10-29-2020, 01:29 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Do any of those cops realize they could just shoot the attacker in the leg?
(10-29-2020, 02:55 PM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 01:29 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Do any of those cops realize they could just shoot the attacker in the leg?
That's not how they're trained.. Deadly force is exactly what it implies, they're trained if they have to pull their firearm to shoot center mass. Maybe training needs to be changed.
I know it was a joke, but if they shot someone in the leg they have to take care of them until they die. It's also hard to shoot someone moving and cops already are terrible shots. That's why they double tap to center mass because they will most likely miss the 1st shot.
For tasers, they started to be wide spread, but with the injuries and deaths that were occurring they stopped being used because they weren't effective enough. If you have a chance of being sued, you are better off ending the threat rather than chancing they have a heart issue or something else and you may still have to shot them.
(10-29-2020, 03:23 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 01:29 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Do any of those cops realize they could just shoot the attacker in the leg?
(10-29-2020, 02:55 PM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]That's not how they're trained.. Deadly force is exactly what it implies, they're trained if they have to pull their firearm to shoot center mass. Maybe training needs to be changed.
I know it was a joke, but if they shot someone in the leg they have to take care of them until they die. It's also hard to shoot someone moving and cops already are terrible shots. That's why they double tap to center mass because they will most likely miss the 1st shot.
For tasers, they started to be wide spread, but with the injuries and deaths that were occurring they stopped being used because they weren't effective enough. If you have a chance of being sued, you are better off ending the threat rather than chancing they have a heart issue or something else and you may still have to shot them.
yep, that's why "non lethals" are now referred to as "less lethal weapons". It's legal CYA terminology lol.
anyways, the taser needs to be replaced with a better more effective option. That needs to happen now.
(10-29-2020, 01:24 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 12:44 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I agree it would be nice if more cops in Philly had tazers.
I would add, I don't know if it applies to this particular case, but a lot of these situations call for de-escalation as well as less lethal options. Just because the guy has a knife out and isn't complying with verbal orders, doesn't mean he's a second away from stabbing someone.
https://youtu.be/js0haocH4-o
Most people cops encounter on the streets are not martial arts experts. Most people cops encounter just want to get away, or harm someone else. Very few have any intent to harm a cop.
Training videos like this are presenting risks that are highly unusual to shape everyday responses. That's wrong.
(10-29-2020, 03:23 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 12:44 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I agree it would be nice if more cops in Philly had tazers.
I would add, I don't know if it applies to this particular case, but a lot of these situations call for de-escalation as well as less lethal options. Just because the guy has a knife out and isn't complying with verbal orders, doesn't mean he's a second away from stabbing someone.
Deescalation is nice if there is time or you're dealing with a reasonably rational person. This guy was bipolar. Mental illness can make people extremely unpredictable and you can't always reason with them. People on drugs are not in their right mind and don't understand or listen to reason either. These folks are in a different category than the rational guy not complying with police because he's "just a black man minding my own business," or does something stupid and gets shot and killed in the process.
Are you saying you have more sympathy with "these folks" than others, or less?
(10-29-2020, 03:41 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 01:24 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]https://youtu.be/js0haocH4-o
Most people cops encounter on the streets are not martial arts experts. Most people cops encounter just want to get away, or harm someone else. Very few have any intent to harm a cop.
Training videos like this are presenting risks that are highly unusual to shape everyday responses. That's wrong.
Drawing on that vast wealth of experience again are we?
(10-29-2020, 03:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 03:41 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Most people cops encounter on the streets are not martial arts experts. Most people cops encounter just want to get away, or harm someone else. Very few have any intent to harm a cop.
Training videos like this are presenting risks that are highly unusual to shape everyday responses. That's wrong.
Drawing on that vast wealth of experience again are we?
I just posted body cam footage of a perp getting off the ground and repeatedly stabbing a cop in a matter of seconds and he doesn't even comment on it.. Guess that perp was a martial arts expert?
.gif "Laughing")
(10-29-2020, 07:50 PM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 03:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Drawing on that vast wealth of experience again are we?
I just posted body cam footage of a perp getting off the ground and repeatedly stabbing a cop in a matter of seconds and he doesn't even comment on it.. Guess that perp was a martial arts expert?
No, he obviously wasn't.
Let's break that down.
He gets approached by two officers and does not comply with their order to put his hands up. Then he decided to casually walk between two officers shouting orders at him while holding a big knife.
He gets tazed as he passes between them, but still holds the knife. After he gets up, now he has violent intent to harm the officer who taxes him. He charges her, knife out. The officer who our camera is attached to eventually shoots him, but it looks like the other officer takes one maybe two stab sounds before the perp is finally down from bullet wounds. Was the other officer OK? Looked like she was going to need medical attention but would be fine.
This guy obviously deserved to get shot and killed.
You're saying, this shows tazers don't work, and yeah it does show that. Like you, I hope for a better option than a razer to be developed. A new kind of pepper sprays might be it.
But the video also shows that cops can get hurt when they wait until there's an undeniable and immediate threat before firing their guns.
When cops do their jobs right, they get hurt sometimes. If they are willing to expose themselves to danger, they are heroes. If they kill at the first hint of danger, they are cowards.
(10-29-2020, 09:18 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2020, 07:50 PM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]I just posted body cam footage of a perp getting off the ground and repeatedly stabbing a cop in a matter of seconds and he doesn't even comment on it.. Guess that perp was a martial arts expert?
No, he obviously wasn't.
Let's break that down.
He gets approached by two officers and does not comply with their order to put his hands up. Then he decided to casually walk between two officers shouting orders at him while holding a big knife.
He gets tazed as he passes between them, but still holds the knife. After he gets up, now he has violent intent to harm the officer who taxes him. He charges her, knife out. The officer who our camera is attached to eventually shoots him, but it looks like the other officer takes one maybe two stab sounds before the perp is finally down from bullet wounds. Was the other officer OK? Looked like she was going to need medical attention but would be fine.
This guy obviously deserved to get shot and killed.
You're saying, this shows tazers don't work, and yeah it does show that. Like you, I hope for a better option than a razer to be developed. A new kind of pepper sprays might be it.
But the video also shows that cops can get hurt when they wait until there's an undeniable and immediate threat before firing their guns.
When cops do their jobs right, they get hurt sometimes. If they are willing to expose themselves to danger, they are heroes. If they kill at the first hint of danger, they are cowards.
sorry, but that's absolutely [BLEEP]. So you can't shoot a maniac until he stabs you?! Cops don't want to die heroes.. They simply want to do their jobs and go home safe to their families, just like everyone else in the world.
How about people comply with officers and people like you stop jumping through hoops denying facts, creating excuses, and victim martyrs for those who don't. These people AREN'T victims.