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Dude. I'm fine with labeling this insurrection. Technically all of these riots are insurrection, so not sure why you keep trying to split hairs.

(01-08-2021, 12:51 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

As JIB has said many times, “Two in the chest, one in the head.”

I don't intend to Monday morning QB the actions of a cop, I was just genuinely asking if there was another way. From the video I saw, it appeared he had his pistol aimed aimed in the same spot with the intention to fire where he did. I feel sorry for the guy. He will deal with PTSD for the rest of his life over this.

(01-08-2021, 12:15 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:02 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]We've seen plenty of examples of domestic terrorism in the past year from right and left oriented groups and individuals alike. 

Most sane folks condemn those who cross the line of protesting over to rioting and even terrorism regardless of those rioters political affiliation. 

The Capitol riots involved elements that one could easily encompass to identify the act as terrorism, but why all the semantics?  Call it whatever you want. 
Storming a session that serves to certify an election result and killing/hospitalizing police in the process is a despicable act that should never have been encouraged or protected against so casually. 

Comparing this act to others seems pretty pointless to me right now.

People love hyperbole, bro. It's human nature. I try to discount it as much as possible except when it starts to offend my sensibility. However, comparing this act to others is entirely relevant, if only to show that the left doesn't have any standards. Either protests can be rowdy and violent or they can't. Which is it? I say they can't. That's consistent. What do you say? What does the MSM say? What do other politicians say? Show me the people who are consistent with their record on these positions, and we will be able to differentiate those with values from those who put power and ideology over anything else.

Is my condemnation of violent protest really unclear to you?  

I vehemently condemn it.  Useless loss of life is a big deal to me regardless of the political tilt of the deceased. 

Could I dream up some dystopian scenario wherein non-peaceful protest might be justified to protect our democracy or families? Maybe there is something to that, but we haven't/aren't experiencing that.

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

Who cares? She's a criminal. Shoot all criminals wherever you want. You break the law, you pay the price. She was trying to break through a window. It's no different than someone trying to break into my house. Do you think I'm intentionally going to aim for their leg? No. I'm going for a kill shot. I don't know if they are armed and I'm not taking any chances.

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

Who cares? She's a criminal. Shoot all criminals wherever you want. You break the law, you pay the price. She was trying to break through a window. It's no different than someone trying to break into my house. Do you think I'm intentionally going to aim for their leg? No. I'm going for a kill shot. I don't know if they are armed and I'm not taking any chances.

Cops are held to higher standards than us.

So while we just have to feel there's a threat on our lives... they have to have discernable proof of it.

Saying that, I haven't seen the video so I have no opinion on it

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

Who cares? She's a criminal. Shoot all criminals wherever you want. You break the law, you pay the price. She was trying to break through a window. It's no different than someone trying to break into my house. Do you think I'm intentionally going to aim for their leg? No. I'm going for a kill shot. I don't know if they are armed and I'm not taking any chances.

Where do you stand on the Kyle Rittenhouse situation?

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

There are a bunch of theories coming from both sides. He definitely didn't need to shoot and did take a second aim. A BLM leader was there to film it. People are saying Trump white hat team had infiltrated BLM and they used the protest to take laptops. Others are using it to say all Trump people are terrible and need to be purged and sent to reeducation camps or jail.

It is crazy at this point because of all the different spin and no one trusts the other side.

(01-08-2021, 12:59 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Who cares? She's a criminal. Shoot all criminals wherever you want. You break the law, you pay the price. She was trying to break through a window. It's no different than someone trying to break into my house. Do you think I'm intentionally going to aim for their leg? No. I'm going for a kill shot. I don't know if they are armed and I'm not taking any chances.

Cops are held to higher standards than us.

So while we just have to feel there's a threat on our lives... they have to have discernable proof of it.

Saying that, I haven't seen the video so I have no opinion on it

You can google it. I found it in a matter of seconds.

(01-08-2021, 01:00 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Who cares? She's a criminal. Shoot all criminals wherever you want. You break the law, you pay the price. She was trying to break through a window. It's no different than someone trying to break into my house. Do you think I'm intentionally going to aim for their leg? No. I'm going for a kill shot. I don't know if they are armed and I'm not taking any chances.

Where do you stand on the Kyle Rittenhouse situation?

Apples and oranges. He drove out of state looking for a confrontation. He drove there with a gun, in an area he had no business being in. He was trying to play G.I. Joe. He should be jailed. 

With that said, I have been on the side of the cops in all of the shootings which led to rioting. The only one I could not justify was the choke hold one. Just like the D.C. cop who killed Babbit, he was doing his job and there was an actual threat where he had no clue if anyone had weapons. Cops deal with a lot and have to be on guard 24/7. Their lives and the lives of others are always at risk. They have to make split second decisions to neutralize threats. I admire 99.9% of them and would never want their jobs.

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:15 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]People love hyperbole, bro. It's human nature. I try to discount it as much as possible except when it starts to offend my sensibility. However, comparing this act to others is entirely relevant, if only to show that the left doesn't have any standards. Either protests can be rowdy and violent or they can't. Which is it? I say they can't. That's consistent. What do you say? What does the MSM say? What do other politicians say? Show me the people who are consistent with their record on these positions, and we will be able to differentiate those with values from those who put power and ideology over anything else.

Is my condemnation of violent protest really unclear to you?  

I vehemently condemn it.  Useless loss of life is a big deal to me regardless of the political tilt of the deceased. 

Could I dream up some dystopian scenario wherein non-peaceful protest might be justified to protect our democracy or families? Maybe there is something to that, but we haven't/aren't experiencing that.

You're missing the point. I'm glad you condemn it. That seemed clear to me, and I almost inserted a caveat at that part of my post, but figured you'd get the point. If you are consistent in your response, you have values that supersede your political ideology. I'm asking you to look at the people who are not consistent, which is most of the left and the MSM.

A few points that I would like to make.

First of all, a police officer is trained to "stop the action" and NEVER "shoot to kill".  In most cases two to the torso one to the head is the correct method in a life threatening situation.

With that being said and after watching the video and hearing an eye witness account, it's hard to say whether or not the officer was justified in the shooting.  Did she have a weapon or make a threatening gesture?  I couldn't tell.  According to the eye witness she along with the others were repeatedly told to get back/stay back.  She failed to comply.  Again without knowing all of the facts and the evidence and based on the video that I saw I don't know if the shooting was justified or if it was a case of excessive force.

It is unfortunate that she lost her life, but she made the choice to break the law and not follow police orders.

(01-08-2021, 12:12 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:03 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I am wondering..

The cop clearly aimed for a head shot. He had the firearm aimed at her for a good period of time. Was there a less lethal shot he could have taken?

The police officers had cordoned of an area where members of Congress were being sheltered and protected from a rioting mob of violent trespassers. 

She attempted to enter that cordoned area through a broken window. 

That's all you need to know. Would a less lethal shot have been preferred? Sure. Do you know where the officer was aiming? No. 

Wondering where all the folks that so fervently promoted and defended deadly force against rioters and looters earlier this year are right now? This is a clear example of the action they championed repeatedly.

I am one of those people, but there is a big difference here.  The rioting a looting that happened this last year had most of the people involved attacking law enforcement, burning businesses, destroying property, etc.  Their actions were clearly destructive and a threat to life.

The protest at the Capitol was the opposite as most of the people there were simply exercising their 1st Amendment right.  It was an extremely small percentage of the people there that were violent and/or destructive.

I'm not saying that breaking into the Capitol building was the right thing to do and I am not saying that the small handful of people there that were violent were innocent.  Far from it.  They broke the law, caused destruction, etc. and should pay the price for it.  All that I am saying is that this was a protest that got out of hand.  What we saw in many cases last year was outright rioting, looting, vandalism, etc.

(01-08-2021, 01:46 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:12 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]The police officers had cordoned of an area where members of Congress were being sheltered and protected from a rioting mob of violent trespassers. 

She attempted to enter that cordoned area through a broken window. 

That's all you need to know. Would a less lethal shot have been preferred? Sure. Do you know where the officer was aiming? No. 

Wondering where all the folks that so fervently promoted and defended deadly force against rioters and looters earlier this year are right now? This is a clear example of the action they championed repeatedly.

I am one of those people, but there is a big difference here.  The rioting a looting that happened this last year had most of the people involved attacking law enforcement, burning businesses, destroying property, etc.  Their actions were clearly destructive and a threat to life.

The protest at the Capitol was the opposite as most of the people there were simply exercising their 1st Amendment right.  It was an extremely small percentage of the people there that were violent and/or destructive.

I'm not saying that breaking into the Capitol building was the right thing to do and I am not saying that the small handful of people there that were violent were innocent.  Far from it.  They broke the law, caused destruction, etc. and should pay the price for it.  All that I am saying is that this was a protest that got out of hand.  What we saw in many cases last year was outright rioting, looting, vandalism, etc.

JIB. 

They killed a cop, injured 13 other cops, destroyed federal property, and planted pipe bombs for chrissake.  

You are severely attempting to gloss over the actions of these violent trespassing criminals. 

What percentage of them were "peaceful" felons?   80%  85%   94.3%?  

Who gives a [BLEEP]?  
They became violent rioters when they crossed a guarded threshold and entered a federal building by force.

(01-08-2021, 01:28 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 12:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Is my condemnation of violent protest really unclear to you?  

I vehemently condemn it.  Useless loss of life is a big deal to me regardless of the political tilt of the deceased. 

Could I dream up some dystopian scenario wherein non-peaceful protest might be justified to protect our democracy or families? Maybe there is something to that, but we haven't/aren't experiencing that.

You're missing the point. I'm glad you condemn it. That seemed clear to me, and I almost inserted a caveat at that part of my post, but figured you'd get the point. If you are consistent in your response, you have values that supersede your political ideology. I'm asking you to look at the people who are not consistent, which is most of the left and the MSM.

People from all over the spectrum are inconsistent about their responses to many things, have wavering agendas, and can be vague and unclear about general principles of basic morality. 

If you want to broad stroke one "side" or the other as being worse about this, go for it. Seems like a futile exercise to me. I'm completely over the left vs right mud flinging. It's not doing anything to help and we need help IMO. 
We are a very divided nation and yes, the media, mainstream and otherwise, are very complicit in influencing this outcome. 

Yes, I do have principles that supercede ideology and I live that every day in the relationships I foster with countless friends, family members and colleagues who have a dissenting opinion to mine politically.

Sure. We all agree with you, dude. Even JIB says shouldn't have been there and took a risk. He says she should have been complying with orders and she wasn't. He called them criminals. No one here should waste another second trying to argue if this shooting was justified. The point, in case people forgot, is to point out the BLATANT hypocrisy of the left. That is all. NYC, can you not see the double standard from the left?

Also, side note. Went looking for an article about how the cop died. Can't find one that says what he died from. Bet it was Covid. I reserve the right to change my mind when the press can actually uncover and report what killed the guy.

---

You posted a second before me. The hypocrisy is important. It's important to get after both sides for it. It's how you know who in principled and who is power hungry. Sometimes distinctions matter. In this case, it doesn't, because everyone knows that if it happened in reverse, the damage would have been far worse, and the media and politicians would have had completely different responses.

(01-08-2021, 02:28 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Sure. We all agree with you, dude. Even JIB says shouldn't have been there and took a risk. He says she should have been complying with orders and she wasn't. He called them criminals. No one here should waste another second trying to argue if this shooting was justified. The point, in case people forgot, is to point out the BLATANT hypocrisy of the left. That is all. NYC, can you not see the double standard from the left?

Also, side note. Went looking for an article about how the cop died. Can't find one that says what he died from. Bet it was Covid. I reserve the right to change my mind when the press can actually uncover and report what killed the guy.

---

You posted a second before me. The hypocrisy is important. It's important to get after both sides for it. It's how you know who in principled and who is power hungry. Sometimes distinctions matter. In this case, it doesn't, because everyone knows that if it happened in reverse, the damage would have been far worse, and the media and politicians would have had completely different responses.

I think you have an inflated perception of the hypocrisy you are focusing on. 

I don't really see how it's so vital to the thread which is about a misguided woman sadly losing her life needlessly, and I don't see whatever you are seeing that makes "hypocrisy" something that plagues the broadly generalized "left" more so than it does any other group of millions of people. 
It's a human frailty common amongst our entire population.

Look man, gonna be honest with you. I don't think Hurricane gives a [BLEEP] about this chick. Gonna go out on a limb and suggest that many of the original posters who were so quick to respond to this post wanted to use it as an example to justify their own beliefs, rather than anything productive. Over a million people were in DC and a handful was stupid enough to break into the Capitol. She is responsible for her own actions. She died tragically, because she made a bad decision. Trump didn't tell her to do it. She chose to do it. Now, we have a memorial thread dedicated, in her honor, to lambast Trump supporters. What makes this worse is that many of these same posters justified criminal behavior for MONTHS. It's crude at best. I didn't see conservatives creating fake memorials to emphasize their political positions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(01-08-2021, 02:58 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Look man, gonna be honest with you. I don't think Hurricane gives a [BLEEP] about this chick. Gonna go out on a limb and suggest that many of the original posters who were so quick to respond to this post wanted to use it as an example to justify their own beliefs, rather than anything productive. Over a million people were in DC and a handful was stupid enough to break into the Capitol. She is responsible for her own actions. She died tragically, because she made a bad decision. Trump didn't tell her to do it. She chose to do it. Now, we have a memorial thread dedicated, in her honor, to lambast Trump supporters. What makes this worse is that many of these same posters justified criminal behavior for MONTHS. It's crude at best. I didn't see conservatives creating fake memorials to emphasize their political positions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure HURRICANE cares much about anything or anyone except his stock portfolio.

(01-08-2021, 02:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-08-2021, 01:46 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I am one of those people, but there is a big difference here.  The rioting a looting that happened this last year had most of the people involved attacking law enforcement, burning businesses, destroying property, etc.  Their actions were clearly destructive and a threat to life.

The protest at the Capitol was the opposite as most of the people there were simply exercising their 1st Amendment right.  It was an extremely small percentage of the people there that were violent and/or destructive.

I'm not saying that breaking into the Capitol building was the right thing to do and I am not saying that the small handful of people there that were violent were innocent.  Far from it.  They broke the law, caused destruction, etc. and should pay the price for it.  All that I am saying is that this was a protest that got out of hand.  What we saw in many cases last year was outright rioting, looting, vandalism, etc.

JIB. 

They killed a cop, injured 13 other cops, destroyed federal property, and planted pipe bombs for chrissake.  

You are severely attempting to gloss over the actions of these violent trespassing criminals. 

What percentage of them were "peaceful" felons?   80%  85%   94.3%?  

Who gives a [BLEEP]?  
They became violent rioters when they crossed a guarded threshold and entered a federal building by force.

I think you are kind of missing my point.

It appears to me that you are referring to "they" and "them" as everyone that was at the Capitol building.  If I am mistaken about that I apologize.  I watched the events unfolding on live television and flipped between a few different news outlets to see the coverage.  By far the vast majority of the people there were peaceful and mostly standing around with patriotic flags/displays and such.  It was a VERY small minority that breached the Capitol building, caused damage and got into altercations with authorities.  I am certainly not "glossing over" the actions of those very few.  As I said before "They broke the law, caused destruction, etc. and should pay the price for it".

Contrast that to what happened last year when you had crowds of people physically attacking police officers, smashing windows, starting fires, etc. and the MSM called that a "mostly peaceful protest".

Here's a little experiment to try to explain my point a bit better to you.  Watch video of news feeds from say the riot in Kenosha from last year with the sound off.  Do the same thing with the protest at the Capitol.  Which one looks "mostly peaceful" to you and with one looks like a violent riot?

(01-08-2021, 02:28 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Sure. We all agree with you, dude. Even JIB says shouldn't have been there and took a risk. He says she should have been complying with orders and she wasn't. He called them criminals. No one here should waste another second trying to argue if this shooting was justified. The point, in case people forgot, is to point out the BLATANT hypocrisy of the left. That is all. NYC, can you not see the double standard from the left?

Also, side note. Went looking for an article about how the cop died. Can't find one that says what he died from. Bet it was Covid. I reserve the right to change my mind when the press can actually uncover and report what killed the guy.

---

You posted a second before me. The hypocrisy is important. It's important to get after both sides for it. It's how you know who in principled and who is power hungry. Sometimes distinctions matter. In this case, it doesn't, because everyone knows that if it happened in reverse, the damage would have been far worse, and the media and politicians would have had completely different responses.

I seem to recall seeing something about an injury to the head, but I can't find it either.