Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(11-27-2023, 10:37 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-26-2023, 06:37 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Refs were ugly.

Jags beautiful.

I don't understand how we get the interns each week. At some point the league has to recognize that we're a good team and deserve competent refs.

OK, maybe I do understand why.

We need whatever refs the Eagles get, but not when we are playing the Eagles.

I was in the end zone. Houston fans were awesome but understandable upset with the refs. There were tons of holding calls unflagged but the PI calls against number 4 were dumb on a few plays.

The interception sucked because of the refs as well. CJ Storud extended the plays very effectively. They are going to be tough and a nice rivalry for sure.

(11-27-2023, 11:36 AM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]I was in the end zone. Houston fans were awesome but understandable upset with the refs. There were tons of holding calls unflagged but the PI calls against number 4 were dumb on a few plays.

The interception sucked because of the refs as well. CJ Storud extended the plays very effectively. They are going to be tough and a nice rivalry for sure.

I do not agree with that. twice #4 was beat. His solution was to keep our receiver from having both hands to catch the ball. Hand fighting? Pffft, what I saw was our receiver trying to free his trailing hand from a beaten defensive back that was trying to restrict the use of it. Hand fighting is ok trying to get position as the route is run. Once the ball is on the way it is not. What #4 did was not that.  We have been called for the same thing, it is the act of desperation by a back that has been beaten and has no recourse but to commit PI and hope it doesn't get called.

(11-27-2023, 12:13 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 11:36 AM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]I was in the end zone. Houston fans were awesome but understandable upset with the refs. There were tons of holding calls unflagged but the PI calls against number 4 were dumb on a few plays.

The interception sucked because of the refs as well. CJ Storud extended the plays very effectively. They are going to be tough and a nice rivalry for sure.

I do not agree with that. twice #4 was beat. His solution was to keep our receiver from having both hands to catch the ball. Hand fighting? Pffft, what I saw was our receiver trying to free his trailing hand from a beaten defensive back that was trying to restrict the use of it. Hand fighting is ok trying to get position as the route is run. Once the ball is on the way it is not. What #4 did was not that.  We have been called for the same thing, it is the act of desperation by a back that has been beaten and has no recourse but to commit PI and hope it doesn't get called.

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...pid1587042

I watched the game in 40 again specifically to see how the quarterbacks played.

On rewatch it seemed to me that Stroud played a slightly better game than Trevor, I have to say. Stroud was creating with his legs to avoid pressure, that was a plus for him. Trevor did not have to do this as much, the Jags O-line held up much better so is that Trevors fault, one could argue? Trevor seemed to be executing the game plan more often than Stroud. Stroud was dancing in the pocket buying time more often, not always finding someone, but eventually on a few nice plays he did create and then completed a nice pass for example the TD to Collins late and the long gain to Hutchinson. The plays completed within the play design was higher for Lawrence, and one of his best throws right after the half was out of structure to Ridley that looked pretty easily executed but went for 40+ yards. In general I thought Lawrence had the best play of the day (that counted), the completion to Kirk right before halftime.

Trevor got lucky on the drive where they eventually scored a TD to Ridley, missing first Engram too high, then missing Kirk to the right but a penalty keeps the drive alive, then being slightly late to Farrell on the bootleg. Not a good sequence there. Stroud had a bad sequence on 3rd & 1 and then 4th & 1 late when he had lots of time on both occasions but overthrew deep each time. Both also had screen passes going for big gains, so these even themselves out.

So Trevor throws more within structure and Stroud created more plays with his legs, looking downfield and making it appear that he played better due to the higher difficulty that he was up against due to his O-line not holding up so well. The Jaguars won though because of this good D-Line play, and because they got two big sacks by Allen and Allen/Walker on the final drive that eventually stalled Stroud and the FG was missed. And the fact that a quarterbacks knows where to go with the football and can execute the game plan is certainly a quality that should be held in high regards, even though to the naked eye it might not be as obvious visually.

(11-27-2023, 01:15 PM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]I watched the game in 40 again specifically to see how the quarterbacks played.

On rewatch it seemed to me that Stroud played a slightly better game than Trevor, I have to say. Stroud was creating with his legs to avoid pressure, that was a plus for him. Trevor did not have to do this as much, the Jags O-line held up much better so is that Trevors fault, one could argue? Trevor seemed to be executing the game plan more often than Stroud. Stroud was dancing in the pocket buying time more often, not always finding someone, but eventually on a few nice plays he did create and then completed a nice pass for example the TD to Collins late and the long gain to Hutchinson. The plays completed within the play design was higher for Lawrence, and one of his best throws right after the half was out of structure to Ridley that looked pretty easily executed but went for 40+ yards. In general I thought Lawrence had the best play of the day (that counted), the completion to Kirk right before halftime.

Trevor got lucky on the drive where they eventually scored a TD to Ridley, missing first Engram too high, then missing Kirk to the right but a penalty keeps the drive alive, then being slightly late to Farrell on the bootleg. Not a good sequence there. Stroud had a bad sequence on 3rd & 1 and then 4th & 1 late when he had lots of time on both occasions but overthrew deep each time. Both also had screen passes going for big gains, so these even themselves out.

So Trevor throws more within structure and Stroud created more plays with his legs, looking downfield and making it appear that he played better due to the higher difficulty that he was up against due to his O-line not holding up so well. The Jaguars won though because of this good D-Line play, and because they got two big sacks by Allen and Allen/Walker on the final drive that eventually stalled Stroud and the FG was missed. And the fact that a quarterbacks knows where to go with the football and can execute the game plan is certainly a quality that should be held in high regards, even though to the naked eye it might not be as obvious visually.

I'm going to refute some things here.

1. This entire narrative that Stroud played better than Lawrence is false. Let's also not forget how different this game looks if Ridley catches the TD and Engram doesn't get held.
2. So because Lawrence played from within the pocket and make quick reads, you're holding that against him? And Stroud running around is a positive for him?
3. How did Trevor get "lucky" exactly? He threw high to Engram because a LB was waiting right there. He had to throw over top of him and yea, it was high but it was on purpose. 
4. Missed Kirk... but it was because he was being held out of his break. This is a negative for Trevor?

It's interesting how you start by saying you thought Stroud out played him but your last sentence seems to insinuate that it was Trevor?

Both QBs played very well but I think Trevor outplayed him.

(11-27-2023, 01:44 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 01:15 PM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]I watched the game in 40 again specifically to see how the quarterbacks played.

On rewatch it seemed to me that Stroud played a slightly better game than Trevor, I have to say. Stroud was creating with his legs to avoid pressure, that was a plus for him. Trevor did not have to do this as much, the Jags O-line held up much better so is that Trevors fault, one could argue? Trevor seemed to be executing the game plan more often than Stroud. Stroud was dancing in the pocket buying time more often, not always finding someone, but eventually on a few nice plays he did create and then completed a nice pass for example the TD to Collins late and the long gain to Hutchinson. The plays completed within the play design was higher for Lawrence, and one of his best throws right after the half was out of structure to Ridley that looked pretty easily executed but went for 40+ yards. In general I thought Lawrence had the best play of the day (that counted), the completion to Kirk right before halftime.

Trevor got lucky on the drive where they eventually scored a TD to Ridley, missing first Engram too high, then missing Kirk to the right but a penalty keeps the drive alive, then being slightly late to Farrell on the bootleg. Not a good sequence there. Stroud had a bad sequence on 3rd & 1 and then 4th & 1 late when he had lots of time on both occasions but overthrew deep each time. Both also had screen passes going for big gains, so these even themselves out.

So Trevor throws more within structure and Stroud created more plays with his legs, looking downfield and making it appear that he played better due to the higher difficulty that he was up against due to his O-line not holding up so well. The Jaguars won though because of this good D-Line play, and because they got two big sacks by Allen and Allen/Walker on the final drive that eventually stalled Stroud and the FG was missed. And the fact that a quarterbacks knows where to go with the football and can execute the game plan is certainly a quality that should be held in high regards, even though to the naked eye it might not be as obvious visually.

I'm going to refute some things here.

1. This entire narrative that Stroud played better than Lawrence is false. Let's also not forget how different this game looks if Ridley catches the TD and Engram doesn't get held.
2. So because Lawrence played from within the pocket and make quick reads, you're holding that against him? And Stroud running around is a positive for him?
3. How did Trevor get "lucky" exactly? He threw high to Engram because a LB was waiting right there. He had to throw over top of him and yea, it was high but it was on purpose. 
4. Missed Kirk... but it was because he was being held out of his break. This is a negative for Trevor?

It's interesting how you start by saying you thought Stroud out played him but your last sentence seems to insinuate that it was Trevor?

Both QBs played very well but I think Trevor outplayed him.

I think they were pretty even, difference today was Stroud had less time to throw. Lawrence stats look worse than they should tho because of the no call hold on the int, and the endzone drop tho.

Lawrence had a really nice game sunday.

(11-27-2023, 02:10 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 01:44 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to refute some things here.

1. This entire narrative that Stroud played better than Lawrence is false. Let's also not forget how different this game looks if Ridley catches the TD and Engram doesn't get held.
2. So because Lawrence played from within the pocket and make quick reads, you're holding that against him? And Stroud running around is a positive for him?
3. How did Trevor get "lucky" exactly? He threw high to Engram because a LB was waiting right there. He had to throw over top of him and yea, it was high but it was on purpose. 
4. Missed Kirk... but it was because he was being held out of his break. This is a negative for Trevor?

It's interesting how you start by saying you thought Stroud out played him but your last sentence seems to insinuate that it was Trevor?

Both QBs played very well but I think Trevor outplayed him.

I think they were pretty even, difference today was Stroud had less time to throw. Lawrence stats look worse than they should tho because of the no call hold on the int, and the endzone drop tho.

Lawrence had a really nice game sunday.

Prior to week 12 CJ was averaging 2.5 seconds to throw. Right dead on the NFL benchmark minimum for "good protection."
Only 10 QBs in the league had more time.  

TL was averaging 2.1 seconds.
There were 41 QBs with 4 or more games played in the NFL this season so far averaging a longer pocket time than Lawrence. 

The week 12 numbers are not out yet, but it will be interesting to see how they actually stack up.

Lawrence executes the playbook, Stroud only has busted plays.

lawrence was on the money for alot of the day. that high throw to Engram had to be high or it would of been intercepted. there was a LB all over that play.

the drop by Kirk and Ridley would of given Trevor 6 plays over 40 yards and that zay play is 1 inch in bounds that makes 7.

Trevor was superior to CJ yesterday in traditional Pocket Throwing. CJ rolled out on majority of his snaps, if he didn't we would of had another 6 or 7 sacks. only thing that kept them in this game, was the non-call INT and the missed point opportunity at the end of the half.

(11-27-2023, 12:13 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 11:36 AM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]I was in the end zone. Houston fans were awesome but understandable upset with the refs. There were tons of holding calls unflagged but the PI calls against number 4 were dumb on a few plays.

The interception sucked because of the refs as well. CJ Storud extended the plays very effectively. They are going to be tough and a nice rivalry for sure.

I do not agree with that. twice #4 was beat. His solution was to keep our receiver from having both hands to catch the ball. Hand fighting? Pffft, what I saw was our receiver trying to free his trailing hand from a beaten defensive back that was trying to restrict the use of it. Hand fighting is ok trying to get position as the route is run. Once the ball is on the way it is not. What #4 did was not that.  We have been called for the same thing, it is the act of desperation by a back that has been beaten and has no recourse but to commit PI and hope it doesn't get called.

100% agree. The flags were legit, not making up for prior failures. Kid got beat and tried to get away with something to get back to an advantage. Got caught, plain and simple.

Stroud's ability to avoid sacks and play Seahawks/Wilson ball was his only real strength, and it was productive. He'll keep putting film out there though and his mobility is likely going to get him injured at some point. I'm just glad we shut the Texan fans up that were acting like it was a CJ Stroud world and we were all just living in it.

I was listening to 1010 and Tony brought up Harrison. Will Anderson was another of the Texan's first round picks. They traded to the 3rd pick up to get him, he had 38 pressures this year before the game, Harrison stoned him all day. I can't remember Anderson's name being called all day except the time he worked Strange over.

(11-27-2023, 02:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence executes the playbook, Stroud only has busted plays.

Exactly.  The reckless way stroud plays will result in him not finishing the season due to injury.

(11-27-2023, 06:15 PM)H8tank Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 02:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence executes the playbook, Stroud only has busted plays.

Exactly.  The reckless way stroud plays will result in him not finishing the season due to injury.

I think OL is more subject to holding calls when the QB ends up improvising. DL follows the QB, OL doesn't have a rear view mirror.

Purely anecdotal on my part, but I notice the calls more on those "busted" plays. The OL will have to be very disciplined to avoid putting the offense in the hole if that's Stroud's M.O.

(11-27-2023, 02:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence executes executed the playbook, Stroud only has had busted plays.

We outplayed them.  We got pressure on Stroud, and he had to scramble.  But it's to his credit that he had a lot of success when he was forced out of the pocket.  Trevor can do the same thing.  They're really very similar.  Both of them can succeed from the pocket, or when forced out of the pocket.

The things that impress me about Stroud are his coolness under pressure, and his accuracy.  He throws very accurate passes.

How did the Panthers miss on the #1 pick so badly?  That was a very bad decision to make that trade to move up and then select the wrong guy.

I saw the PFF grades and Stroud was a 85 and Lawrence an 80, both really good grades and I probably tend to agree with this assessment, I thought Lawrence overall played very well.

If you asked what was missing from an even higher grade I would point to that sequence of 4 throws before the TD to Ridley which could have been executed better as well as one or two dangerous passes (one on the 2nd drive and one on the last drive before the ball to Zay Jones on 3rd down, which was out of bounds). You could say Lawrence had 1.5 turnover-worthy plays and Stroud really only had one, the tipped ball which nearly got picked on the last drive. Small margins but we are already really high up there in quality play overall from both QBs.

(11-28-2023, 10:11 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]I saw the PFF grades and Stroud was a 85 and Lawrence an 80, both really good grades and I probably tend to agree with this assessment, I thought Lawrence overall played very well.

If you asked what was missing from an even higher grade I would point to that sequence of 4 throws before the TD to Ridley which could have been executed better as well as one or two dangerous passes (one on the 2nd drive and one on the last drive before the ball to Zay Jones on 3rd down, which was out of bounds). You could say Lawrence had 1.5 turnover-worthy plays and Stroud really only had one, the tipped ball which nearly got picked on the last drive. Small margins but we are already really high up there in quality play overall from both QBs.

Really? I guess the difference was the "interception" Trevor threw.

(11-28-2023, 09:37 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-27-2023, 02:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence executes executed the playbook, Stroud only has had busted plays.

We outplayed them.  We got pressure on Stroud, and he had to scramble.  But it's to his credit that he had a lot of success when he was forced out of the pocket.  Trevor can do the same thing.  They're really very similar.  Both of them can succeed from the pocket, or when forced out of the pocket.

The things that impress me about Stroud are his coolness under pressure, and his accuracy.  He throws very accurate passes.

How did the Panthers miss on the #1 pick so badly?  That was a very bad decision to make that trade to move up and then select the wrong guy.

When I first made that comment in the game day thread the point was that keeping Stroud in pocket by playing disciplined defense and staying on their gaps would be the best way to expose him. Letting him freelance is really the worst option, so they needed to stop the overpursuit that he was taking advantage of and just keep him contained. It worked out in the end, but forcing him to play in the pocket and taking away the middle has shown to be the right approach so far. Otherwise he dances around a bit and then heaves it 40 yards downfield to make the announcers wet themselves in exultation.

Don't get me wrong I am not glossing over the real PI actions, the refs were inconsistent. The Interception was from penalty.

Trevor is awesome and played his game. CJ Stroud is fun but I would take Trevor all day every day.

Our defense is way better than I thought they would be. The busted plays took forever because the LBs. CBs, and Safeties played so well. Even with the injuries they are all playing and doing their jobs.

When this offense fully clicks. It is going to be devastating on our opposition. Honestly thus game wasn't as close as the score indicated.