Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(02-08-2024, 06:36 PM)JaG4LyFe Wrote: [ -> ]Snubbed. Peppers, mcmichael, hester

Gates got snubbed.

Freddy T isn't (and shouldn't be) in before him, plain and simple.

Tough group this year. Some of the older heads on defense that got in also really deserved it when you read up on their numbers and bio's. Especially McMichael with the Bears. Nearly 100 career sacks for a DT during that era is pretty impressive. That other backer with the Orange Crush defense in the 70's was also one of the main 3 - 4 backers to start up when that defense was introduced into the NFL.

Fred will eventually get in. Once your name starts rounding out a finalists list you're in the money for the most part. Just depends on who else keeps coming in. Mia O'Brien was reeling off some 1st timers coming up in 2026 or 2027 I think. Almost guaranteed Fred won't get in during those years. His best shot may be in 2025 and then post 2027 from the looks and sounds of it.

Hester is a guy I scratch my head at. Great return guy but really didn't do anything else well. Idk, in the grand scheme of things I don't think he was hall worthy and that might be an unpopular take. You could swap him out with literally any other candidate and I wouldn't bat an eye.

I don't mind Hester being inducted at all. 19 special team's TD's is nothing to sneeze at. With how the rules are today it's possible we never see another big time return specialist like him, Dante Hall or Josh Cribbs ever again. It's the same reason why Fred Taylor will eventually get in. The running game is dying in the NFL. Only a few notable exceptions with guys like McCaffrey and an aging Derick Henry that really stood out over the past few years.

I think Fred's total yards from scrimmage is pretty remarkable career wise. Especially when you consider he missed probably 60 career game opportunities to really pad those stats. And, with a 4.6 YPC career average? Even with basic math, if you consider he would probably have 15 carries at the minimum in those games, he missed out on close to 900 - 1000 career rushing attempts, not even factoring in potential receptions he could have had. He's easily a 17,000+ career yards from scrimmage player.

I don't think it's a matter of if with him anymore. It's a matter of when.

There are 25 running backs in the hall currently. It's roughly 1 guy enshrined for every 2.5 or 3 years of league history.
For Fred's approximately 10 year career, we should expect 3 or 4 guys to be enshrined. Only Tomlinson and Martin really did it better. Edge did not. Just working from these averages, Fred should get in in the next couple of years.

(02-09-2024, 10:52 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]There are 25 running backs in the hall currently.  It's roughly 1 guy enshrined for every 2.5 or 3 years of league history.
For Fred's approximately 10 year career, we should expect 3 or 4 guys to be enshrined. Only Tomlinson and Martin really did it better.  Edge did not. Just working from these averages, Fred should get in in the next couple of years.

Wait, what? I love Fred Taylor man. You're saying Edgerrin James was a lesser talent than Fred Taylor? That's a little wild for me. He had two ridiculously good back-to-back years as a rookie and 2nd year player when he lead the NFL in rushing yardage twice. With all due respect. James blew Taylor out of the water. He did more with nearly identical playing time. Plus a Superbowl win. 

Nearly the same exact football players as well in terms of size, speed and overall ability in the running game and receiving game. The only benefit I can give James over Taylor is the fact that he played inside a dome for the minimum of eight games per season, which, I am sure that helped. However, James was one hell of a football player on the field. Both, early on in his career and post the two back-to-back injury plagued seasons he had in years three and four.

(02-09-2024, 11:13 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-09-2024, 10:52 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]There are 25 running backs in the hall currently.  It's roughly 1 guy enshrined for every 2.5 or 3 years of league history.
For Fred's approximately 10 year career, we should expect 3 or 4 guys to be enshrined. Only Tomlinson and Martin really did it better.  Edge did not. Just working from these averages, Fred should get in in the next couple of years.

Wait, what? I love Fred Taylor man. You're saying Edgerrin James was a lesser talent than Fred Taylor? That's a little wild for me. He had two ridiculously good back-to-back years as a rookie and 2nd year player when he lead the NFL in rushing yardage twice. With all due respect. James blew Taylor out of the water. He did more with nearly identical playing time. Plus a Superbowl win. 

Nearly the same exact football players as well in terms of size, speed and overall ability in the running game and receiving game. The only benefit I can give James over Taylor is the fact that he played inside a dome for the minimum of eight games per season, which, I am sure that helped. However, James was one hell of a football player on the field. Both, early on in his career and post the two back-to-back injury plagued seasons he had in years three and four.

James won ORoY but did not win a Super Bowl.

(02-09-2024, 11:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-09-2024, 11:13 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Wait, what? I love Fred Taylor man. You're saying Edgerrin James was a lesser talent than Fred Taylor? That's a little wild for me. He had two ridiculously good back-to-back years as a rookie and 2nd year player when he lead the NFL in rushing yardage twice. With all due respect. James blew Taylor out of the water. He did more with nearly identical playing time. Plus a Superbowl win. 

Nearly the same exact football players as well in terms of size, speed and overall ability in the running game and receiving game. The only benefit I can give James over Taylor is the fact that he played inside a dome for the minimum of eight games per season, which, I am sure that helped. However, James was one hell of a football player on the field. Both, early on in his career and post the two back-to-back injury plagued seasons he had in years three and four.

James won ORoY but did not win a Super Bowl.

My bad. I thought they won it in 2005. You're right, he was in Arizona in 2006. Either way. Taylor was great, so was James, and I would give the nod to James as far as overall careers went and output went.

James had a better o line, fewer 8 man boxes, more 3rd and short opportunities (both benefits of playing with a really good passing game) and *still* Fred got more yards per attempt.

James was good but he doesn't belong in the same conversation as Fred.

Fred conquered Theee Rivers Stadium. That game was one heck of a resume builder for HOF. Well the Dolphins playoff game as well.

https://www.jaguars.com/news/twenty-five...teelers-24

He averaged 7.8 YPC that game. Man I love Fred and the bygone era of running backs.

https://youtu.be/Tyf99vLzxXA?si=AubxT-VhpqQP7EOW

(02-09-2024, 09:00 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-08-2024, 06:36 PM)JaG4LyFe Wrote: [ -> ]Snubbed. Peppers, mcmichael, hester

Gates got snubbed.

Freddy T isn't (and shouldn't be) in before him, plain and simple.

While I agree Gates got snubbed, but so did Fred. Gates had 83 more games than Fred. I couldn't understand the draw of Hester so I looked at their career stats(below)  After seeing them it became obvious aliens were the cause of the decision. Best reason I could come up with.

Things that stood out to me were while playing about the same number of games Hester only started 47, only 3427 yards, 17 TD;s, while fumbling an astounding 41 times.   What the H E double hockey sticks ???

Taylor
Games-153, GS-137, Touch-2824, YScm--14079, TD's-74, Fumble-27
Gates
Games-236, GS-190, Touch-955, YScm--11841, TD's-116, Fumble-8
Hester
Games-156, GS-47, Touch-291, YScm--3427, TD's-17, Fumble-41

A little math on fumble rate
Fred = .96%per touch
Gates = .86% per touch
Hester = 14.9% per touch (probably why he only started 47 times.)

(02-09-2024, 11:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-09-2024, 09:00 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Gates got snubbed.

Freddy T isn't (and shouldn't be) in before him, plain and simple.

While I agree Gates got snubbed, but so did Fred. Gates had 83 more games than Fred. I couldn't understand the draw of Hester so I looked at their career stats(below)  After seeing them it became obvious aliens were the cause of the decision. Best reason I could come up with.

Things that stood out to me were while playing about the same number of games Hester only started 47, only 3427 yards, 17 TD;s, while fumbling an astounding 41 times.   What the H E double hockey sticks ???

Taylor
Games-153, GS-137, Touch-2824, YScm--14079, TD's-74, Fumble-27
Gates
Games-236, GS-190, Touch-955, YScm--11841, TD's-116, Fumble-8
Hester
Games-156, GS-47, Touch-291, YScm--3427, TD's-17, Fumble-41

A little math on fumble rate
Fred = .96%per touch
Gates = .86% per touch
Hester = 14.9% per touch  (probably why he only started 47 times.)

Bruh, Hester was a corner who played a few offensive snaps ala Swagnew. His numbers are all from his role as return specialist. You can't compare him to every down players, he was a specialist.

(02-10-2024, 05:40 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-09-2024, 11:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]While I agree Gates got snubbed, but so did Fred. Gates had 83 more games than Fred. I couldn't understand the draw of Hester so I looked at their career stats(below)  After seeing them it became obvious aliens were the cause of the decision. Best reason I could come up with.

Things that stood out to me were while playing about the same number of games Hester only started 47, only 3427 yards, 17 TD;s, while fumbling an astounding 41 times.   What the H E double hockey sticks ???

Taylor
Games-153, GS-137, Touch-2824, YScm--14079, TD's-74, Fumble-27
Gates
Games-236, GS-190, Touch-955, YScm--11841, TD's-116, Fumble-8
Hester
Games-156, GS-47, Touch-291, YScm--3427, TD's-17, Fumble-41

A little math on fumble rate
Fred = .96%per touch
Gates = .86% per touch
Hester = 14.9% per touch  (probably why he only started 47 times.)

Bruh, Hester was a corner who played a few offensive snaps ala Swagnew. His numbers are all from his role as return specialist. You can't compare him to every down players, he was a specialist.

It's his 19 TD's on special teams that got him in. I think he's in a very exclusive group of return specialists in the entire history of the NFL. I think it's just Hester, Mitchell and Cribbs that have a crazy amount of TD's on kick-off's and/or punt's.

It goes back to what I was saying earlier in this thread. Because of how the rules keep changing and it's being geared towards safety more and more? We may never see a return specialist like him again.

Same with the running game and running backs in general. There's not very many big name, household name backs anymore in today's pass happy, touch football game. That's why TE's are making a killing over the middle as well as slot receivers. All of these roles are being used more and more to supplement the lack of running games in the NFL.

It will eventually get Taylor in. More than likely after guys like Gore and Peterson get in. I can't think of very many RB's that are eligible that's hanging out there that would get in over him that played during his era or before his era. I think Henry and McCaffrey are absolutely first ballot locks but those guys got at least two, three good years left in the tank more than likely before they hang it up.

Fred missed 55 regular season games…that’s just crazy, and to put his numbers is crazy.

(02-10-2024, 07:07 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Fred missed 55 regular season games…that’s just crazy, and to put his numbers is crazy.

The 4.6 YPC is what makes him standout. I think that's 4th all time best with certain parameters set based on all purpose yards or career carries. Puts him behind the likes of other all time greats like Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and Jim Brown if I am not mistaken.

Had this team won the Superbowl in 1999, it's a foregone conclusion, that, Boselli would have been in the Hall of Fame a lot sooner and I am willing to bet guys like Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith & Keenan McCardell are in as well.

Small market bias kills this team significantly in my opinion.

(02-10-2024, 07:15 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-10-2024, 07:07 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Fred missed 55 regular season games…that’s just crazy, and to put his numbers is crazy.

The 4.6 YPC is what makes him standout. I think that's 4th all time best with certain parameters set based on all purpose yards or career carries. Puts him behind the likes of other all time greats like Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and Jim Brown if I am not mistaken.

Had this team won the Superbowl in 1999, it's a foregone conclusion, that, Boselli would have been in the Hall of Fame a lot sooner and I am willing to bet guys like Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith & Keenan McCardell are in as well.

Small market bias kills this team significantly in my opinion.

Jimmy Smith is a sure-fire hall of fame talent. I love Keenan but he’s not on Jimmy’s level. 

Smith and Taylor should be in the hall with Boselli.

(02-10-2024, 05:40 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-09-2024, 11:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]While I agree Gates got snubbed, but so did Fred. Gates had 83 more games than Fred. I couldn't understand the draw of Hester so I looked at their career stats(below)  After seeing them it became obvious aliens were the cause of the decision. Best reason I could come up with.

Things that stood out to me were while playing about the same number of games Hester only started 47, only 3427 yards, 17 TD;s, while fumbling an astounding 41 times.   What the H E double hockey sticks ???

Taylor
Games-153, GS-137, Touch-2824, YScm--14079, TD's-74, Fumble-27
Gates
Games-236, GS-190, Touch-955, YScm--11841, TD's-116, Fumble-8
Hester
Games-156, GS-47, Touch-291, YScm--3427, TD's-17, Fumble-41

A little math on fumble rate
Fred = .96%per touch
Gates = .86% per touch
Hester = 14.9% per touch  (probably why he only started 47 times.)

Bruh, Hester was a corner who played a few offensive snaps ala Swagnew. His numbers are all from his role as return specialist. You can't compare him to every down players, he was a specialist.

I understand he was a Wide Receiver / return specialist.  Yes, he was a good returner, but I do remember his fumbling. Most on here are all over Tank for fumbling. tanks rate this year was 2 over 51 touches. That is 3.9% vs Hester's 14 almost 15%. I guess they were feeling guilty about needing to put a special teams specialist in the hall. If that is the case our long snapper is well on his way to the hall. LOL

To me, Hester getting in is similar to when Ray Guy got in. It sets a precedent for better or for worse, that now “what about [this punter]” and “what about [this special teams standout]”. You now have to explain why this position player isn’t worthy and you can’t say well this position doesn’t belong in.

Taylor deserves it, plain and simple; and Hester shouldn’t have been inducted

Devin Hester over Fred Taylor is insane.

Total Yards
Hester - 14,455
Taylor - 14,079

Total TD
Hester - 37
Taylor - 74

Fumbles
Hester - 41
Taylor - 27

Receiving TD
Hester - 16
Taylor - 8

Rushing TD
Hester - 1
Taylor - 66

Points Scored
Hester - 222
Taylor - 447

Career Approximate Value
Hester - 55
Taylor - 109

6 Highest Approximate Value Seasons
Hester - 12, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Taylor - 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12

Playoff seasons:
Hester - 3
Taylor - 5

Playoff total yards
Hester - 515
Taylor - 683

Playoff Touchdowns
Hester - 1
Taylor - 4

Regular-Season games missed due to injury
Hester - 5
Taylor - 55

Jimmy Smith AND Fred Taylor deserve to be in the Hall of Fame over Devin Hester.

They should have an optional spot for special teams guys like Hester that’s available once every 5 years but not mandatory to use. I think he’s a hall of famer after watching the 9 minute highlight reel that went around twitter recently though I would argue that the first two highlights on that reel were more about great special teams blocking and poor coverage by the opposing team than what Hester actually did on those two plays. That said, the amount of TDs he scored on special teams combined with some of his highlights and I’d put him in but as mentioned above, I’d have basically a separate process for special teams guys.