(02-11-2024, 12:23 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Devin Hester over Fred Taylor is insane.
Total Yards
Hester - 14,455
Taylor - 14,079
Total TD
Hester - 37
Taylor - 74
Fumbles
Hester - 41
Taylor - 27
Receiving TD
Hester - 16
Taylor - 8
Rushing TD
Hester - 1
Taylor - 66
Points Scored
Hester - 222
Taylor - 447
Career Approximate Value
Hester - 55
Taylor - 109
6 Highest Approximate Value Seasons
Hester - 12, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Taylor - 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12
Playoff seasons:
Hester - 3
Taylor - 5
Playoff total yards
Hester - 515
Taylor - 683
Playoff Touchdowns
Hester - 1
Taylor - 4
Regular-Season games missed due to injury
Hester - 5
Taylor - 55
Jimmy Smith AND Fred Taylor deserve to be in the Hall of Fame over Devin Hester.
While I agree with the conclusion of your post, I cannot agree with your stats. Mine actually make the gap between them greater.
I show:
Total yards of 3427, not 14,455
Total TD's of 17 not 37
Total points would then be 102 not 222
Link below to my data can you show me yours?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...stDe99.htm
(02-10-2024, 05:40 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (02-09-2024, 11:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]While I agree Gates got snubbed, but so did Fred. Gates had 83 more games than Fred. I couldn't understand the draw of Hester so I looked at their career stats(below) After seeing them it became obvious aliens were the cause of the decision. Best reason I could come up with.
Things that stood out to me were while playing about the same number of games Hester only started 47, only 3427 yards, 17 TD;s, while fumbling an astounding 41 times. What the H E double hockey sticks ???
Taylor
Games-153, GS-137, Touch-2824, YScm--14079, TD's-74, Fumble-27
Gates
Games-236, GS-190, Touch-955, YScm--11841, TD's-116, Fumble-8
Hester
Games-156, GS-47, Touch-291, YScm--3427, TD's-17, Fumble-41
A little math on fumble rate
Fred = .96%per touch
Gates = .86% per touch
Hester = 14.9% per touch (probably why he only started 47 times.)
Bruh, Hester was a corner who played a few offensive snaps ala Swagnew. His numbers are all from his role as return specialist. You can't compare him to every down players, he was a specialist.
You can if you are biased.
14K all purpose yards puts him at the top of these three!
welp
The inclusion of ST players is always going to be a rub.
The inclusion of Freddy will always be tough due to TD numbers and the lack of spotlight in a small market.
That makes this outcome a little weird but not all that surprising for me.
If running backs continue to be devalued around the NFL for long enough, Freddy's rushing totals will eventually be enough to get him in. We'll see...
(02-11-2024, 11:40 AM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]To me, Hester getting in is similar to when Ray Guy got in. It sets a precedent for better or for worse, that now “what about [this punter]” and “what about [this special teams standout]”. You now have to explain why this position player isn’t worthy and you can’t say well this position doesn’t belong in.
Taylor deserves it, plain and simple; and Hester shouldn’t have been inducted
Disagree wholeheartedly.
Hester getting in is similar to Gale Sayers getting in. Absolutely dangerous return man. Neither had overwhelming stat sheets when you look at other WR or RB, but when they were playing, you made it a point to watch them do what they did.
Just because the head and shoulders best at their position gets in doesn't mean other punters or returners are going to start stealing votes from other nominees. Since Guy got in the hall, how many other punters are in? Since Gale Sayers, we've seen now one other returner get in based on the merit of their return game alone.
Which other return men do you think are going to draw serious (key word here) consideration?
Fred merits consideration, yes. Gates belongs in the Hall, full stop. Gates, like Hester, is in serious conversation as being among the best at his position while he played. I can't say Fred was in similar conversation when he played, especially if you were outside of the 904 area code. Here's a fun take for you, too - I don't think Emmitt was all that either, he was more a product of the team built around him. Sometimes it's not just the stat that gets you in - it's the reputation, it's the accolades, it's the postseason or highlight reel that places you in higher regard than your peers.
Fred's got an uphill climb to get into the hall, for certain. But let's not be delusional about the merit others may have in his stead. Prepare yourself for disappointment. Guys like AP and Beastquake are gonna be eligible soon, and I certainly see both of them getting in before FreddyT. Guys like Hester and Gates will continue to reach eligibility, too, and continue to make his inclusion a challenge (much like it was for Boselli). Realism sometimes sucks. I don't need a statue or a trip to Akron (gross) to tell me Freddy was damn good. I know. But there's a lotta guys in the hall that are pretty damn good in their own right, and that's fine, too.
(02-11-2024, 12:34 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]They should have an optional spot for special teams guys like Hester that’s available once every 5 years but not mandatory to use. I think he’s a hall of famer after watching the 9 minute highlight reel that went around twitter recently though I would argue that the first two highlights on that reel were more about great special teams blocking and poor coverage by the opposing team than what Hester actually did on those two plays. That said, the amount of TDs he scored on special teams combined with some of his highlights and I’d put him in but as mentioned above, I’d have basically a separate process for special teams guys.
Ab-so-freakin-lutely not.
So every five years we start debating whether to include Janikowski, Matt Bahr, Sean Landeta. Vai Sikahema just because they didn't play offense or defense primarily?
Baloney. The hall should be about the best at their position when they played. If the selection committee and then the voters think their contribution was that significant to the game, they should be considered. I don't want to force conversations just because the cycle has come back around. Optional or not, doing so takes away conversation or consideration of plenty other candidates during that fifth year cycle. Imagine being the best at your position, retiring, waiting 5 years, and then being told "sorry, you gotta wait another 4 years before we even entertain the idea of nominating you."
Hester was dang good at what he did. He was a dang unicorn. Don't restructure the whole system because of one extraordinary circumstance, plain and simple.
(02-11-2024, 02:02 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-11-2024, 12:23 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Devin Hester over Fred Taylor is insane.
Total Yards
Hester - 14,455
Taylor - 14,079
Total TD
Hester - 37
Taylor - 74
Fumbles
Hester - 41
Taylor - 27
Receiving TD
Hester - 16
Taylor - 8
Rushing TD
Hester - 1
Taylor - 66
Points Scored
Hester - 222
Taylor - 447
Career Approximate Value
Hester - 55
Taylor - 109
6 Highest Approximate Value Seasons
Hester - 12, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Taylor - 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12
Playoff seasons:
Hester - 3
Taylor - 5
Playoff total yards
Hester - 515
Taylor - 683
Playoff Touchdowns
Hester - 1
Taylor - 4
Regular-Season games missed due to injury
Hester - 5
Taylor - 55
Jimmy Smith AND Fred Taylor deserve to be in the Hall of Fame over Devin Hester.
While I agree with the conclusion of your post, I cannot agree with your stats. Mine actually make the gap between them greater.
I show:
Total yards of 3427, not 14,455
Total TD's of 17 not 37
Total points would then be 102 not 222
Link below to my data can you show me yours?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...stDe99.htm
...and MJD didn't deserve OROY because he only ran for like 900 yards that year.
does that make the point more understandable?
(02-12-2024, 11:58 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-11-2024, 12:34 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]They should have an optional spot for special teams guys like Hester that’s available once every 5 years but not mandatory to use. I think he’s a hall of famer after watching the 9 minute highlight reel that went around twitter recently though I would argue that the first two highlights on that reel were more about great special teams blocking and poor coverage by the opposing team than what Hester actually did on those two plays. That said, the amount of TDs he scored on special teams combined with some of his highlights and I’d put him in but as mentioned above, I’d have basically a separate process for special teams guys.
Ab-so-freakin-lutely not.
So every five years we start debating whether to include Janikowski, Matt Bahr, Sean Landeta. Vai Sikahema just because they didn't play offense or defense primarily?
Baloney. The hall should be about the best at their position when they played. If the selection committee and then the voters think their contribution was that significant to the game, they should be considered. I don't want to force conversations just because the cycle has come back around. Optional or not, doing so takes away conversation or consideration of plenty other candidates during that fifth year cycle. Imagine being the best at your position, retiring, waiting 5 years, and then being told "sorry, you gotta wait another 4 years before we even entertain the idea of nominating you."
Hester was dang good at what he did. He was a dang unicorn. Don't restructure the whole system because of one extraordinary circumstance, plain and simple.
Operative words being "optional" and "not mandatory". You're not forcing conversations about guys that clearly don't belong. There will always be a stream of guys at other positions creating backlogs for deserving guys like Fred. You don't need to exclude special teams guys from the Hall, but they shouldn't be getting in over guys who killed their bodies out there week in and week out while producing Hall worthy numbers. I think Hester is deserving, don't misunderstand me. It's just an apples and oranges comparison between he and Fred or any other player who is on the field 95% of the time when their side of the ball is on the field. I don't think there should be multi-year campaigns to get the same special teamer in year after year. I think you're either first ballot or gthoh. Just don't have their first ballot be at the expense of guys who did a lot more at another position is all. Hell, remove the every 5 year barrier and have it be every year, but there will never be a special teamer that deserves it more than a guy like Freddy so give yourself the option of letting a special teamer in and not have it be at the expense of someone more deserving in my opinion. I don't think removing the barrier or making it an optional selection produces more than 1 or 2 special teamers a decade anyway. I don't know, I don't feel that strongly about it so leaving it alone is fine too.
Adam Vinatieri is eligible next year I think and is worthy as well. Will be interesting to see what team he goes in as. I have more big game memories of him as a patriot but he played 4 years longer for the clots.
I have no problem with Adrian Peterson getting in before Fred.
Peterson clearly had a better career than Fred.
The only RB there now who shouldn't have gotten in before Fred is Edgerrin James.
A poster mentioned Marshawn Lynch. Fred was better than Lynch as well. Lynch and Fred should both be in, but Fred first.
Hester sucks. They should have dug up some dirt on him. Dude when to The U so you know he has some bones buried in his backyard.
Fred definitely isn't making it next year. Way too many first ballot guys.
(02-12-2024, 01:22 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2024, 11:58 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Ab-so-freakin-lutely not.
So every five years we start debating whether to include Janikowski, Matt Bahr, Sean Landeta. Vai Sikahema just because they didn't play offense or defense primarily?
Baloney. The hall should be about the best at their position when they played. If the selection committee and then the voters think their contribution was that significant to the game, they should be considered. I don't want to force conversations just because the cycle has come back around. Optional or not, doing so takes away conversation or consideration of plenty other candidates during that fifth year cycle. Imagine being the best at your position, retiring, waiting 5 years, and then being told "sorry, you gotta wait another 4 years before we even entertain the idea of nominating you."
Hester was dang good at what he did. He was a dang unicorn. Don't restructure the whole system because of one extraordinary circumstance, plain and simple.
Operative words being "optional" and "not mandatory". You're not forcing conversations about guys that clearly don't belong. There will always be a stream of guys at other positions creating backlogs for deserving guys like Fred. You don't need to exclude special teams guys from the Hall, but they shouldn't be getting in over guys who killed their bodies out there week in and week out while producing Hall worthy numbers. I think Hester is deserving, don't misunderstand me. It's just an apples and oranges comparison between he and Fred or any other player who is on the field 95% of the time when their side of the ball is on the field. I don't think there should be multi-year campaigns to get the same special teamer in year after year. I think you're either first ballot or gthoh. Just don't have their first ballot be at the expense of guys who did a lot more at another position is all. Hell, remove the every 5 year barrier and have it be every year, but there will never be a special teamer that deserves it more than a guy like Freddy so give yourself the option of letting a special teamer in and not have it be at the expense of someone more deserving in my opinion. I don't think removing the barrier or making it an optional selection produces more than 1 or 2 special teamers a decade anyway. I don't know, I don't feel that strongly about it so leaving it alone is fine too.
Adam Vinatieri is eligible next year I think and is worthy as well. Will be interesting to see what team he goes in as. I have more big game memories of him as a patriot but he played 4 years longer for the clots.
SImply put, if they deserve to be in the conversation, why do we have to delay the conversation? If they are worthy of inclusion, frickin include them. If they are not, others will be included before them.
I dont think anyone is out there banging the drum for the Kassim Osgoods or Mel Grays - they were good at their job, but they weren't on Hester's level of special. How do you say the above about first ballot or (no) bust, and then also claim that Boselli deserves to be there over a number of other guys who did it at a high level for much longer?
Sometimes we have to get out of our regionality mindset. Freddy was a very good back. But on the national level, a whole lot more people knew Hester and how dangerous he was.
Now if you want to argue the case against some of the WR in the HOF, you might have legs. Does Freddy deserve it more than say, James Lofton or Cris Carter, Isaac Bruce? maybe. But to say the absolute peak of the ST mountain should be excluded just to accommodate the local guy who was very good, although maybe not best at his position seems an odd stance.
(02-12-2024, 02:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I have no problem with Adrian Peterson getting in before Fred.
Peterson clearly had a better career than Fred.
The only RB there now who shouldn't have gotten in before Fred is Edgerrin James.
A poster mentioned Marshawn Lynch. Fred was better than Lynch as well. Lynch and Fred should both be in, but Fred first.
'twas me, and I agree that talent-wise Lynch and Freddy are near the same levels. The difference will be that Marshawn has a SB (or two?) to his name and a legendary play that most everyone has seen.
It's not the fairest criteria, but if one sets aside their teal spectacles, it can be quite foreseeable that Lynch would get the nod first, whether the stats support the decision or not.
(02-13-2024, 09:39 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2024, 01:22 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Operative words being "optional" and "not mandatory". You're not forcing conversations about guys that clearly don't belong. There will always be a stream of guys at other positions creating backlogs for deserving guys like Fred. You don't need to exclude special teams guys from the Hall, but they shouldn't be getting in over guys who killed their bodies out there week in and week out while producing Hall worthy numbers. I think Hester is deserving, don't misunderstand me. It's just an apples and oranges comparison between he and Fred or any other player who is on the field 95% of the time when their side of the ball is on the field. I don't think there should be multi-year campaigns to get the same special teamer in year after year. I think you're either first ballot or gthoh. Just don't have their first ballot be at the expense of guys who did a lot more at another position is all. Hell, remove the every 5 year barrier and have it be every year, but there will never be a special teamer that deserves it more than a guy like Freddy so give yourself the option of letting a special teamer in and not have it be at the expense of someone more deserving in my opinion. I don't think removing the barrier or making it an optional selection produces more than 1 or 2 special teamers a decade anyway. I don't know, I don't feel that strongly about it so leaving it alone is fine too.
Adam Vinatieri is eligible next year I think and is worthy as well. Will be interesting to see what team he goes in as. I have more big game memories of him as a patriot but he played 4 years longer for the clots.
SImply put, if they deserve to be in the conversation, why do we have to delay the conversation? If they are worthy of inclusion, frickin include them. If they are not, others will be included before them.
I dont think anyone is out there banging the drum for the Kassim Osgoods or Mel Grays - they were good at their job, but they weren't on Hester's level of special. How do you say the above about first ballot or (no) bust, and then also claim that Boselli deserves to be there over a number of other guys who did it at a high level for much longer?
Sometimes we have to get out of our regionality mindset. Freddy was a very good back. But on the national level, a whole lot more people knew Hester and how dangerous he was.
Now if you want to argue the case against some of the WR in the HOF, you might have legs. Does Freddy deserve it more than say, James Lofton or Cris Carter, Isaac Bruce? maybe. But to say the absolute peak of the ST mountain should be excluded just to accommodate the local guy who was very good, although maybe not best at his position seems an odd stance.
(02-12-2024, 02:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I have no problem with Adrian Peterson getting in before Fred.
Peterson clearly had a better career than Fred.
The only RB there now who shouldn't have gotten in before Fred is Edgerrin James.
A poster mentioned Marshawn Lynch. Fred was better than Lynch as well. Lynch and Fred should both be in, but Fred first.
'twas me, and I agree that talent-wise Lynch and Freddy are near the same levels. The difference will be that Marshawn has a SB (or two?) to his name and a legendary play that most everyone has seen.
It's not the fairest criteria, but if one sets aside their teal spectacles, it can be quite foreseeable that Lynch would get the nod first, whether the stats support the decision or not.
Yeah people will mention how he was memorable with his personality, nickname, running style, but that's all just media exposure. None of that happens in Jacksonville in the 2000s.
As for the Super Bowl, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, Edgerrin James, Eric Dickerson, and LaDanian Tomlinson never even played in one. Thurman Thomas and Curtis Martin played but lost. It doesn't matter, they are all in the Hall (or will be shortly). It shouldn't matter. Not for the RB position.
(02-11-2024, 02:02 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-11-2024, 12:23 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Devin Hester over Fred Taylor is insane.
Total Yards
Hester - 14,455
Taylor - 14,079
Total TD
Hester - 37
Taylor - 74
Fumbles
Hester - 41
Taylor - 27
Receiving TD
Hester - 16
Taylor - 8
Rushing TD
Hester - 1
Taylor - 66
Points Scored
Hester - 222
Taylor - 447
Career Approximate Value
Hester - 55
Taylor - 109
6 Highest Approximate Value Seasons
Hester - 12, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Taylor - 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12
Playoff seasons:
Hester - 3
Taylor - 5
Playoff total yards
Hester - 515
Taylor - 683
Playoff Touchdowns
Hester - 1
Taylor - 4
Regular-Season games missed due to injury
Hester - 5
Taylor - 55
Jimmy Smith AND Fred Taylor deserve to be in the Hall of Fame over Devin Hester.
While I agree with the conclusion of your post, I cannot agree with your stats. Mine actually make the gap between them greater.
I show:
Total yards of 3427, not 14,455
Total TD's of 17 not 37
Total points would then be 102 not 222
Link below to my data can you show me yours?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...stDe99.htm
What is Hester’s total All Purpose Yards? It’s 14,455 not 3,427
Hester scored 37 career TD not 17
Rush TD - 1
Receiving TD - 16
Punt Return TD - 14
Kickoff Return TD - 5
Other TD - 1
37 touchdowns = 222 points my guy not 102
Here is a breakdown on Hester’s yards:
Rushing - 116
Receiving - 3,311
Punt Return - 3,695
Kickoff Return - 7,333
*Total Yards - 14,455
(02-15-2024, 01:11 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-11-2024, 02:02 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]While I agree with the conclusion of your post, I cannot agree with your stats. Mine actually make the gap between them greater.
I show:
Total yards of 3427, not 14,455
Total TD's of 17 not 37
Total points would then be 102 not 222
Link below to my data can you show me yours?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...stDe99.htm
What is Hester’s total All Purpose Yards? It’s 14,455 not 3,427
Hester scored 37 career TD not 17
Rush TD - 1
Receiving TD - 16
Punt Return TD - 14
Kickoff Return TD - 5
Other TD - 1
37 touchdowns = 222 points my guy not 102
Here is a breakdown on Hester’s yards:
Rushing - 116
Receiving - 3,311
Punt Return - 3,695
Kickoff Return - 7,333
*Total Yards - 14,455
Lol .... Hester had 295 kickoff returns. Back in the day, a player didn't even get hit on a kickoff return until he hit the 20-25 yard line. Based on 295 returns x an automatic 20 yards, pretty much anyone that could run a straight line could get 5,900 yards (of his 7,333 yards) before event taking a hit.
Heck, if you want to factor in all purpose yards, then Freddie T (14,079) only has 914 more yards than MJD (13,165) so why isn't MJD being talked about in the same manner as Freddie T? Because 90% of the return yards from a kickoff are a joke.
(02-15-2024, 03:32 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (02-15-2024, 01:11 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]What is Hester’s total All Purpose Yards? It’s 14,455 not 3,427
Hester scored 37 career TD not 17
Rush TD - 1
Receiving TD - 16
Punt Return TD - 14
Kickoff Return TD - 5
Other TD - 1
37 touchdowns = 222 points my guy not 102
Here is a breakdown on Hester’s yards:
Rushing - 116
Receiving - 3,311
Punt Return - 3,695
Kickoff Return - 7,333
*Total Yards - 14,455
Lol .... Hester had 295 kickoff returns. Back in the day, a player didn't even get hit on a kickoff return until he hit the 20-25 yard line. Based on 295 returns x an automatic 20 yards, pretty much anyone that could run a straight line could get 5,900 yards (of his 7,333 yards) before event taking a hit.
Heck, if you want to factor in all purpose yards, then Freddie T (14,079) only has 914 more yards than MJD (13,165) so why isn't MJD being talked about in the same manner as Freddie T? Because 90% of the return yards from a kickoff are a joke.
Because Jones-Drew had almost a 3 and half-season head start. I think about Fred sitting on the sideline with his helmet under his arm for 55 games, and then comes that 56th game, and the coach finally puts him in and says “go rush for 11,000 yards and get in the top 15 all time.”
*after the 2010 season Fred Taylor ranked 15th all-time in rushing yards. Another 1,000 yards would have put him 9th, just ahead of Jim Brown.
Does Matthew Slater make the HOF?
5 time All Pro, 10 time Pro Bolwer, 3 time SB champion
(02-20-2024, 01:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Does Matthew Slater make the HOF?
5 time All Pro, 10 time Pro Bolwer, 3 time SB chamion
I'm sure with the money he's made in his career he could make his way to Canton. Tickets are $45 a person, pretty sure he can afford that.
(02-20-2024, 01:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Does Matthew Slater make the HOF?
5 time All Pro, 10 time Pro Bolwer, 3 time SB champion
If Hestor can get in for special teams, I don't see why Slater can't?
(02-20-2024, 10:17 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2024, 01:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Does Matthew Slater make the HOF?
5 time All Pro, 10 time Pro Bolwer, 3 time SB champion
If Hestor can get in for special teams, I don't see why Slater can't?
I had to look up Matthew Slater to even know who he was. He's Kassim Osgood.
I wouldn't even say Slater makes the Hall of the Recognizable.
(02-21-2024, 08:39 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2024, 10:17 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]If Hestor can get in for special teams, I don't see why Slater can't?
I had to look up Matthew Slater to even know who he was. He's Kassim Osgood.
I wouldn't even say Slater makes the Hall of the Recognizable.
He's considered the best gunner in NFL history.