(08-15-2024, 10:29 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 09:31 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]This is why I keep harping on a legitimate Vice President of Football Operations. There needs to be an overseer for these two aspects of the franchise. We saw a little bit of finger pointing at the beginning of the year between Baalke and Pederson. It was just done and said in a professional manner and a lot of people probably didn't make much noise out of it.
Baalke basically said that the coaching staff also has to coach up and develop the players he's providing towards this roster. I can't remember the exact question that incited that response, however, it had something to do with the offensive line play I believe from one of the reporters that day.
But, again, a lot of this [BLEEP] can be put to rest with one more person in charge that knows what the [BLEEP] they're doing and can keep everybody in line and ultimately has the final say and power to override anybody in the room when they feel it necessary to do so.
Good chance we would have seen different outcomes in the past two drafts, especially in the mid to late rounds where we could have made some improvements to the trenches instead of double dipping at positions that made no sense then as they make no sense now. Such as the RB selections and the LB selections.
Traded up for Snoop at RB while bypassing on offensive lineman like Jamaree Salyer and Braxton Jones. And a number of other guys throughout the 3rd day that have provided at least 25+ games played for their respective teams.
I am fine with the idea of an EVP. However, not fine with the old farts that have been named. We already failed with TC, and recent posts have suggested Ozzie (he'll never leave BAL IMO), Belicheat (only as good as his GOAT of a QB, never really had an eye for talent and 72), Carroll (also 72, how much him vs. Schneider?)
If you're gonna go that route, I'd rather do it with someone who isn't walking into the sunset. I'd give anything to have been a fly on the wall for the past few offseasons and some of the darft decisions they've made. Seems so apparent to the casual fan, you can't fathom why they don't see the same.
The issue is that an EVP has to have had experience to make those final calls over everyone including guys with the experience and time in the league such as DP and Baalke. Plus whether or not you like Baalke's personnel decisions, he still has a reputation that he will do whatever politically to keep his job.
I just don't think that is something most FO persons who are in the early or middle part of their career can pull off.
(08-15-2024, 02:04 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 12:00 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]"Unguardable." Good gosh.
Although, watching the video, Trevor is holding the ball a long time before throwing that deep pass.
Agreed, we want our QB throwing deep passes immediately at the snap!
Half a second and a Hailmary. Just needs to throw it 50 yards up and deep instead of just deep.
(08-15-2024, 02:33 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 09:16 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Yup. We took Jordan Jefferson over the following offensive lineman:
Offensive Center: Tanor Bortolini
Offensive Center: Sedrick Van Pran
Offensive Guard: Mason McCormick
We took Maason Smith in RD2 over the following offensive lineman:
Offensive Center: Zach Frazier
Offensive Tackle/Guard: Patrick Paul
Offensive Tackle: Roger Rosengarten
Offensive Guard: Kingsley Suamataia
It'll be interesting how all of these players fair as rookies. The Maason Smith selection I can find the most forgiving. All things considered, Smith was once billed a top first round selection and his last year at LSU we slowly started seeing the player he could be in the pass rushing department coming off of his injury. Think he had top honors, or, was at least top three in pressures from his position last year.
It's the Jordan Jefferson selection that kind of surprised me. I was okay with the Javon Foster selection, but, man, I would have been really happy with Bortolini or Van Pran as a potential back-up Center with starting potential, as, they have the traits to start at this level. McCormick was also a guy I liked. I looked at him as this year's Cody Mauch type project.
Either way, if this offensive line continues to backslide in run blocking and they [BLEEP] the bed in pass protection, it'll fall back on this front office and coaching staff resting it's laurel's on just adding Morse via free agency and Foster via the draft.
I do have some hope for Steven Jones though out of Oregon. Was happy to see him picked up as an UDFA. He was out last week with the calf injury, but, it'll be fun seeing him at some point hopefully at 6'5, 340. I believe that would make him one of the biggest, if not, the biggest offensive lineman we currently have on the roster. Something we probably need out there.
Seeing this group of offensive linemen the Jaguars passed on makes me sick. It's always easy to have 20-20 hindsight, but lets look at the off-season moves as things stand now. While it is impossible to correctly evaluate the rookie class at this time, Brian Thomas Jr. looks like a great pick who gives the Jaguars the deep-threat they have been lacking. It wouldn't surprise me if he goes for 800 yds. and 7 touchdowns while opening things up for the other receivers and Etienne. This was a great pick and they landed additional picks to move back as a bonus.
Now for the negative. Maason Smith is a physical specimen who may turn out to be the next Chris Jones. If he does, I will gladly admit my mistake however the need for an interior offensive lineman was much greater. They had already added Armstead and Hamilton was expected to return to his 2022 form following his unfortunate health issues. Zack Frazier is already living up to his very high expectations and may quite possibly beat out Herbig as the starting center. Frazier also played guard his freshman season and could have started his career at this position until Mitch Morse was ready to give it up. Sort of like Brad Meester. Jordon Jefferson could still have been taken in round 4 to help improve the run defense.
Following the mistake in round 2, the Jags added insult to injury in round 4. Jefferson should be a solid nose tackle, but after passing on Frazier in round 2, McCormick or Bertolini had to be the pick in round 4. My preference would have been McCormick who would have contended for a starting spot during his rookie season. The small-school background may hold him back initially, but he has the toughness and other traits necessary for success in the NFL.
As things stand now, the best case scenario for the offensive line is for Ezra Cleveland to become the player the team envisioned when acquiring him from the Vikings. Trevor Lawrence needs Ezra to live up to his name's Hebrew meaning which is "helper." Lord only knows how much help they need on the interior of the offensive line but Ezra has to stay healthy! The rest of the line should be o.k. as long as there are no significant injuries. I just don't have the confidence in Blake Hance that the coaches apparently possess.
While it is likely too late to find significant upgrades at guard, I'd try giving the Steelers a call. They know the importance of the offensive line and have drafted Broderick Jones, Troy Fautanu, Zack Frazier and Mason McCormick during the past 2 drafts. Is it any surprise that they have NOT had a losing season since 2003! They may be willing to part with James Daniels, who was not given a new contract or Nate Herbig who has played mostly guard during his career. While neither player is elite, they would likely be upgrades over the current reserves at guard and could even contend for a starting spot.
Yeah. It's going to be something that comes up week in and week out until the line shows that it's dependable and capable of getting better than basement level marks as an overall unit.
Good point about the Steelers. Again, Baalke historically adds a lineman at some point. He's probably waiting to see where these next two games leaves him personnel wise before deciding to fork over a pick for a potential upgrade.
We'll see though.
(08-15-2024, 03:00 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 10:29 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]I am fine with the idea of an EVP. However, not fine with the old farts that have been named. We already failed with TC, and recent posts have suggested Ozzie (he'll never leave BAL IMO), Belicheat (only as good as his GOAT of a QB, never really had an eye for talent and 72), Carroll (also 72, how much him vs. Schneider?)
If you're gonna go that route, I'd rather do it with someone who isn't walking into the sunset. I'd give anything to have been a fly on the wall for the past few offseasons and some of the darft decisions they've made. Seems so apparent to the casual fan, you can't fathom why they don't see the same.
The issue is that an EVP has to have had experience to make those final calls over everyone including guys with the experience and time in the league such as DP and Baalke. Plus whether or not you like Baalke's personnel decisions, he still has a reputation that he will do whatever politically to keep his job.
I just don't think that is something most FO persons who are in the early or middle part of their career can pull off.
Thomas Dimitroff is out there somewhere.
(08-15-2024, 02:33 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 09:16 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Yup. We took Jordan Jefferson over the following offensive lineman:
Offensive Center: Tanor Bortolini
Offensive Center: Sedrick Van Pran
Offensive Guard: Mason McCormick
We took Maason Smith in RD2 over the following offensive lineman:
Offensive Center: Zach Frazier
Offensive Tackle/Guard: Patrick Paul
Offensive Tackle: Roger Rosengarten
Offensive Guard: Kingsley Suamataia
It'll be interesting how all of these players fair as rookies. The Maason Smith selection I can find the most forgiving. All things considered, Smith was once billed a top first round selection and his last year at LSU we slowly started seeing the player he could be in the pass rushing department coming off of his injury. Think he had top honors, or, was at least top three in pressures from his position last year.
It's the Jordan Jefferson selection that kind of surprised me. I was okay with the Javon Foster selection, but, man, I would have been really happy with Bortolini or Van Pran as a potential back-up Center with starting potential, as, they have the traits to start at this level. McCormick was also a guy I liked. I looked at him as this year's Cody Mauch type project.
Either way, if this offensive line continues to backslide in run blocking and they [BLEEP] the bed in pass protection, it'll fall back on this front office and coaching staff resting it's laurel's on just adding Morse via free agency and Foster via the draft.
I do have some hope for Steven Jones though out of Oregon. Was happy to see him picked up as an UDFA. He was out last week with the calf injury, but, it'll be fun seeing him at some point hopefully at 6'5, 340. I believe that would make him one of the biggest, if not, the biggest offensive lineman we currently have on the roster. Something we probably need out there.
Seeing this group of offensive linemen the Jaguars passed on makes me sick. It's always easy to have 20-20 hindsight, but lets look at the off-season moves as things stand now. While it is impossible to correctly evaluate the rookie class at this time, Brian Thomas Jr. looks like a great pick who gives the Jaguars the deep-threat they have been lacking. It wouldn't surprise me if he goes for 800 yds. and 7 touchdowns while opening things up for the other receivers and Etienne. This was a great pick and they landed additional picks to move back as a bonus.
Now for the negative. Maason Smith is a physical specimen who may turn out to be the next Chris Jones. If he does, I will gladly admit my mistake however the need for an interior offensive lineman was much greater. They had already added Armstead and Hamilton was expected to return to his 2022 form following his unfortunate health issues. Zack Frazier is already living up to his very high expectations and may quite possibly beat out Herbig as the starting center. Frazier also played guard his freshman season and could have started his career at this position until Mitch Morse was ready to give it up. Sort of like Brad Meester. Jordon Jefferson could still have been taken in round 4 to help improve the run defense.
Following the mistake in round 2, the Jags added insult to injury in round 4. Jefferson should be a solid nose tackle, but after passing on Frazier in round 2, McCormick or Bertolini had to be the pick in round 4. My preference would have been McCormick who would have contended for a starting spot during his rookie season. The small-school background may hold him back initially, but he has the toughness and other traits necessary for success in the NFL.
As things stand now, the best case scenario for the offensive line is for Ezra Cleveland to become the player the team envisioned when acquiring him from the Vikings. Trevor Lawrence needs Ezra to live up to his name's Hebrew meaning which is "helper." Lord only knows how much help they need on the interior of the offensive line but Ezra has to stay healthy! The rest of the line should be o.k. as long as there are no significant injuries. I just don't have the confidence in Blake Hance that the coaches apparently possess.
While it is likely too late to find significant upgrades at guard, I'd try giving the Steelers a call. They know the importance of the offensive line and have drafted Broderick Jones, Troy Fautanu, Zack Frazier and Mason McCormick during the past 2 drafts. Is it any surprise that they have NOT had a losing season since 2003! They may be willing to part with James Daniels, who was not given a new contract or Nate Herbig who has played mostly guard during his career. While neither player is elite, they would likely be upgrades over the current reserves at guard and could even contend for a starting spot.
One of the biggest issues for the Steeler the past few years has been bad offensive line play, especially running the ball. It was why they got killed for drafting RB Nagee a few years ago instead of addressing it then.
While I would agree that both McCormick or Bertolini would have made us feel a whole lot better about the line, neither appears to be projecting to start this year for their respective teams. So other than depth, I'm not sure how much of difference either would make for 2024.
And like you note, there is still time to pick up depth with TC cuts from other teams or trades.
Possibly even those exact guys
https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/tamp...j5bn9vve79
The Bucs are impressed with BTJ.
"No. 7. No. 7 is fast, No. 7 is a deep threat," McCollum told NFL Network's Sara Walsh when she asked him who has stood out offensively.
To think, we traded down 6 spots in the first round. Yikes.
(08-15-2024, 03:16 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 02:33 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]Seeing this group of offensive linemen the Jaguars passed on makes me sick. It's always easy to have 20-20 hindsight, but lets look at the off-season moves as things stand now. While it is impossible to correctly evaluate the rookie class at this time, Brian Thomas Jr. looks like a great pick who gives the Jaguars the deep-threat they have been lacking. It wouldn't surprise me if he goes for 800 yds. and 7 touchdowns while opening things up for the other receivers and Etienne. This was a great pick and they landed additional picks to move back as a bonus.
Now for the negative. Maason Smith is a physical specimen who may turn out to be the next Chris Jones. If he does, I will gladly admit my mistake however the need for an interior offensive lineman was much greater. They had already added Armstead and Hamilton was expected to return to his 2022 form following his unfortunate health issues. Zack Frazier is already living up to his very high expectations and may quite possibly beat out Herbig as the starting center. Frazier also played guard his freshman season and could have started his career at this position until Mitch Morse was ready to give it up. Sort of like Brad Meester. Jordon Jefferson could still have been taken in round 4 to help improve the run defense.
Following the mistake in round 2, the Jags added insult to injury in round 4. Jefferson should be a solid nose tackle, but after passing on Frazier in round 2, McCormick or Bertolini had to be the pick in round 4. My preference would have been McCormick who would have contended for a starting spot during his rookie season. The small-school background may hold him back initially, but he has the toughness and other traits necessary for success in the NFL.
As things stand now, the best case scenario for the offensive line is for Ezra Cleveland to become the player the team envisioned when acquiring him from the Vikings. Trevor Lawrence needs Ezra to live up to his name's Hebrew meaning which is "helper." Lord only knows how much help they need on the interior of the offensive line but Ezra has to stay healthy! The rest of the line should be o.k. as long as there are no significant injuries. I just don't have the confidence in Blake Hance that the coaches apparently possess.
While it is likely too late to find significant upgrades at guard, I'd try giving the Steelers a call. They know the importance of the offensive line and have drafted Broderick Jones, Troy Fautanu, Zack Frazier and Mason McCormick during the past 2 drafts. Is it any surprise that they have NOT had a losing season since 2003! They may be willing to part with James Daniels, who was not given a new contract or Nate Herbig who has played mostly guard during his career. While neither player is elite, they would likely be upgrades over the current reserves at guard and could even contend for a starting spot.
One of the biggest issues for the Steeler the past few years has been bad offensive line play, especially running the ball. It was why they got killed for drafting RB Nagee a few years ago instead of addressing it then.
While I would agree that both McCormick or Bertolini would have made us feel a whole lot better about the line, neither appears to be projecting to start this year for their respective teams. So other than depth, I'm not sure how much of difference either would make for 2024.
And like you note, there is still time to pick up depth with TC cuts from other teams or trades.
That's why they drafted all these quality linemen. It may take a year or two, but a line of Fautanu and Jones at tackle, Frazier at center and Seumalu and McCormick at guard should be top 10 for the next 5 years at the least, barring injuries. On the other hand, Baalke adds a 32 year old center and hopes that Cleveland can get healthy while also counting on a 7th round draft pick who missed his rookie season due to injury. That's the difference between the Steelers organization and the Jaguars.
(08-15-2024, 03:44 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 03:16 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]One of the biggest issues for the Steeler the past few years has been bad offensive line play, especially running the ball. It was why they got killed for drafting RB Nagee a few years ago instead of addressing it then.
While I would agree that both McCormick or Bertolini would have made us feel a whole lot better about the line, neither appears to be projecting to start this year for their respective teams. So other than depth, I'm not sure how much of difference either would make for 2024.
And like you note, there is still time to pick up depth with TC cuts from other teams or trades.
That's why they drafted all these quality linemen. It may take a year or two, but a line of Fautanu and Jones at tackle, Frazier at center and Seumalu and McCormick at guard should be top 10 for the next 5 years at the least, barring injuries. On the other hand, Baalke adds a 32 year old center and hopes that Cleveland can get healthy while also counting on a 7th round draft pick who missed his rookie season due to injury. That's the difference between the Steelers organization and the Jaguars.
But I feel you are ignoring that the Steelers have had a top 10 quality defense when healthy for like the last decade. So they haven't had to use picks to fill roster holes there.
Whereas the Jags haven't had a top 10 quality defense outside of 2017 and for a few fluke stretches of couple games to end 2022 and start 2023. So the Jags, had to figure out those team deficiencies as well. That is on top of changing the defensive structure/scheme which needed switching out a number of guys in the secondary that is still a big question for a lot of people.
I mean if you are trying to say the Steelers are overall better run than Jax, most will not argue with you there. But that being better run overall allowed the Steelers to invest way more draft capital on projection OL than the Jags are allow to do who have to fill all their holes immediately as the Jags window is now.
(08-15-2024, 11:01 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 10:31 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I think we all agree that the line has been neglected, but they did make some improvements, so let's see how it goes for a few games before we write off the whole season.
I've said it a hundred times, but here's 101
The two worst pieces of the five were LG and Center.
THEY ADDRESSED BOTH
Of course, now one of those guys is hurt (again)
Yes, I wanted a draft pick to be spent on IOL, and they didn't do it, but they did acquire multiple o-linemen that have a shot here. They didn't ignore the issues, they just didn't pick the 5th round guy a bunch of fans wanted or whatever.
You can't fix everything in one offseason, but they addressed A LOT of needs. May not have bolstered the guard spots enough as it turns out, but that book isn't written yet either. We'll see...
They maintained one (LG) and signed a band-aid at the other.
Grape jerb. All set, folks!
(08-15-2024, 02:40 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh no, we dominated today! What will you all have to complain about?
@probably says more about the state of the bucs than it does the state of the jags@
I dunno, I tried.
(08-15-2024, 04:48 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 02:40 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh no, we dominated today! What will you all have to complain about?
@probably says more about the state of the bucs than it does the state of the jags@
I dunno, I tried.
Bucs are a playoff team. I just don’t understand the constant negativity on this board. Yes the OL has some question marks but top to bottom the roster has not been this good in a looong time. Every team has holes to fill. Let’s just see how it plays out for christs sake!
(08-15-2024, 04:41 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 11:01 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I've said it a hundred times, but here's 101
The two worst pieces of the five were LG and Center.
THEY ADDRESSED BOTH
Of course, now one of those guys is hurt (again)
Yes, I wanted a draft pick to be spent on IOL, and they didn't do it, but they did acquire multiple o-linemen that have a shot here. They didn't ignore the issues, they just didn't pick the 5th round guy a bunch of fans wanted or whatever.
You can't fix everything in one offseason, but they addressed A LOT of needs. May not have bolstered the guard spots enough as it turns out, but that book isn't written yet either. We'll see...
They maintained one (LG) and signed a band-aid at the other.
Grape jerb. All set, folks!
What if, what if, the GM was right in his talent assessment and not reaching for needs. Gonna take 2-3 years but complaining he didn’t take a position just because we need that position is foolish.
(08-15-2024, 04:41 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 11:01 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I've said it a hundred times, but here's 101
The two worst pieces of the five were LG and Center.
THEY ADDRESSED BOTH
Of course, now one of those guys is hurt (again)
Yes, I wanted a draft pick to be spent on IOL, and they didn't do it, but they did acquire multiple o-linemen that have a shot here. They didn't ignore the issues, they just didn't pick the 5th round guy a bunch of fans wanted or whatever.
You can't fix everything in one offseason, but they addressed A LOT of needs. May not have bolstered the guard spots enough as it turns out, but that book isn't written yet either. We'll see...
They maintained one (LG) and signed a band-aid at the other.
Grape jerb. All set, folks!
If you wanna act like re-signing Cleveland after they traded for him while hurt weeks prior is "maintaining" that's fine.
I definitely don't see it that way.
He should be an upgrade for us if we could keep the injury bug off his back. So far, so bad in that regard.
They attempted to upgrade the two worst spots on the line. Remains to be seen what the result is.
(08-15-2024, 05:05 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 04:41 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]They maintained one (LG) and signed a band-aid at the other.
Grape jerb. All set, folks!
If you wanna act like re-signing Cleveland after they traded for him while hurt weeks prior is "maintaining" that's fine.
I definitely don't see it that way.
He should be an upgrade for us if we could keep the injury bug off his back. So far, so bad in that regard.
They attempted to upgrade the two worst spots on the line. Remains to be seen what the result is.
I agree Cleveland is an improvement for us and we are still hoping Little has a bounce back year. Not heard much about him so far which is a worry. He could be a big help if he can come in and play well.
Are joint practices over or are they going to run it back one more time tomorrow?
(08-15-2024, 08:38 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Are joint practices over or are they going to run it back one more time tomorrow?
I believe the official training camp is over. Now they switch to preseason practices.
(08-15-2024, 08:38 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Are joint practices over or are they going to run it back one more time tomorrow?
Joint practices are over. Was only two days.
Pretty sure Doug confirmed that Trevor isn't going to play against the Bucs this Saturday in preseason game 2. I don't know how many other starters will play though.
(08-15-2024, 04:58 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 04:48 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]@probably says more about the state of the bucs than it does the state of the jags@
I dunno, I tried.
Bucs are a playoff team. I just don’t understand the constant negativity on this board. Yes the OL has some question marks but top to bottom the roster has not been this good in a looong time. Every team has holes to fill. Let’s just see how it plays out for christs sake!
(08-15-2024, 04:41 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]They maintained one (LG) and signed a band-aid at the other.
Grape jerb. All set, folks!
What if, what if, the GM was right in his talent assessment and not reaching for needs. Gonna take 2-3 years but complaining he didn’t take a position just because we need that position is foolish.
1) allow me to introduce you to sarcasm tags.
2) The issue was not taking a G/C just for the sake of taking one. This darft was particularly deep at that position, which not only helps to fill the cabinet, but also presents great value in doing so. It wasn't a matter of reaching. You had very talented guys still available in the 4th and 5th rounds. Cripes, we coulda packaged some future picks to get back into the 4th or 5th and grab an interior guy if we really HAD to have a reserve DT or kick return specialist RB.
NOT taking advantage of a deep darft is what leads to reaching.
(08-15-2024, 06:47 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2024, 05:05 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]If you wanna act like re-signing Cleveland after they traded for him while hurt weeks prior is "maintaining" that's fine.
I definitely don't see it that way.
He should be an upgrade for us if we could keep the injury bug off his back. So far, so bad in that regard.
They attempted to upgrade the two worst spots on the line. Remains to be seen what the result is.
I agree Cleveland is an improvement for us and we are still hoping Little has a bounce back year. Not heard much about him so far which is a worry. He could be a big help if he can come in and play well.
We re-signed our acquisition. We banked on him being better once he healed. Jury's still out on that. If he returns to form I'll be happy to say the gamble worked out. But to not build depth behind a guy who already has injury history (as does the guy to his right, mind you) is not really good preparation.
I'll grant that we
addressed the need. I can't say that we improved our situation....yet.