Lol, I'm with the people that are tired of leo's and ottos.
I get that each defensive philosophy will have positions that will have different responsibilities, so it's cool.
But at the end of the day a leo is a DE, right? At the end of the day, that's what it is isn't it?
I mean, the Seattle defense is a 4-3 that plays lot of 3 deep zone in the secondary and is adverse to blitzing. I mean that's what we've been watching for the last 3 years, right?
If the question is who's the best DE, you'd have to give the nod to Fowler based on his college tape. But the question about his knee seems to be getting ignored.
Yannick may out perform him just based on health until Fowler gets to 100%. There's no guarantee with Fowler until we see what he's got come September. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer, but I am tempering my expectations on Fowler this year.
I think our interior d-line is gonna be the heros of that corps.
Quote:Lol, I'm with the people that are tired of leo's and ottos.
I get that each defensive philosophy will have positions that will have different responsibilities, so it's cool.
But at the end of the day a leo is a DE, right? At the end of the day, that's what it is isn't it?
I mean, the Seattle defense is a 4-3 that plays lot of 3 deep zone in the secondary and is adverse to blitzing. I mean that's what we've been watching for the last 3 years, right?
If the question is who's the best DE, you'd have to give the nod to Fowler based on his college tape. But the question about his knee seems to be getting ignored.
Yannick may out perform him just based on health until Fowler gets to 100%. There's no guarantee with Fowler until we see what he's got come September. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer, but I am tempering my expectations on Fowler this year.
I think our interior d-line is gonna be the heros of that corps.
People just use the term LEO so they can seem like they know more about football then everyone else.
They seriously act like this is the first time DEs have ever stood up occasionally.
OTTO, who's bright idea to come up with another dumb name for a OLB. Oh yeah, our bright coach Bradley came up with it.
Quote:OTTO, who's bright idea to come up with another dumb name for a OLB. Oh yeah, our bright coach Bradley came up with it.
that damn coach coming with verbiage! Who does things like that!
Quote:that damn coach coming with verbiage! Who does things like that!
Drake sucks bro
Quote:OTTO, who's bright idea to come up with another dumb name for a OLB. Oh yeah, our bright coach Bradley came up with it.
Yeah, and how come telvin Smith doesn't get a cool position name?? He's by far the best player on our defense last year. If anyone deserves a cool name it's that nasty man.
Quote:Obviously. I've seen the explanation for a LEO for about 4 years now.
Btw, how are Jason Babin, Chris Clemons, and Dante Fowler "undersized weak side DEs"? They all played LEO, and are each prototypical DE sized.
News flash, just because one coach calls it a "LEO" doesn't mean it's some new kind of position.
<6'3'' 260lbs is not prototypical defensive end size.
Quote:<6'3'' 260lbs is not prototypical defensive end size.
Lol ok
Dante Fowler is 6'3 261. Not even close to being undersized.
I am football. And so can you!
Quote:lol learn football
I am slowly, clearly I should know a 6'3 261 is an undersized DE.
Prototypical defensive end size is 6'5'' 270+ look at Ansah, Pierre-Paul, Chandler Jones, Cameron Jordan, etc. That's what the point of contention with Fowler playing DE coming out was, the fact he was undersized and was more suited to play 3-4 OLB. Fowler plays with enough strength and effort that he could probably get by playing DE in a traditional 4-3 but he would have had to bulk back up to 270 and he just wasn't as explosive or fast for that weight. Fowler can play DE at 255lbs in this scheme because the LEO is not a traditional 4-3 DE, which is why it has a specific designation. And often the LEO is not 255-260lbs, they are smaller. A LEO is different from a traditional 4-3 end, accept it.
6'3'' 260lbs is ideal range for a 3-4 OLB. Which is good for the LEO because like I said a LEO is basically a 3-4 OLB with his hands in the dirt in a 3-point stance instead of standing up.
Quote:Prototypical defensive end size is 6'5'' 270+ look at Ansah, Pierre-Paul, Chandler Jones, Cameron Jordan, etc. That's what the point of contention with Fowler playing DE coming out was, the fact he was undersized and was more suited to play 3-4 OLB. Fowler plays with enough strength and effort that he could probably get by playing DE in a traditional 4-3 but he would have had to bulk back up to 270 and he just wasn't as explosive or fast for that weight. Fowler can play DE at 255lbs in this scheme because the LEO is not a traditional 4-3 DE, which is why it has a specific designation. And often the LEO is not 255-260lbs, they are smaller. A LEO is different from a traditional 4-3 end, accept it.
6'3'' 260lbs is ideal range for a 3-4 OLB. Which is good for the LEO because like I said a LEO is basically a 3-4 OLB with his hands in the dirt in a 3-point stance instead of standing up.
2 inches in height and 9 extra pounds doesn't turn a DE into a LEO, it's a skill set.
Quote:Prototypical defensive end size is 6'5'' 270+ look at Ansah, Pierre-Paul, Chandler Jones, Cameron Jordan, etc. That's what the point of contention with Fowler playing DE coming out was, the fact he was undersized and was more suited to play 3-4 OLB. Fowler plays with enough strength and effort that he could probably get by playing DE in a traditional 4-3 but he would have had to bulk back up to 270 and he just wasn't as explosive or fast for that weight. Fowler can play DE at 255lbs in this scheme because the LEO is not a traditional 4-3 DE, which is why it has a specific designation. And often the LEO is not 255-260lbs, they are smaller. A LEO is different from a traditional 4-3 end, accept it.
6'3'' 260lbs is ideal range for a 3-4 OLB. Which is good for the LEO because like I said a LEO is basically a 3-4 OLB with his hands in the dirt in a 3-point stance instead of standing up.
2 inches in height and 9 extra pounds doesn't turn a DE into a LEO, it's a skill set.
Quote:Prototypical defensive end size is 6'5'' 270+ look at Ansah, Pierre-Paul, Chandler Jones, Cameron Jordan, etc. That's what the point of contention with Fowler playing DE coming out was, the fact he was undersized and was more suited to play 3-4 OLB. Fowler plays with enough strength and effort that he could probably get by playing DE in a traditional 4-3 but he would have had to bulk back up to 270 and he just wasn't as explosive or fast for that weight. Fowler can play DE at 255lbs in this scheme because the LEO is not a traditional 4-3 DE, which is why it has a specific designation. And often the LEO is not 255-260lbs, they are smaller. A LEO is different from a traditional 4-3 end, accept it.
6'3'' 260lbs is ideal range for a 3-4 OLB. Which is good for the LEO because like I said a LEO is basically a 3-4 OLB with his hands in the dirt in a 3-point stance instead of standing up.
My point is, Dante is a whopping 2 inches and nine pounds away from your definition of "prototypical".
If Clowney was here, he'd be playing LEO, it's a skillet, not an extra 2 inches and 9 pounds.
You do realize the body type often informs the skillset? The LEO needs to be extremely quick, which is why they will often give up size for speed at the position. Ansah and those guys could play LEO because they are freak athletes, but guys like Vic Beasley and the like cannot do the reverse and play traditional 4-3 defensive end.
Quote:You do realize the body type often informs the skillset? The LEO needs to be extremely quick, which is why they will often give up size for speed at the position. Ansah and those guys could play LEO because they are freak athletes, but guys like Vic Beasley and the like cannot do the reverse and play traditional 4-3 defensive end.
But Jason Babin can? He's also 267, is he an oversized OLB now?
Quote:My point is, Dante is a whopping 2 inches and nine pounds away from your definition of "prototypical".
If Clowney was here, he'd be playing LEO, it's a skillet, not an extra 2 inches and 9 pounds.
Just because a freak athletic 4-3 DE can play LEO does not change the basic conceptual difference between the two positions. You're arguing about players who are freaks at their positions. Fowler should not be as fast as he is for his size. Neither should Clowney. The AVERAGE 4-3 DE is much too slow to play LEO, which needs to be very fast off the line, and the average LEO is much too small to play traditional 4-3 DE and hold up in the run game.
Quote:Just because a freak athletic 4-3 DE can play LEO does not change the basic conceptual difference between the two positions. You're arguing about players who are freaks at their positions. Fowler should not be as fast as he is for his size. Neither should Clowney. The AVERAGE 4-3 DE is much too slow to play LEO, which needs to be very fast off the line, and the average LEO is much too small to play traditional 4-3 DE and hold up in the run game.
Clowney is only 266. By your definition he would be undersized as a DE.
Quote:But Jason Babin can? He's also 267, is he an oversized OLB now?
Babin was 260 at the combine, just because a team lists him at 267 doesn't mean he is. You can't just throw out "Babin can" without mentioning what system he actually played traditional 4-3 end in.
You're really arguing semantics and just showing you barely know what you're talking about.
The general range for a 3-4 OLB is 6'2''-6'3'' 245-260lbs.
The general range for a 4-3 DE is 6'4''-6'5'' 265lbs-280lbs
A LEO is general between 6'2''-6'3'' 240-255lbs with 260lbs being the high end (guys like Avril and Babin, we've cut Fowler down to 255lbs).
Guys in that 265-280 range are usually too slow to play LEO see Bosa. The ideal LEO is someone like Fowler who is big enough to be a factor in the run game but can still get after the QB with speed. Which is why Cliff Avril is the starting LEO for Seattle. Fowler closes body comparison is Justin Houston. Another guy big enough to be a factor in the run game and play down on the line but is an OLB because he's better suited at his playing weight and size to be that. It's not about what they can do, it's about what their best at doing. Theoretically Bosa can play LEO, but it wouldn't be his ideal position. Likewise, theoretically Fowler can play traditional 4-3 end but it wouldn't be his best position. And so on and so forth. Football has these designations and terms for a reason and saying "hurr durr jus git futball playas" is a gross simplification of the process. But do you, I've said what I had to.