Quote:And anyway, if Jack were participating yesterday, he would have put up all those same numbers at 245lbs, as he will show at his proday. And he still would not go top 4 either.
lol.
I can agree with some of this. Jack is going to put up absurd numbers at his pro day and it wouldn't shock me if he ran his 40 in the low 4.4's. He's a freak athlete too.
Quote:Yep, it's been true for a while now but it's finally being accepted as pretty common knowledge.
Naw not yet. It has become of higher priorty than is used to be but it still doesnt trump Qb, Lt, De, Cb. For us we need a good saftey but honestly id say get that pass rush fixed first then get a safety.
I cant think of any team with a high profile safety and no pass rush. Maybe a well known SS but not FS.
8 of the top 10 PFF safeties made the playoffs this year, including both super bowl teams. Only two top 10 PFF LTs made the playoffs this year (Whitworth and Trent Williams did), and they were both first round exits. Bakhtiari probably would have made 3 if he didn't get hurt, but still the point is clear. You are going to win a whole lot more games with Earl Thomas with Joe Thomas.
LT just isn't nearly as important now for many reasons. Mostly because pass rushes are far more exotic. Stud LT vs stud pass rusher all game just doesn't happen anymore. To lesser but still important degrees, QBs release times are way down and they are also more mobile in general across the board than in the past. RT is pretty much just as important as LT now, and interior oline has never been more important.
Quote:I cant think of any team with a high profile safety and no pass rush. Maybe a well known SS but not FS.
We aren't talking FS vs a pass rusher we could have a good equal debate about that. We're talking FS vs pass protector...and the truth is just that FS is far more important than any one oline position. I really can't believe this is a controversial statement...
Quote:We aren't talking FS vs a pass rusher we could have a good equal debate about that. We're talking FS vs pass protector...and the truth is just that FS is far more important than any one oline position. I really can't believe this is a controversial statement...
At least quote my whole statement. I built a pretty decent agrument that you side stepped lol.
FS is still not as important as LT. An LT has himself to rely on. A dominant LT can make your offense much better. If you have no pass rush a FS would be obsolete. They depend directly on the sucess of other players in front of them. It doesnt get much further away from the ball that a FS lined up 30 yards down the field lol.
This is why i stated i cant think of one team that has a dominant safety with out any pass rush. They depend to much on other players to be considered premium positions. All those premium position can effectively beat their man without much assistance from others (please do not make this about a qb needed a wr to catch the ball, brady and manning have made scrubs into gods lol) and tip the game in their teams favor.
FS is no longer a nothinh positiom like it used to be but its still not close to the primary premium positions.
And to directly respond to you statement. Im talking about LT. FS may have more value than a RT or G but not a LT.
LT is more important than FS.
Quote:At least quote my whole statement. I built a pretty decent agrument that you side stepped lol.
FS is still not as important as LT. An LT has himself to rely on. A dominant LT can make your offense much better. If you have no pass rush a FS would be obsolete. They depend directly on the sucess of other players in front of them. It doesnt get much further away from the ball that a FS lined up 30 yards down the field lol.
This is why i stated i cant think of one team that has a dominant safety with out any pass rush. They depend to much on other players to be considered premium positions. All those premium position can effectively beat their man without much assistance from others (please do not make this about a qb needed a wr to catch the ball, brady and manning have made scrubs into gods lol) and tip the game in their teams favor.
FS is no longer a nothinh positiom like it used to be but its still not close to the primary premium positions.
And to directly respond to you statement. Im talking about LT. FS may have more value than a RT or G but not a LT.
The thing is, I think a lot of people are really buying the hype of the Broncos, which is why pass rushers is the "in thing" again. Yes, pass rushers will always be valued possibly only behind QB. LT, naturally would be high on that list as its always been but I also see why KY thinks its no longer the case:
- LTs are not as skilled coming in due to college offenses
- Quick passing game. Teams can get rid of the ball quick now that unless you have elite pass rushers, they can get the ball out before the rushers get to the QB (more on this later)
But I also don't agree that FS are that high. Maybe for *our* scheme which does feature the FS a bit, I can see it being higher. But for a team that runs a base Cover 2? I can't imagine they'd have FS that high in their priority list.
Now back to the quick passing game...
Bronco's DE had a ridiculous run all the way to the SB, but a lot of people forget that they also have speedy linebackers and smaller fast corners (that play physical). Not to take away from Miller/Ware (and also Jackson and Wolf as extension)...but if that secondary and LB group are slow...teams would have been able to counter with quick passes. But because of the range of those guys, teams couldn't do it.
What I'm saying is that the Broncos was a perfect storm (and kudos to whoever drafted/built their team/scheme).
Also, keep in mind that in most cases, teams only have one *elite* pass rusher (if that). Which means that, if you also have an *elite* LT, then the defensive coordinator can lessen his value by moving the pass rusher to the other side.
On the other hand, an elite FS can cover so much ground. Even if you move your star WR/RB/TE around, the FS can still dictate what your defense does rather than the offense.
Quote:The thing is, I think a lot of people are really buying the hype of the Broncos, which is why pass rushers is the "in thing" again. Yes, pass rushers will always be valued possibly only behind QB. LT, naturally would be high on that list as its always been but I also see why KY thinks its no longer the case:
- LTs are not as skilled coming in due to college offenses
- Quick passing game. Teams can get rid of the ball quick now that unless you have elite pass rushers, they can get the ball out before the rushers get to the QB (more on this later)
But I also don't agree that FS are that high. Maybe for *our* scheme which does feature the FS a bit, I can see it being higher. But for a team that runs a base Cover 2? I can't imagine they'd have FS that high in their priority list.
Now back to the quick passing game...
Bronco's DE had a ridiculous run all the way to the SB, but a lot of people forget that they also have speedy linebackers and smaller fast corners (that play physical). Not to take away from Miller/Ware (and also Jackson and Wolf as extension)...but if that secondary and LB group are slow...teams would have been able to counter with quick passes. But because of the range of those guys, teams couldn't do it.
What I'm saying is that the Broncos was a perfect storm (and kudos to whoever drafted/built their team/scheme).
Also, keep in mind that in most cases, teams only have one *elite* pass rusher (if that). Which means that, if you also have an *elite* LT, then the defensive coordinator can lessen his value by moving the pass rusher to the other side.
On the other hand, an elite FS can cover so much ground. Even if you move your star WR/RB/TE around, the FS can still dictate what your defense does rather than the offense.
regardless, if you move that pass rusher to the other side the QBs blind side is still protected with an elite LT
Quote:The thing is, I think a lot of people are really buying the hype of the Broncos, which is why pass rushers is the "in thing" again. Yes, pass rushers will always be valued possibly only behind QB. LT, naturally would be high on that list as its always been but I also see why KY thinks its no longer the case:
- LTs are not as skilled coming in due to college offenses
- Quick passing game. Teams can get rid of the ball quick now that unless you have elite pass rushers, they can get the ball out before the rushers get to the QB (more on this later)
But I also don't agree that FS are that high. Maybe for *our* scheme which does feature the FS a bit, I can see it being higher. But for a team that runs a base Cover 2? I can't imagine they'd have FS that high in their priority list.
Now back to the quick passing game...
Bronco's DE had a ridiculous run all the way to the SB, but a lot of people forget that they also have speedy linebackers and smaller fast corners (that play physical). Not to take away from Miller/Ware (and also Jackson and Wolf as extension)...but if that secondary and LB group are slow...teams would have been able to counter with quick passes. But because of the range of those guys, teams couldn't do it.
What I'm saying is that the Broncos was a perfect storm (and kudos to whoever drafted/built their team/scheme).
Also, keep in mind that in most cases, teams only have one *elite* pass rusher (if that). Which means that, if you also have an *elite* LT, then the defensive coordinator can lessen his value by moving the pass rusher to the other side.
On the other hand, an elite FS can cover so much ground. Even if you move your star WR/RB/TE around, the FS can still dictate what your defense does rather than the offense.
Now are we talking winninh a superbowl or just in general. Most teams that win superbowls have multiple pass rushers. Pass rushers have always been the key to success.
I feel like you are kond of making my point. A dominant LT removes the best pass rusher which then allows you to double or chip or good players on the defensive front. A good FS can cover a lot of ground but I in my life have never seen a FS who can play like that out side of Ed Reed. He was a special player. Now if you can get me an Ed Reed id agree with you all day. But what other FS has played the game that can cover sidelines to sideline, los to pylon (literally lol)? I have never seen one that good before him or after him.
And again if that FS has no rush in front of him he wont dictate anything but getting bombed up after being on the field for so long. You cant consistently chase guys for 6-7 seconds every play. Fatigue will set in. Von Miller hell Chandler Jones will dictate what you offense can do. And tell that short pass game stuff to Cam and Brady lol.
If you have guys that can get to the qb fast your corners can play tight and up close. You can sit on routes and jump everything cause you know the ball is coming out quick. A FS with no rush in feont of him does not make this happen. A FS with rush in front of him gives the CB more confidence to jump routes because they know everything deep is covered up.
Ed Reed or Boselli? Who would you take?
Im not saying we shouldnt draft Ramsey. Um just saying he wont be as effective without a pass rush lol.
Quote:Ed Reed or Boselli?
Thats hard to say because you gave me the best FS versus one of the best LTs ever. In this instance ill take Ed Reed. The issue is will there ever be another player to his caliber? They would have to be that good for me to even pass over Tyron Smith. If the question is Tyron Smith or Brian Dawkins Smith all day. When theyre a future HOFer it kind of muddles the terms because they did special things no one else has done.
Quote:BOSELLI
How many Super Bowls did Boselli win? Reed is a game changer. The Panthers and Broncos made the SB with poop LTs
Everyone is going to assume Ramsey is playing safety in the nfl?
Quote:Hmmm.
Sprinter and long jumper performs well in sprinting and long jumping...
Was anyone really surprised?
Agreed. I don't think the combine really did anything to his stock. Everyone knew he was a great athlete.
Quote:I'm still not completely sold on Ramsey. The numbers are great, but I don't see it still. I'm sold on Jack and now Hargreaves. I wasn't completely sold on Hargreaves until today. If he can play FS, which I think he could, him or Jack and I'm good!!
GO JAGS!!
I agree with you on Ramsey but not Hargreaves. I'm a big Gator and I didn't like the way he performed in this years bowl game and he's not very big. I wouldn't mind seeing us sign Janoris Jenkins who's better. Maybe draft J Tabor next year.I'm thinking Jack or Bucker at 5.
Quote:How many Super Bowls did Boselli win? Reed is a game changer. The Panthers and Broncos made the SB with poop LTs
I thought the question was do you want an elite tackle or an elite FS?
We'll get a great player at 5, so stop panicking.
Also, the ego maniacs in this thread! Wow
Quote:Ed Reed or Boselli? Who would you take?
Reed. The days of Bruce Smith and Jason Taylor lining up across from Boselli and just getting abused all damn day are gone. In today's NFL they would simply move Smith or Taylor to the other side and let some poor sacrificial lamb be slaughtered, while Boselli's effect is also neutered at the same time.