the great Randy Moss (and i believe Mike Irvin) said that he doesn't care how you catch the ball, just so long as you catch it.
in short, get out of here with the body catching vs hand catching stuff. who cares as long as you catch the ball.
you guys and your technical, wannabe coach terms.
Quote:the great Randy Moss (and i believe Mike Irvin) said that he doesn't care how you catch the ball, just so long as you catch it.
in short, get out of here with the body catching vs hand catching stuff. who cares as long as you catch the ball.
you guys and your technical, wannabe coach terms.
I can not stand agreeing with you, but I have to here.
@trunt
come on, homey. Hate is a strong word. Yes, we may disagree, but let's not hate
good morning to you
Quote:Where do you think Telvin Smith should rank on this list? After Denard Robinson, Smith was the next player that came to mind.
Yes to Telvin.
While I'm not surprised that teammates voted Lee, I'd probably put Denard and Telvin above him not having seen as much of Lee as they have.
The lateral ground Telvin covers is insane sometimes.
Quote:the great Randy Moss (and i believe Mike Irvin) said that he doesn't care how you catch the ball, just so long as you catch it.
in short, get out of here with the body catching vs hand catching stuff. who cares as long as you catch the ball.
you guys and your technical, wannabe coach terms.
Awwww. What happened to "respecting my opinion?"
LOL
I actually agree that a little too much is made of the "body catch" thing. It comes from reading too many scouting reports in the off season.
Jerry Sullivan, however, does preach a hand catching technique to this WR corps, so its not a wanna-be-coach term. It's what our beloved Jags receivers are being coached week in and week out.
Quote:By what criteria are we judging athleticism? Alualu is a pretty average guy from start to finish, both in terms of ability and athleticism. While Marshall's transition from QB to CB is impressive, he's not exactly fast out there. He's tall, lanky and quick. Some modicum of exceptional speed should be part of evaluating athleticism imo, and while guys like Telvin absolutely blow the doors off of other players their size and position, Marshall would be somewhere mid-pack at corner.
Marshall is pretty quick out there. As far as raw speed, his combine 40 was virtually identical to Marquis Lee's .
Only using the 40 yard dash is a terrible measure for athleticism.
Quote:By what criteria are we judging athleticism? Alualu is a pretty average guy from start to finish, both in terms of ability and athleticism. While Marshall's transition from QB to CB is impressive, he's not exactly fast out there. He's tall, lanky and quick. Some modicum of exceptional speed should be part of evaluating athleticism imo, and while guys like Telvin absolutely blow the doors off of other players their size and position, Marshall would be somewhere mid-pack at corner.
Marshall is just as fast if not faster than Richard Sherman.
Quote:Only using the 40 yard dash is a terrible measure for athleticism. You have to include things like lateral agility and leaping ability as well.
Oops I meant to edit the first post, not quote lol.
I would also really include things like functional strength and hand eye coordination too.
Quote:He has 7 catches on the season this year. 2 drops. Don't mistake targets for drops.
You've seen 2 of the 7 catches were clearly with his hands. Here's another. I really don't feel comfortable calling him a body-catcher after watching his catches from this season on rewind. I just don't see it.
His 17 yard catch vs the Titans - I also watched - and he had his hands out in front of his face mask on arrival of the pass on that one too.
![[Image: ukOwjY.gif]](https://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-16-2015/ukOwjY.gif)
Uhm...he corralled that ball with his two hands and his chest?
Quote:He has 7 catches on the season this year. 2 drops. Don't mistake targets for drops.
You've seen 2 of the 7 catches were clearly with his hands. Here's another. I really don't feel comfortable calling him a body-catcher after watching his catches from this season on rewind. I just don't see it.
His 17 yard catch vs the Titans - I also watched - and he had his hands out in front of his face mask on arrival of the pass on that one too.
7 catches is such a small sample size that its not even worthy of being considered a sample size. Lee's ball skills had been in question coming into the draft. ARob had a habit of letting the ball get to his body in PSU and also his rookie year, but this is obviously negated by ARob's insane ball skills and catch radius.
Since we're talking about finding videos of Lee's poor technique, I was able to find one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jcCSU-sFRs
EIDT: 2013 highlight video (fast forward to like 50 sec. the first parts are such USC hype crap)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbr_fOdgD2s
Quite a few of his catches, even in a highlight reel, are corralled by him reaching out (but not catching with his hands) then he pulls them in to his body for the catch.
It's tough to be the best athlete when you can't stay healthy. At least in my opinion.
Quote:7 catches is such a small sample size that its not even worthy of being considered a sample size. Lee's ball skills had been in question coming into the draft. ARob had a habit of letting the ball get to his body in PSU and also his rookie year, but this is obviously negated by ARob's insane ball skills and catch radius.
Since we're talking about finding videos of Lee's poor technique, I was able to find one
Quite a few of his catches, even in a highlight reel, are corralled by him reaching out (but not catching with his hands) then he pulls them in to his body for the catch.
college??? for real???? C'mon.
Two years with Sully don't count now?
And that ball he "corralled" was first controlled with his hands a foot in front of his face mask. There's this thing that has to happen AFTER you catch the ball called "tucking it." Should he hold it out in front of his face for a second with three defenders closing? I think you are looking too hard for what you apparently want to see.
You seem to think his "hand development" (or lack of) is a big deal. I don't. Let's just move on.
I read this thread and I understand the back and forth between the Marquis Lee supporters and the detractors of Lee.
But can I just mention one thing: How fast/quick one is does not make one a superior athlete from another player that may not be as fast or quick.
Also... How quickly one accelerates does not make one a better athlete from someone that doesn't accelerate as quick.
I think Lee may be the most "talented" receiver in terms of overall speed. I'll concede his all around speed to any one that wants to argue that point.
I'm a child of the 80's so I remember Chicago's Willie Gault. That dude was a burner. He was a world class runner. He actually competed in Olympic trials in terms of running. 100 yard dash. 200 yard dash. 400 yard dash. Will Gualt was world class.
The 85 bears used Willie to stretch the D and used him on special teams. There were several games I remember Gault burned the CB on a fly route. The dude was a burner. But he wasn't an "athlete" in terms of what it means to play football.
Yeah, being very fast or speedy is important in football. But to be an "Athlete" means you have world class hand/eye reflex. It means you have world class toughness. It means you understand mental fortitude. It means you are a bit crazier than normal humans--- You will go further than other will physically.
Lee is fast. He's quick. He's able to accelerate beyond most players. He's a sprinter.
But just because one has a talent in terms of speed does not make him a better "Athlete" from someone that may be slower but has more brains, heart, and fortitude to plow through pain...
Lee isn't the best athlete on this team. He's not even in the top 5 "Most Athletic Jaguars". What Lee will hopefully be is the fastest Jaguar. And that is a great thing, we need a Willie Gault. But just because someone is fast doesn't make them a better athlete than someone like Poz, or DRob, or Yeldon, or Telvin, or Hurns, or heck anyone that actually plays football. Lee is a runner.
Runner's aren't athletes. They're just runners.
Quote:I read this thread and I understand the back and forth between the Marquis Lee supporters and the detractors of Lee.
But can I just mention one thing: How fast/quick one is does not make one a superior athlete from another player that may not be as fast or quick.
Also... How quickly one accelerates does not make one a better athlete from someone that doesn't accelerate as quick.
I think Lee may be the most "talented" receiver in terms of overall speed. I'll concede his all around speed to any one that wants to argue that point.
I'm a child of the 80's so I remember Chicago's Willie Gault. That dude was a burner. He was a world class runner. He actually competed in Olympic trials in terms of running. 100 yard dash. 200 yard dash. 400 yard dash. Will Gualt was world class.
The 85 bears used Willie to stretch the D and used him on special teams. There were several games I remember Gault burned the CB on a fly route. The dude was a burner. But he wasn't an "athlete" in terms of what it means to play football.
Yeah, being very fast or speedy is important in football. But to be an "Athlete" means you have world class hand/eye reflex. It means you have world class toughness. It means you understand mental fortitude. It means you are a bit crazier than normal humans--- You will go further than other will physically.
Lee is fast. He's quick. He's able to accelerate beyond most players. He's a sprinter.
But just because one has a talent in terms of speed does not make him a better "Athlete" from someone that may be slower but has more brains, heart, and fortitude to plow through pain...
Lee isn't the best athlete on this team. He's not even in the top 5 "Most Athletic Jaguars". What Lee will hopefully be is the fastest Jaguar. And that is a great thing, we need a Willie Gault. But just because someone is fast doesn't make them a better athlete than someone like Poz, or DRob, or Yeldon, or Telvin, or Hurns, or heck anyone that actually plays football. Lee is a runner.
Runner's aren't athletes. They're just runners.
Yeah, the best athletes are people who can make superhuman physical activities look easy. You could put them in any athletic event and they would just naturally be better than you.
* to me Allen Robinson is a better athlete than Marqise Lee.
DRob and Lee are great track runners with mediocre football skills. They may make the occasional big play because of their straight line speed, but give me ARob anyday as a Football athlete. The way he can turn around and high point a ball with a big vertical leap is way more athletic in my mind than running fast in a straight line.
Quote:Yeah, the best athletes are people who can make superhuman physical activities look easy. You could put them in any athletic event and they would just naturally be better than you.ch
But you do see that there is a difference, right?
Like an "athlete" that can run really fast isn't really athletic. They just run really fast.
In my opinion, Marquis Lee and Ace Sanders are a great comparison. Sanders was a burner. He was given so many opportunities to show his talent.
And there was a play he made in the Gabbert years where I thought, "Oh man" we got our burner. But Ace was just not mentally or physically athletic. He was just fast. He "flashed".
Marquis Lee is Ace Sanders. We give Lee so many opportunities to make a play. He just does what he does. But what he does is not football athletic. He's just fast. But just being fast/speedy without having any football IQ, means you are talented. But you are not an "athlete".
Greene is more of an athlete than Lee.
But hey, I could be wrong. Lee has some time to prove me wrong. But at this point, I see him very similar to Ace Sanders. The dude has so much physical talent. But I don't think he's really athletic in terms of playing football.
Running does not make one "athletic". It just makes you physically talented. There is a difference.
I think the best sportsmen can play multiple sports at a high level and usually have good body cobtrol/coordination. I would put someone like Tony Romo down as a great talent, can basically pick up any sport and get good at it. Could well be on the PGA.
Quote:But you do see that there is a difference, right?
Like an "athlete" that can run really fast isn't really athletic. They just run really fast.
In my opinion, Marquis Lee and Ace Sanders are a great comparison. Sanders was a burner. He was given so many opportunities to show his talent.
And there was a play he made in the Gabbert years where I thought, "Oh man" we got our burner. But Ace was just not mentally or physically athletic. He was just fast. He "flashed".
Marquis Lee is Ace Sanders. We give Lee so many opportunities to make a play. He just does what he does. But what he does is not football athletic. He's just fast. But just being fast/speedy without having any football IQ, means you are talented. But you are not an "athlete".
Greene is more of an athlete than Lee.
But hey, I could be wrong. Lee has some time to prove me wrong. But at this point, I see him very similar to Ace Sanders. The dude has so much physical talent. But I don't think he's really athletic in terms of playing football.
Running does not make one "athletic". It just makes you physically talented. There is a difference.
This is worded like you thought I was disagreeing with you, which I wasn't. It's the same way Blake is a better athlete than Blaine, even though Blaine had better combine numbers.
Although, I don't see the Marqise Lee-Ace Sanders comparison. They are pretty different to me. Ace Sanders wasn't really physically talented or naturally athletic. He was a very mediocre late round pick of one of the historically worst drafts of recent history.
Quote:This is worded like you thought I was disagreeing with you, which I wasn't. It's the same way Blake is a better athlete than Blaine, even though Blaine had better combine numbers.
Although, I don't see the Marqise Lee-Ace Sanders comparison. They are pretty different to me. Ace Sanders wasn't really physically talented or naturally athletic. He was a very mediocre late round pick of one of the historically worst drafts of recent history.
No, we're totally in agreement. I was just taking what you said and just kept running with it. I didn't mean my initial sentence to be overly antagonistic. I was just saying whether or not you also see the additional point I was making on top of what you were saying.
I think we are completely copacetic.
However, I kinda feel I want to stick with my tangent point. I really do see Ace Sanders and Marquis Lee as similar.
Edit: What I mean by that is that both Ace and Marquis were/are super quick. I am more pessimistic on Lee than those that back him. I think he'll wind up flashing out. That's all I'm saying, really.
But you're right, we're more in agreement than in opposition. I was just using your point to further my thoughts. Not that I was really fully disagreeing with you.