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Quote:I would argue this point.  Creationism as well as Evolution are both theories with no real facts to back either one up with regards to how the universe was made.

 

Those that have some form of faith believe that the universe, world, etc. was created by some form of "Supreme Being".  It can not definitively be proven, nor can it be definitively dis-proven.

 

Those that believe the "scientific" theory believe that there was a "big bang" that started it all.  Again, it can not definitively be proven, nor can it be definitively dis-proven.
 

Evolution only deals with life on Earth. That's long after the universe was formed. Evolution and the Big Bang are two separate theories, and neither depends on the correctness of the other.

Quote:I would argue this point.  Creationism as well as Evolution are both theories with no real facts to back either one up with regards to how the universe was made.

 

Those that have some form of faith believe that the universe, world, etc. was created by some form of "Supreme Being".  It can not definitively be proven, nor can it be definitively dis-proven.

 

Those that believe the "scientific" theory believe that there was a "big bang" that started it all.  Again, it can not definitively be proven, nor can it be definitively dis-proven.
There is evidence of evolution. Obviously not all of it has been observed to this point and are still predictions based on the data and experimentation that has been done to form the current theory of evolution. 
Quote:There's a difference you are missing. In a real science the unknown is called out and studied. In creationism, the unknown is answered via faith through a religious text.

In science, when a theory is proven wrong, a new theory takes its place. That is also not the case in creationist beliefs. You should YouTube the bill Nye debate. There were several times when the creationist guy just had to refer back to his beliefs instead of actual science...
 

So how has the theory of Creationism been proven wrong?  Is it so wrong to introduce the idea that maybe it could be possible to young people to encourage thought?  You know, EDUCATE and inspire thought rather than teach something else based on a belief or non-belief.

 

Quote:Evolution only deals with life on Earth. That's long after the universe was formed. Evolution and the Big Bang are two separate theories, and neither depends on the correctness of the other.
 

Once again, it's not proven that life on Earth was formed long after a so-called "big bang".  And it is still just a theory, not a proven fact.

 

Quote:There is evidence of evolution. Obviously not all of it has been observed to this point and are still predictions based on the data and experimentation that has been done to form the current theory of evolution. 
 

True, but it doesn't explain the beginning.

 

I'm just arguing this debate from the point of view that it's not wrong to teach about Creationism in schools.  I'm not saying that it's a science, though the subject could potentially be part of a science class or maybe a history class.

 

I do find it kind of odd at times that some people are so afraid to think that perhaps there could be a being or force greater than ourselves.  Teaching the idea of Creationism is NOT teaching religion.  It's about teaching an ideology and letting the student think for themselves.
Quote:So how has the theory of Creationism been proven wrong?  Is it so wrong to introduce the idea that maybe it could be possible to young people to encourage thought?  You know, EDUCATE and inspire thought rather than teach something else based on a belief or non-belief.

 

 

Once again, it's not proven that life on Earth was formed long after a so-called "big bang".  And it is still just a theory, not a proven fact.

 

 

True, but it doesn't explain the beginning.

 

I'm just arguing this debate from the point of view that it's not wrong to teach about Creationism in schools.  I'm not saying that it's a science, though the subject could potentially be part of a science class or maybe a history class.

 

I do find it kind of odd at times that some people are so afraid to think that perhaps there could be a being or force greater than ourselves.  Teaching the idea of Creationism is NOT teaching religion.  It's about teaching an ideology and letting the student think for themselves.
There is zero onus on anyone to prove creationism wrong because there isn't a shred of evidence supporting it. There simply is not anything to disprove from a scientific standpoint.

 

People are not afraid to think that, in fact I'd wager every person espousing evolution has thought a great deal about it. I know I have. There is just plenty of evidence based on our understanding of mathematics and physics to accept evolution and big bang as most likely the actual case even without direct observation. Hence the use of scientific version of the word "theory".

 

Here is the problem. When you stop teaching science and scientific theory you are not teaching science. When you are teaching doctrine you are now teaching religion because without religion there is no creationism. That leads to another problem. So now which doctrine do you teach? There are hundreds of creation stories. You going to teach them all or just the one you think is true? I mean we are just doing this to get kids thinking right? If you pick one where is the differentiation from teaching and indoctrination as the right likes to accuse the left of doing in universities? You got it right when you said teaching an ideology. That's what it is not science. 

 

To answer your initial question. Yes, it is wrong to teach it because it's religious ideology. That, if you chose, has a place in the home, in church or even in private schools. I don't think it belongs in non private schools for that reason. 

Again I'll ask:


If we teach creationism, do we also teach Ancient Astronaut Theory?

Quote:Again I'll ask:


If we teach creationism, do we also teach Ancient Astronaut Theory?
Only if Prometheus is shown as a documentary in history class.
Quote:There is evidence of evolution. Obviously not all of it has been observed to this point and are still predictions based on the data and experimentation that has been done to form the current theory of evolution. 
Evolution might as well be a scientific fact. We can see evidence of it in the fossil record, in DNA and simply by looking back at human history. Society itself has spent millennia evolving from small bands of hunter/gatherers to launching itself to the moon (and then stopping because it's apparently very expensive to launch oneself to the moon). There is, in my mind at least, no doubt that evolution takes place not only amongst lifeforms, but also on the scale of the universe itself. Entire galaxies evolve from a collection of stars to a cloud of stars around a black hole, then into spirals and ultimately spherical clusters as they age. The notion that the universe came into existence 6,000 years ago is patently ridiculous. Even a very, very prominent figure who has long been opposed to the idea of evolution cedes that point and suggests that people who cling to it are making themselves look "ridiculous".

 

The question that no one has an answer to is what took place before evolution. Where did the singularity come from? Was it the crushed remnants of a previous universe? Or was there a singularity at all? What if our universe was created by impact of two parallel dimensions/strings? If so, where did those strings come from? How far back do we have to go for an answer?

 

Likewise, if an intelligence or some sort were involved in "pushing the button" on the processes that led to this and other universes, where did that intelligence come from? There had to be a zero point somewhere in time, right? But the very concept of a zero point throws Einstein's widely-accepted theories out the window. According to Einstein, mass is a form of energy, and the law of conservation of energy suggests that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So then, by default, there was no zero point. Existence and all the energy contained within it, then, must have always been and will always be. That alone completely defies human concepts of time and, frankly, bends our notions of science far beyond the breaking point.

 

Confused yet? Good. I've just presented a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the completely unanswerable questions facing science about the origins of the universe at this point in time. Science has no answers. Philosophy and theology have no answers. All anyone has are theories, and while some theories have been ruled out as infinitely improbable at this point in time (the 6,000-year argument being one of them), there are still countless more floating out there that we're no closer to answering now than we were 13.6 billion years ago, when the theoretical singularity theoretically popped.

 

Point being, the purpose of education should be to expand children's minds and expose them to as many viewpoints and ideas as possible. One can subscribe to the idea of an intelligent creator without affixing an ideology to it. In my mind, there's nothing wrong with teaching kids that a universe (or parts thereof) created and/or sculpted by an advanced intelligence is a viable theory regarding where the universe--and, by definition, we--came from, even in public schools so long as it's taught scientifically and not ideologically, and as long as the arguments for and against that theory are presented just as they would be for the Big Bang or string theories. If children want to affix a certain ideological identity to that advanced intelligence when they go home at night, that's on them. There is, imo, nothing wrong with a teacher saying, "We don't know where the universe came from, but there are lots of theories out there. Here are a few of them."
Quote:Once again, it's not proven that life on Earth was formed long after a so-called "big bang".  And it is still just a theory, not a proven fact.

 
 

We can measure the age of the Earth through potassium/Argon dating. We know it's 4.6 billion years old. Life on Earth could not have existed before there was an Earth. 
While it's not definitive proof of the age of the Earth (and we could all just be a computer program too) it's by far the best explanation. You could also postulate that the Earth was created more recently with rocks with that K40/Ar40 ratio. That implies that whoever created the Earth was vey deceptive.

 

We can also measure the distance to distant galaxies using the brightness of Type I supernovae. Those measurements could be off, but not by a factor of 2, so even with the most extreme error we still know we can see starlight from objects more than 4.6 billion light years distant. Once again the alternative is to assume that some deceptive creator made the universe with the photons from distant stars already most of the way here (or that we're a computer program).

 

So yes, barring the computer program theory or the very deceptive creator theory, I think it's safe to claim that the universe is older than the Earth.
Quote:Evolution might as well be a scientific fact. We can see evidence of it in the fossil record, in DNA and simply by looking back at human history. Society itself has spent millennia evolving from small bands of hunter/gatherers to launching itself to the moon (and then stopping because it's apparently very expensive to launch oneself to the moon). There is, in my mind at least, no doubt that evolution takes place not only amongst lifeforms, but also on the scale of the universe itself. Entire galaxies evolve from a collection of stars to a cloud of stars around a black hole, then into spirals and ultimately spherical clusters as they age. The notion that the universe came into existence 6,000 years ago is patently ridiculous. Even a very, very prominent figure who has long been opposed to the idea of evolution cedes that point and suggests that people who cling to it are making themselves look "ridiculous".

 

The question that no one has an answer to is what took place before evolution. Where did the singularity come from? Was it the crushed remnants of a previous universe? Or was there a singularity at all? What if our universe was created by impact of two parallel dimensions/strings? If so, where did those strings come from? How far back do we have to go for an answer?

 

Likewise, if an intelligence or some sort were involved in "pushing the button" on the processes that led to this and other universes, where did that intelligence come from? There had to be a zero point somewhere in time, right? But the very concept of a zero point throws Einstein's widely-accepted theories out the window. According to Einstein, mass is a form of energy, and the law of conservation of energy suggests that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So then, by default, there was no zero point. Existence and all the energy contained within it, then, must have always been and will always be. That alone completely defies human concepts of time and, frankly, bends our notions of science far beyond the breaking point.

 

Confused yet? Good. I've just presented a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the completely unanswerable questions facing science about the origins of the universe at this point in time. Science has no answers. Philosophy and theology have no answers. All anyone has are theories, and while some theories have been ruled out as infinitely improbable at this point in time (the 6,000-year argument being one of them), there are still countless more floating out there that we're no closer to answering now than we were 13.6 billion years ago, when the theoretical singularity theoretically popped.

 

Point being, the purpose of education should be to expand children's minds and expose them to as many viewpoints and ideas as possible. One can subscribe to the idea of an intelligent creator without affixing an ideology to it. In my mind, there's nothing wrong with teaching kids that a universe (or parts thereof) created and/or sculpted by an advanced intelligence is a viable theory regarding where the universe--and, by definition, we--came from, even in public schools so long as it's taught scientifically and not ideologically, and as long as the arguments for and against that theory are presented just as they would be for the Big Bang or string theories. If children want to affix a certain ideological identity to that advanced intelligence when they go home at night, that's on them. There is, imo, nothing wrong with a teacher saying, "We don't know where the universe came from, but there are lots of theories out there. Here are a few of them."
So like asked earlier, do we teach ancient astronaut? Do we teach Hindu creation theory? What about Last Thursday theory? 

 

The problem, I see with doing this is you basically keep it to a sentence. "Maybe it was some omnipotent creator, or creators. we don't know" and just move on. I just do not see it going down like that not when these ideals are rooted in religion. 
Quote:We can measure the age of the Earth through potassium/Argon dating. We know it's 4.6 billion years old. Life on Earth could not have existed before there was an Earth. 
While it's not definitive proof of the age of the Earth (and we could all just be a computer program too) it's by far the best explanation. You could also postulate that the Earth was created more recently with rocks with that K40/Ar40 ratio. That implies that whoever created the Earth was vey deceptive.

 

We can also measure the distance to distant galaxies using the brightness of Type I supernovae. Those measurements could be off, but not by a factor of 2, so even with the most extreme error we still know we can see starlight from objects more than 4.6 billion light years distant. Once again the alternative is to assume that some deceptive creator made the universe with the photons from distant stars already most of the way here (or that we're a computer program).

 

So yes, barring the computer program theory or the very deceptive creator theory, I think it's safe to claim that the universe is older than the Earth.
There is no spoon?

 

THERE IS NO SPOON?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Quote:So like asked earlier, do we teach ancient astronaut? Do we teach Hindu creation theory? What about Last Thursday theory? 

 

The problem, I see with doing this is you basically keep it to a sentence. "Maybe it was some omnipotent creator, or creators. we don't know" and just move on. I just do not see it going down like that not when these ideals are rooted in religion. 
I suppose that beyond requiring that the leading scientific theory be taught, it would be up to independent school districts to decide which additional theory or theories to present. I'm all for exposing kids to as many ideas as possible, but there is a limit to how much can be taught in any kind of depth in a very generalized high school science course.

Creationism is not falsifiable, therefore it does not belong in a classroom.


The End.
Quote:We can measure the age of the Earth through potassium/Argon dating. We know it's 4.6 billion years old. Life on Earth could not have existed before there was an Earth. 
While it's not definitive proof of the age of the Earth (and we could all just be a computer program too) it's by far the best explanation. You could also postulate that the Earth was created more recently with rocks with that K40/Ar40 ratio. That implies that whoever created the Earth was vey deceptive.

 

We can also measure the distance to distant galaxies using the brightness of Type I supernovae. Those measurements could be off, but not by a factor of 2, so even with the most extreme error we still know we can see starlight from objects more than 4.6 billion light years distant. Once again the alternative is to assume that some deceptive creator made the universe with the photons from distant stars already most of the way here (or that we're a computer program).

 

So yes, barring the computer program theory or the very deceptive creator theory, I think it's safe to claim that the universe is older than the Earth.
 

I can't speak directly for Jag, but in all fairness I don't think he was arguing against the age of the earth or the idea that the universe predates the earth.   
Quote:So like asked earlier, do we teach ancient astronaut? Do we teach Hindu creation theory? What about Last Thursday theory? 

 

The problem, I see with doing this is you basically keep it to a sentence. "Maybe it was some omnipotent creator, or creators. we don't know" and just move on. I just do not see it going down like that not when these ideals are rooted in religion. 
 

Lol.  So now religious people are incapable of staying on topic and having a reasoned conversation. 
Quote:So like asked earlier, do we teach ancient astronaut? Do we teach Hindu creation theory? What about Last Thursday theory? 

 

The problem, I see with doing this is you basically keep it to a sentence. "Maybe it was some omnipotent creator, or creators. we don't know" and just move on. I just do not see it going down like that not when these ideals are rooted in religion. 
 

TJBender has expressed way better than I can what I'm talking about.

 

When the idea or "theory" of Creationism is taught, it should be taught in a way that creates thought.  It's not about endorsing any certain religion, it's about teaching the IDEA that so many religions or civilizations thought regarding how we are here today.  As an example, what did the Mayan people believe or think?  Were they a "dumb" culture?  What about the Egyptians?  What about the Inca or the Aztecs?  Were they a "dumb" civilization that had "wrong" ideas regarding the beginnings of our planet or the universe?

 

I would ask if the study of these ancient civilizations does  or does not include Creationism?

 

The objection thrown out by the left is that "Creationism is false" and "not science" so it should therefor be banned from education.  What they are afraid of is that the concept of Creationism=religion (specifically the Christian religion).
Quote:So no real answer? Again, like I said, you can't teach something in a science class when the answers come from the faith one had from a religious book.


Sorry, that's just the way it works in science.
 

I never advocated teaching from a religious book in science class.  No one defending creationism or the thought of creationism is advocating teaching from a religious book in science class.  Where is this coming from?  
Quote:There is zero onus on anyone to prove creationism wrong because there isn't a shred of evidence supporting it. There simply is not anything to disprove from a scientific standpoint.

 

People are not afraid to think that, in fact I'd wager every person espousing evolution has thought a great deal about it. I know I have. There is just plenty of evidence based on our understanding of mathematics and physics to accept evolution and big bang as most likely the actual case even without direct observation. Hence the use of scientific version of the word "theory".

 
 

Lol.  So now you know EVERYONE who has studied or espoused evolutionary theory and you can personally attest to their study habits huh?  lol.  was that before or after Bill Nye's show?
Quote:I'm just happy to be mentioned in this thread. Makes me feel special.


Also, I like oface and jagibelieve, strictly platonicly, though.


Lastly, isn't creationism not a science since the final point of reference is a religious book?


Did any body watch bill nye wipe the floor with that creationism guy?


All the creationist guy could do was refer back to dogma when he was pressed by nye... that does not really make a science.


Yes it was a horrible debate for creationism. The guy they stuck up there did a horrible job but there's a wide degree of creationist he doesn't represent all creationist. For example he talked about the ark, nothing scientific about that subject other than it's impossible and strictly a religious topic. The young earth is another topic not all creationist agree on, the earth is certainly older than 10,000 years.
In general let me make a couple of points.  

 

1.) The idea that it is impossible to have a discussion about the origins of the universe without descending into sectarian chaos is fundamentally antithetical to the existence of this sub-forum.  Think about it.  We have the basic guidelines that this isn't the place for religious Dogma or ideology yet here we are 11 pages in and we have shifted through discussion points without anyone having to personally divulge their particular faith or background.  Ultimately, its the goal of all education to create individuals who can conduct themselves in a civilized manner in the arena of ideas.  

 

2.) T.J. bender gets a gold star.  

 

3.) I have said before and I'll restate it (as someone who proudly believes in a creation narrative) I have zero objection to teaching Evolution in the classroom.  I have zero objection to teaching big bang theory in the classroom.  My objection is this.  Teach bot theories in whole.  In the case of the Big Bang that would include that in a lot of ways the idea that our universe and all the matter/energy there in has an age is somewhat paradoxical to the way that we know energy behaves.  In the case of evolution, it should also include that evolution even Macro evolution DOES NOT account for the ORIGINS of life on earth.  That's a separate hypothesis (not a scientific theory yet) called abiogenesis.  And this hypothesis would again be paradoxical with conventional bio-genesis that is currently a scientific law.  The problem i have is when you see some people who think their beliefs are rooted in science and then when you have a conversation with them the moment that you ask them what a founder population is or talk about reproductive isolation and their eyes glaze over.

Quote:Lol.  So now religious people are incapable of staying on topic and having a reasoned conversation. 
That isn't even remotely close to what I said there not even what I implied. 
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