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Quote:The question is, and this touches on religion, would be who/what is "the creator"? Can the teaching be done in a way that for example teaches that some believe that there is/was a "higher power"? What did the Mayans think? What about the Inca? What about the ancient Egyptians? What about ancient Romans? The list can go on and on and deals not only with modern belief, but the belief of past civilizations.
The major "issue" and backlash against teaching anything about creationism is mostly from the left, and it's because they think that it would be all about the Christian belief.
You are not teaching any specific belief, you are teaching that some people believe that this is a possible solution to the question about how life began. Is it the "right" thing? I'll leave that question open for people to decide for themselves.
Perhaps the solution is to take it out of a "science" class and teach it in a "history" class.
The concern, at least for me, is teaching religion not necessarily one in particular. That does not belong in public schools IMO and definitely not in science class.
This goes back to a point I brought up waaaaay earlier in this thread about how do you attempt to present this is in a manner that is not evangelizing? I think the best way is to not touch on it at all but I can see where you are coming from.
I think that at some point that we need to step back and realize that when you add in weekends vacation days and summer we might be talking about 15% or less of a kids life from age 4 to 18 interacting with the public school system. I think that more often than not the parents are going to have a much greater impact on developing the belief system of the child than anything he or she is going to learn in science or even history class.
That being said, going back to something I said way way way back in this thread, I think that we need to treat the time of the student as we would our own time if we were in a lawyers office. If we were in an attorneys office and they were charging us a thousand dollars an hour I don't think we would waste much time with small talk about our fishing trip or how to paint pretty pictures. I think that we would treat that time like a valuable commodity and deal only with the facts that pertained to our case to obtain the best outcome.
I think the biggest problem with the education system today specifically on the public school side is that it is not goal/purpose driven. Ironically in the maths and sciences the most oft asked question by students is "why do I need to know this." I think that from an early age we should be talking to kids and teaching them how to set goals and achieve those goals. Also, anything that is taught in the classroom should be reserved for things that are of the utmost importance and the utmost relevance to helping that child develop a marketable skill. We should be holding up examples of people who have succeeded across all spectrums of life so that students can have a an end game in mind and that kind of motivation will carry them through the 85% of time that they aren't around teachers.
As an example here in Jacksonville we have two of the finest public institutions in the country in Stanton & Paxon. The most interesting thing is that while these are public institutions the parents of these kids are inordinately in the professional class (doctors lawyers etc.) I believe the fundamental reason for this is that the parents of these kids a.) emphasize education and b.) the kid sees a direct correlation between performance in the classroom and the kind of lifestyle that they eventually want to have.
for the 70% or so of kids who are born to non college grads I think that we need to have a system that encourages them to strive for the heights of academic excellence and provide examples they may not have at home.
For the kids that do achieve at a high level I think that we need to develop a faster track than what's currently offered. If you strip away all the electives that don't serve a vital scholastic purpose I think that you could have kids performing at a level on par with what we currently hold as a high school graduate at or around 16 instead of 18 with little strain and possibly even lower in the mid teens for the really advanced kids. If we could cut two years of waist from the high school system that would provide the opportunity to integrate more college level courses to kids until they reach 18 with little or no added cost to the tax payer and it would also mean that you could see 18 19 year olds operating at a graduate level and ready to enter the work force as a professional with options. That in turn could lower the average age of marriage, which would increase the rate of marriage, which would increase the percentage of kids born into two parent homes, which would increase overall performance of kids and reduce dependency on public assistance etc. etc. etc.
The Bright Futures Scholarship and the Army Reserve each paid for my tuition, so I received a $3k check back from the registrars office each semester.
IMO you have no business racking up student loans if you can't receive and maintain a bright futures scholarship. I went to a public university and have multiple friends who never escaped the restaurant industry because they graduated with a 2.2 GPAs in psychology. Private for profit schools have only made this problem worse by graduating students who are not being recruited by major industries, lack marketable skills, and probably shouldn't have been in college in the first place.
If you don't have the aptitude to graduate in the top 30% of your college class then you are probably better off starting a career with an AA/AS degree and working full time while you finish your degree. Having 4 years of experience as a bookkeeper, electrician, drafter, or administrative assistant will make it much easier to get a job when graduating with average grades or from a less prestigious university. You will also avoid the majority of debt most students accumulate from room and board and should be able to start with a salary higher than most initial graduates because of your work experience.
I am personally not in favor of any program that makes college more accessible to the masses. There should be programs to promote diversity and assist the underprivileged, but assistance should only apply to students that show the most aptitude in those categories. Both candadites are pedaling propaganda to uneducated parents who think it is vital that their children graduate college, when there children probably wouldn't graduate even if the tuition was free.
Quote:The Bright Futures Scholarship and the Army Reserve each paid for my tuition, so I received a $3k check back from the registrars office each semester.
IMO you have no business racking up student loans if you can't receive and maintain a bright futures scholarship. I went to a public university and have multiple friends who never escaped the restaurant industry because they graduated with a 2.2 GPAs in psychology. Private for profit schools have only made this problem worse by graduating students who are not being recruited by major industries, lack marketable skills, and probably shouldn't have been in college in the first place.
If you don't have the aptitude to graduate in the top 30% of your college class then you are probably better off starting a career with an AA/AS degree and working full time while you finish your degree. Having 4 years of experience as a bookkeeper, electrician, drafter, or administrative assistant will make it much easier to get a job when graduating with average grades or from a less prestigious university. You will also avoid the majority of debt most students accumulate from room and board and should be able to start with a salary higher than most initial graduates because of your work experience.
I am personally not in favor of any program that makes college more accessible to the masses. There should be programs to promote diversity and assist the underprivileged, but assistance should only apply to students that show the most aptitude in those categories. Both candadites are pedaling propaganda to uneducated parents who think it is vital that their children graduate college, when there children probably wouldn't graduate even if the tuition was free.
We need a less educated populace?
Quote:We need a less educated populace?
Do you need your server at the Ale House to have a college degree from Phoenix Online paid for with financial aid and student loans?
I would rather have a university system with the highest standards in the world graduating students with marketable skills in their career fields, rather than creating more universities in the bottom tier producing more college graduates.
There has been huge growth in the private for profit colleges and former junior colleges issuing 4 year degrees in the last 4 years. What market need are these institutions serving other than taking advantage of government programs in order to grow and/or profit from students public universities would not admit?
Quote:The question is, and this touches on religion, would be who/what is "the creator"? Can the teaching be done in a way that for example teaches that some believe that there is/was a "higher power"? What did the Mayans think? What about the Inca? What about the ancient Egyptians? What about ancient Romans? The list can go on and on and deals not only with modern belief, but the belief of past civilizations.
The major "issue" and backlash against teaching anything about creationism is mostly from the left, and it's because they think that it would be all about the Christian belief.
You are not teaching any specific belief, you are teaching that some people believe that this is a possible solution to the question about how life began. Is it the "right" thing? I'll leave that question open for people to decide for themselves.
Perhaps the solution is to take it out of a "science" class and teach it in a "history" class.
I actually think that "evolutionists" have been saying that about creationism for a while now... It's not a science, but could be considered a humanity. If one wants to discuss creationism, that's where it belongs.
Also,Incan beliefs, Egyption beliefs, Roman beliefs, Greek beliefs, etc.. about creationism are all taught---in the humanities. That's kinda where this all belongs. There isn't really a problem with that type of survey during a history class... It's when Texas or some other southern state wants to teach a creationist ideology in a science class that it become ridiculous.
Quote:In another thread an idea came to me regarding a debate between the stances of two candidates running for President. The selection of the two is based on the results of a "not-so-scientific" website that attempts to determine a person's "ideal" choice for President.
I would like to focus this on just the views and proposed policies of the two candidates selected. You may or may not find that these two candidates are not "your ideal candidate", and that's fine. However, let's try to keep the discussion simply related to what each of the two candidates has said or proposed.
The topic is Education. This, in my mind has two "sub-topics" those being K-12 education and college education.
The two candidates selected, based on the prior thread are Marco Rubio and Bernie Sanders.
I encourage discussion regarding what a candidate has actually said or written. I discourage personal opinions regarding what someone thinks a candidate should have said, or what a person's "ideal candidate" would do. In other words, think of it as being the final race rather than the primaries.
I like Rubio but for some reason my wife doesn't, in fact she can't stand watching him when he is on tv.
As badly as Donald Trump appears to be doing with women voters in the polls, most women I talk to say they would vote for him.
I personally prefer Dr Carson
Quote:Do you need your server at the Ale House to have a college degree from Phoenix Online paid for with financial aid and student loans?
I would rather have a university system with the highest standards in the world graduating students with marketable skills in their career fields, rather than creating more universities in the bottom tier producing more college graduates.
There has been huge growth in the private for profit colleges and former junior colleges issuing 4 year degrees in the last 4 years. What market need are these institutions serving other than taking advantage of government programs in order to grow and/or profit from students public universities would not admit?
So who decides who, among those wanting an education, actually gets to learn? Perhaps that server wants to work on servers as a career?
When did education become a privilege? Learning should be celebrated not vilified, a very common trend I have been seeing lately.
I agree with you on the for profit colleges. They are a microcosm of everything wrong with putting profit above all else.
Quote:So who decides who, among those wanting an education, actually gets to learn? Perhaps that server wants to work on servers as a career?
When did education become a privilege? Learning should be celebrated not vilified, a very common trend I have been seeing lately.
I agree with you on the for profit colleges. They are a microcosm of everything wrong with putting profit above all else.
Education isn't a privilege, every American child is compelled to attend school. This transition to a society where post-secondary education is viewed as a right and a requirement to be successful is the problem. High School diplomas are already almost valueless because of credential inflation, making more of the post-secondary world available for free only devalues them even more. Want to bag groceries? You need an AA and 2 years experience before we'll process your application. That's where this will take us.
Quote:Education isn't a privilege, every American child is compelled to attend school. This transition to a society where post-secondary education is viewed as a right and a requirement to be successful is the problem. High School diplomas are already almost valueless because of credential inflation, making more of the post-secondary world available for free only devalues them even more. Want to bag groceries? You need an AA and 2 years experience before we'll process your application. That's where this will take us.
I think I agree. It seems there is a sort of diploma arms race going on these days and it's just putting everyone in more debt.
We need to focus more on developing skilled trades. I told my wife's younger brother it I was 19-20 id be learning all I could about drones.
I don't buy this education inflation argument.
The reason a high school diploma or AA is devalued has to do with the new economy and the information technology age along with the flight of manufacturing from the usa.
You want to be a mechanical engineer? Great, you're gonna need a bachelor's, or more than likely a master's to fully understand the intricacies of that discipline. An associate's it hs diploma is just not enough coursework to be technically proficient in these new economy industries.
I'd be very careful of devaluing education just because it's gotten too expensive...
The better solution would be to pinpoint where and when tuition costs have gone up, and address that issue.
Quote:I don't buy this education inflation argument.
The reason a high school diploma or AA is devalued has to do with the new economy and the information technology age along with the flight of manufacturing from the usa.
You want to be a mechanical engineer? Great, you're gonna need a bachelor's, or more than likely a master's to fully understand the intricacies of that discipline. An associate's it hs diploma is just not enough coursework to be technically proficient in these new economy industries.
I'd be very careful of devaluing education just because it's gotten too expensive...
The better solution would be to pinpoint where and when tuition costs have gone up, and address that issue.
I'm not gonna pretend to be anything close to an expert in this but I have friends getting masters and MBAs to do jobs that don't even need diplomas in the first place just because everyone else has them and they need to be competitive. It just seems silly to me I guess.
Quote:I'm not gonna pretend to be anything close to an expert in this but I have friends getting masters and MBAs to do jobs that don't even need diplomas in the first place just because everyone else has them and they need to be competitive. It just seems silly to me I guess.
I think I get that point,I mean, you don't need an mba to flip burgers. But to be a manager of a business, probably you do...
Again, I think that's more a function of the new economy and competition, don't you?
I can see both sides of the argument. I don't need a diploma to work in automotive. A few years ago I thought I wanted to get out of automotive and ended up taking night classes at the local state college. I thought id do something with computers it's easier on the back, I can type fast and everyone I know that works with computers makes good money. After I got my AA I started taking engineering classes got to calculus and figured I'm not cut out for engineering or really computers at all, actually I hate computers! So I switched my degree to a basic degree in business. I don't need a degree in automotive but when a big chain garage was looking for a new manager they saw my degree and it gave me a leg up on other candidates. My degree isn't required but it's open some doors up earlier or me then others in my field.
Quote:I can see both sides of the argument. I don't need a diploma to work in automotive. A few years ago I thought I wanted to get out of automotive and ended up taking night classes at the local state college. I thought id do something with computers it's easier on the back, I can type fast and everyone I know that works with computers makes good money. After I got my AA I started taking engineering classes got to calculus and figured I'm not cut out for engineering or really computers at all, actually I hate computers! So I switched my degree to a basic degree in business. I don't need a degree in automotive but when a big chain garage was looking for a new manager they saw my degree and it gave me a leg up on other candidates. My degree isn't required but it's open some doors up earlier or me then others in my field.
Quote:I don't buy this education inflation argument.
The reason a high school diploma or AA is devalued has to do with the new economy and the information technology age along with the flight of manufacturing from the usa.
You want to be a mechanical engineer? Great, you're gonna need a bachelor's, or more than likely a master's to fully understand the intricacies of that discipline. An associate's it hs diploma is just not enough coursework to be technically proficient in these new economy industries.
I'd be very careful of devaluing education just because it's gotten too expensive...
The better solution would be to pinpoint where and when tuition costs have gone up, and address that issue.
I'll address the first statement in bold first, then see my response to Eric below regarding the second comment of yours in bold.
To the first part in bold, this is what Marco Rubio has talked about and addressed not only in his book, but what he says/said in interviews and during the debate.
Quote:I can see both sides of the argument. I don't need a diploma to work in automotive. A few years ago I thought I wanted to get out of automotive and ended up taking night classes at the local state college. I thought id do something with computers it's easier on the back, I can type fast and everyone I know that works with computers makes good money. After I got my AA I started taking engineering classes got to calculus and figured I'm not cut out for engineering or really computers at all, actually I hate computers! So I switched my degree to a basic degree in business. I don't need a degree in automotive but when a big chain garage was looking for a new manager they saw my degree and it gave me a leg up on other candidates. My degree isn't required but it's open some doors up earlier or me then others in my field.
Education is often thought of wrong in my opinion. A degree or certification doesn't really mean anything (at times). I've given my history as an example a couple of times here on the board. I work with electronics and computers. I've actually had to teach younger colleagues that held Electronics Engineering degrees and Computer Science degrees how things
really work. I don't hold a degree at all.
My education came from experience in the military service as well as doing a lot of reading and researching. It's possible to be educated by other than traditional means.
Quote:I'll address the first statement in bold first, then see my response to Eric below regarding the second comment of yours in bold.
To the first part in bold, this is what Marco Rubio has talked about and addressed not only in his book, but what he says/said in interviews and during the debate.
Education is often thought of wrong in my opinion. A degree or certification doesn't really mean anything (at times). I've given my history as an example a couple of times here on the board. I work with electronics and computers. I've actually had to teach younger colleagues that held Electronics Engineering degrees and Computer Science degrees how things really work. I don't hold a degree at all.
My education came from experience in the military service as well as doing a lot of reading and researching. It's possible to be educated by other than traditional means.
True but it seems to me military training is close to formal education in such a way that the two blur the lines no?
Quote:I'll address the first statement in bold first, then see my response to Eric below regarding the second comment of yours in bold.
To the first part in bold, this is what Marco Rubio has talked about and addressed not only in his book, but what he says/said in interviews and during the debate.
Education is often thought of wrong in my opinion. A degree or certification doesn't really mean anything (at times). I've given my history as an example a couple of times here on the board. I work with electronics and computers. I've actually had to teach younger colleagues that held Electronics Engineering degrees and Computer Science degrees how things really work. I don't hold a degree at all.
My education came from experience in the military service as well as doing a lot of reading and researching. It's possible to be educated by other than traditional means.
I agree with that completely.
Well actually, I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. But I agree that real world experience often triumphs classroom experience.
When people ask me what kind of Ag degree I have it always makes me chuckle.
Quote:True but it seems to me military training is close to formal education in such a way that the two blur the lines no?
In some cases yes. My training in electronics in the military started at "2+2=4" and progressed rapidly through not only theory regarding physics, but also math that went as high as calculus. I also learned about other things such as history and tradition. That was the "formal" education.
Imagine (for those of you that went to college) going to classes every day for 8 hours per day, then having "other classes" outside of that.
When you get out into the fleet, you learn all about duty, responsibility, the ability to take direction and eventually leadership. As you go up in rank, you learn more and more. I can't really put it into words right now, but you do learn an awful lot.
Quote:In some cases yes. My training in electronics in the military started at "2+2=4" and progressed rapidly through not only theory regarding physics, but also math that went as high as calculus. I also learned about other things such as history and tradition. That was the "formal" education.
Imagine (for those of you that went to college) going to classes every day for 8 hours per day, then having "other classes" outside of that.
When you get out into the fleet, you learn all about duty, responsibility, the ability to take direction and eventually leadership. As you go up in rank, you learn more and more. I can't really put it into words right now, but you do learn an awful lot.
My point was that you do get a formal education along with military training. The education was just part of the whole of the experience but a crucial one. One that is similar to a formal education at a university just without the job and boots. That's all I was getting at. Also in your case they paid you and in civilians case they pay for the education.
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