Quote:I live on a farm in Tennessee, and lease our cleared land to a man who farms hay. When it comes time to cut and bale, he goes to a Home Depot 35 miles away and hires about 6 - 8 Mexican immigrants to work. I have no idea if they are in this country illegally, but he prefers them because the local men either don't want the job, or won't stay the full day or show up the next day. He pays a reasonable wage of $10 per hour, and tells me they are the best workers he can find.
Is he part of the problem? Sure, but I find it hard to blame him.
That's been the case for many years.
Quote:I live on a farm in Tennessee, and lease our cleared land to a man who farms hay. When it comes time to cut and bale, he goes to a Home Depot 35 miles away and hires about 6 - 8 Mexican immigrants to work. I have no idea if they are in this country illegally, but he prefers them because the local men either don't want the job, or won't stay the full day or show up the next day. He pays a reasonable wage of $10 per hour, and tells me they are the best workers he can find.
Is he part of the problem? Sure, but I find it hard to blame him.
I think theres a safe assumption there.
But, you're right regarding the work attitude. Vice had a news special on the plight of Alabama farmers, where it became law that the illegals and employers would be dealt with harshly.
so they fled.
They tried prisoners, local work, etc. None could match the Mexican laborers. Why? Well, my assumption is American workers have become soft, lazy and that kind of work is beneath them. Sad, if not pathetic. The prisoners had an easier life behind bars than actually working for their upkeep
Ringo, is it that we Americans are soft and lazy? Or is it that the wage being offered is too low for the work?
Quote:Ringo, is it that we Americans are soft and lazy? Or is it that the wage being offered is too low for the work?
Bingo that's the reality the whole Americans won't do the work is a weak argument. Americans have and to this day do all kinds of horrible labor but it's when the pay equals the work.
Rj talks about the farmer who pays $10 an hour to bundle hay well that's fine teenagers might be interested in a wage that low but if you asked me as a grown adult id decline as well I can make $10 an hour doing way less physical work. It's cheaper for that farmer to purchase equipment that bundles the hay then to pay what someone going to want for that type of temporary physical labor.
I've dug ditches, laid sod, changed tires, and done countless other labor jobs for low wages to get where I'm at I don't believe the nonsense Americans won't do those jobs I've seen it with my own eyes. I've sat in labor hall lines at 3am with 100 other laborers (legal Americans you had to have papers) to hope for a day job making $8 an hour we where doing the same work you'd see people pick up illegals for.
Quote:Bingo that's the reality the whole Americans won't do the work is a weak argument. Americans have and to this day do all kinds of horrible labor but it's when the pay equals the work.
Rj talks about the farmer who pays $10 an hour to bundle hay well that's fine teenagers might be interested in a wage that low but if you asked me as a grown adult id decline as well I can make $10 an hour doing way less physical work.
It's cheaper for that farmer to purchase equipment that bundles the hay then to pay what someone going to want for that type of temporary physical labor.
I've dug ditches, laid sod, changed tires, and done countless other labor jobs for low wages to get where I'm at I don't believe the nonsense Americans won't do those jobs I've seen it with my own eyes. I've sat in labor hall lines at 3am with 100 other laborers (legal Americans you had to have papers) to hope for a day job making $8 an hour we where doing the same work you'd see people pick up illegals for.
Demographics also play a part in wages...Where I live now, the majority of work available is retail...We all know that retail is a very low paying industry...The community and surrounding communities are very old...The median income of the area is only somewhere around $26,000 per year...In my area, if you make $10 an hour or more, you are considered to be doing very well...
There are only a handful of companies around that pay $10 an hour or more...I am situated almost in the center of Pa about 26 miles south of Penn State which is on the other side of "Seven Mountains"... Once you get over the mountian into the State College area, the wages increase dramatically, as do they if you go 60 miles to the capitol Harrisburg...
Most of towns here in Pa are townships / villages located inside Boroughs ( not talking about the big cities such as Philly or Pittsburgh) where the wages once again are very low...
The point to this post is to show that demographics help shape the local economy and workforce infrastructure, so where you said teenagers might be willing to work for $10 an hour, here that is a wage that most grown men would jump to have...
I work for a company HQ in another state, so my pay is close to what you would expect in Jacksonville, but to the locals here, it's HUGE money...$10 an hour is considered very good, $teens is excellant, and $20 + is HUGE...
Housing is CHEAP, groceries are expensive
Quote:Ringo, is it that we Americans are soft and lazy? Or is it that the wage being offered is too low for the work?
I'd say a little bit of both.
Quote:Bingo that's the reality the whole Americans won't do the work is a weak argument. Americans have and to this day do all kinds of horrible labor but it's when the pay equals the work.
Rj talks about the farmer who pays $10 an hour to bundle hay well that's fine teenagers might be interested in a wage that low but if you asked me as a grown adult id decline as well I can make $10 an hour doing way less physical work. It's cheaper for that farmer to purchase equipment that bundles the hay then to pay what someone going to want for that type of temporary physical labor.
I've dug ditches, laid sod, changed tires, and done countless other labor jobs for low wages to get where I'm at I don't believe the nonsense Americans won't do those jobs I've seen it with my own eyes. I've sat in labor hall lines at 3am with 100 other laborers (legal Americans you had to have papers) to hope for a day job making $8 an hour we where doing the same work you'd see people pick up illegals for.
All the laborers he hires do is load 50 lb square bales from the field onto a flat bed truck, then transfer them from the truck into a hay loft of a barn. There is equipment that will mostly automate these tasks, but his operation is not big enough to warrant the investment. The Mexican laborers range in age from 18 - 30ish, the locals he's tried to hire are usually teenagers or young adults. My county is the poorest in Tennessee, and one of the poorest in the country, yet he cannot find reliable workers locally.
Quote:Demographics also play a part in wages...Where I live now, the majority of work available is retail...We all know that retail is a very low paying industry...The community and surrounding communities are very old...The median income of the area is only somewhere around $26,000 per year...In my area, if you make $10 an hour or more, you are considered to be doing very well...
There are only a handful of companies around that pay $10 an hour or more...I am situated almost in the center of Pa about 26 miles south of Penn State which is on the other side of "Seven Mountains"... Once you get over the mountian into the State College area, the wages increase dramatically, as do they if you go 60 miles to the capitol Harrisburg...
Most of towns here in Pa are townships / villages located inside Boroughs ( not talking about the big cities such as Philly or Pittsburgh) where the wages once again are very low...
The point to this post is to show that demographics help shape the local economy and workforce infrastructure, so where you said teenagers might be willing to work for $10 an hour, here that is a wage that most grown men would jump to have...
I work for a company HQ in another state, so my pay is close to what you would expect in Jacksonville, but to the locals here, it's HUGE money...$10 an hour is considered very good, $teens is excellant, and $20 + is HUGE...
Housing is CHEAP, groceries are expensive
Quote:All the laborers he hires do is load 50 lb square bales from the field onto a flat bed truck, then transfer them from the truck into a hay loft of a barn. There is equipment that will mostly automate these tasks, but his operation is not big enough to warrant the investment. The Mexican laborers range in age from 18 - 30ish, the locals he's tried to hire are usually teenagers or young adults. My county is the poorest in Tennessee, and one of the poorest in the country, yet he cannot find reliable workers locally.
That says it all right there.
Here is a legitimate question. What if the minimum wage was raised to $15 per hour? Would locals take the job then?
Follow up question. What would happen to the farmer that RJ describes or the businesses that wrong_box describe?
Quote:That says it all right there.
Here is a legitimate question. What if the minimum wage was raised to $15 per hour? Would locals take the job then?
Follow up question. What would happen to the farmer that RJ describes or the businesses that wrong_box describe?
Farmwork is not always mandated to pay minimum wage, some aspects of farm work can pay sub-minimum wage, ( such as being paid "$X.03 per bale of hay bucked) not to mention it's pretty much all cash under the table work so they can pay whatever they want or whatever the market will allow...Locals DO take the jobs, but the nature of such work is not always stable...There isn't much work between cuttings of hay, and after the hay was up, not much work until the next cutting, weeks later, so it becomes sporadic...It's hard to keep
any help when it's seasonal or sporatic...I do recall, that farmwork allows up to a certain amount of labor called ( Casual Labor) to go un reported and un taxed...
That's simple, if they HAD to pay minum wage, they would simply raise the price of hay to compensate for the rise in labor cost
Quote:Farmwork is not always mandated to pay minimum wage, some aspects of farm work can pay sub-minimum wage, ( such as being paid "$X.03 per bale of hay bucked) not to mention it's pretty much all cash under the table work so they can pay whatever they want or whatever the market will allow...Locals DO take the jobs, but the nature of such work is not always stable...There isn't much work between cuttings of hay, and after the hay was up, not much work until the next cutting, weeks later, so it becomes sporadic...It's hard to keep any help when it's seasonal or sporatic...I do recall, that farmwork allows up to a certain amount of labor called ( Casual Labor) to go un reported and un taxed...
That's simple, if they HAD to pay minum wage, they would simply raise the price of hay to compensate for the rise in labor cost
First of all, I'll admit my ignorance when it comes to how farms work and how labor is paid.
However, the part in bold is the very essence of capitalism. If the pay needs to be higher in order to get reliable workers, then that's the issue that should be worked out between the farmer and the labor.
Now regarding your "simple" answer, here is a follow up question. What happens if the price of hay goes up in order to compensate for the rise in labor cost?
Quote:Now regarding your "simple" answer, here is a follow up question. What happens if the price of hay goes up in order to compensate for the rise in labor cost?
I've got a simple answer of my own for that one:
As the cost of hay goes up, the cost of products dependent upon hay goes up. And the price of those products goes up, it trickles on down the line to the cost of consumer goods. Ten years from now, as the price of consumer goods (and fuel, and energy, and housing) continue to rise, we'll hear once again from those earning the now-$15/hr. minimum wage that they can't afford to live on that salary, and need more money, and the cycle continues.
Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. It's meant to be paid to teenagers and/or college students who need some extra cash or want to build real-world work experience. If a 35-year-old with two kids is making minimum wage, they're doing it wrong.
Quote:First of all, I'll admit my ignorance when it comes to how farms work and how labor is paid.
However, the part in bold is the very essence of capitalism. If the pay needs to be higher in order to get reliable workers, then that's the issue that should be worked out between the farmer and the labor.
Now regarding your "simple" answer, here is a follow up question. What happens if the price of hay goes up in order to compensate for the rise in labor cost?
That's how it works... If farmer Joe pays $8.50 an hour, and Farmer Ben pays $8.75, Farmer Mark pays $8.75 but Farmer Frank pays $12.50, who will generally always have enough employees? It's no different than any other type of employment or industry
Keep in mind some farmers have larger operations which allow for higher wages...Some farmers are specialized in one area, green beans, corn, beets, alphalfa etc so their income is limited to the season they grow and harvest...Some farmers are more diversified and also milk cows for year round income, some raise beef, chickens, hogs for added income...
Now if the price of hay was increased then consumers would be forced to pay for that increase or do without...It could also be just the opposite if you use the example above...Farmer Frank has the highest payroll, so he's probably running pretty lean, Farmer Joe has the least overhead (according to payroll) so he may be able to absorb the increase and keep his hay price the same and sell more because he's selling it cheaper...
There are several answeres to your question
Quote:I've got a simple answer of my own for that one:
As the cost of hay goes up, the cost of products dependent upon hay goes up. And the price of those products goes up, it trickles on down the line to the cost of consumer goods. Ten years from now, as the price of consumer goods (and fuel, and energy, and housing) continue to rise, we'll hear once again from those earning the now-$15/hr. minimum wage that they can't afford to live on that salary, and need more money, and the cycle continues.
Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage
. It's meant to be paid to teenagers and/or college students who need some extra cash or want to build real-world work experience. If a 35-year-old with two kids is making minimum wage, they're doing it wrong.
THAT, is something no one seems to grasp...If minimum wage was a wage suitable for families to live a comfortable life, that's that's pretty much what every company would pay..There are industries that pay more because of the nature of the work, but if every company in the country paid $17 an hour there would be no more separation of pay other than executives...People would balk at doing harder jobs for the same amount of money as easier jobs such as fast food, but in the end, the jobs would still be filled
Quote:I've got a simple answer of my own for that one:
As the cost of hay goes up, the cost of products dependent upon hay goes up. And the price of those products goes up, it trickles on down the line to the cost of consumer goods. Ten years from now, as the price of consumer goods (and fuel, and energy, and housing) continue to rise, we'll hear once again from those earning the now-$15/hr. minimum wage that they can't afford to live on that salary, and need more money, and the cycle continues.
Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. It's meant to be paid to teenagers and/or college students who need some extra cash or want to build real-world work experience. If a 35-year-old with two kids is making minimum wage, they're doing it wrong.
Very good answer.
Here is another thought. Eventually prices on basic goods will go up too high and the result will be businesses closing or farms folding up. It hasn't happened yet... but look at the prices of beef. It's more expensive now than it has ever been.
Quote:THAT, is something no one seems to grasp...If minimum wage was a wage suitable for families to live a comfortable life, that's that's pretty much what every company would pay..There are industries that pay more because of the nature of the work, but if every company in the country paid $17 an hour there would be no more separation of pay other than executives...People would balk at doing harder jobs for the same amount of money as easier jobs such as fast food, but in the end, the jobs would still be filled
The jobs would be filled, but for how long? You then run into the "trickle up" effect. Say for instance, someone that works in an industry that requires some form of skill or education makes $17 per hour. If the same wage could be made flipping burgers at micky D's or somewhere like that, then that job that the person works at would be warranted a pay raise, because after all, the skills/knowledge of the position is higher than the skills/knowledge required to flip burgers. There would most certainly have to be an incentive to get these higher skilled workers. So say you raise their pay to $25 per hour.
Again, the same thing happens. Those people that currently earn $25 per hour because perhaps their skill and/or education/experience is higher than the people that just got a raise to $25 per hour. The same scenario happens again. You need to raise their pay, and the cycle continues.
Along with the rising salaries you need to also look at the price of goods/services. Prices will rise, and even though more people have "more money", they still will only be able to afford what they can now. This is basically what is called Inflation.
Raising the minimum wage will do more to de-value the dollar.
Quote:Very good answer.
Here is another thought. Eventually prices on basic goods will go up too high and the result will be businesses closing or farms folding up. It hasn't happened yet... but look at the prices of beef. It's more expensive now than it has ever been.
You would think so, but I don't think that will ever happen...I am from Idaho originally, all my family still lives there, the price of gorceries continue to climb in every market, but I frequently compare grocery prices here in Pa to prices in Idaho...
Here in Pa. where I live, hamburger is the nearly the same price per pound as a Tbone steak is in Idaho...Hamburger is nearly $5 a pound here...it climbs steadily every couple weeks...One decent Tbone is $ 18 +/- a few pennies...One whole chicken is $13 and climbing, one family pack of chicken wings is $13 or more...When gas goes up the meat prices increase (due to more fuel costs to deliver) but when fuel goes down, the price doesn't decrease...
The point here is people HAVE to eat, and will find a way to buy food...Even when the prices are high, people still buy food...People may not buy things such as premium steaks, but they still buy meat...A 4-5# chuck roast is $25 which is an extreamly high price to pay but again, people still have to eat...
There will never be such a surplus of food that the law of supply and demand will mandate a mass reduction of food prices...
Another point is, whave you looked at where the food in the grocery store is coming from? Very few fruits and vegetables are grown in local areas, most are from Central America with most of our own nation's fruit and veggies being sold internationally...I see beef from Austrailia, Mexico, Canada, and very few American suppliers
Quote:The jobs would be filled, but for how long? You then run into the "trickle up" effect. Say for instance, someone that works in an industry that requires some form of skill or education makes $17 per hour. If the same wage could be made flipping burgers at micky D's or somewhere like that, then that job that the person works at would be warranted a pay raise, because after all, the skills/knowledge of the position is higher than the skills/knowledge required to flip burgers. There would most certainly have to be an incentive to get these higher skilled workers. So say you raise their pay to $25 per hour.
Again, the same thing happens. Those people that currently earn $25 per hour because perhaps their skill and/or education/experience is higher than the people that just got a raise to $25 per hour. The same scenario happens again. You need to raise their pay, and the cycle continues.
Along with the rising salaries you need to also look at the price of goods/services. Prices will rise, and even though more people have "more money", they still will only be able to afford what they can now. This is basically what is called Inflation.
Raising the minimum wage will do more to de-value the dollar.
Well I agree to the principle of your post, but I can't see any industry being understaffed...I agree that people would want to get paid for doing the easy jobs for the same pay as tech/construction et.al jobs, but in the end, people have to work...The "easy" jobs would be filled and someone would have to fill the other jobs...As I said people have to work and would take the other jobs...
Inflation will always be present
I understand the "trickle up" effect and in principle I agree, however as I said people have to work and won't refuse work when the bills start piling up and they get hungry...
I agree also that some jobs demand more money simply due to the nature of the work, my illustration was a hypothetical based on an flat rate pay scale for every industry
Quote:Ringo, is it that we Americans are soft and lazy? Or is it that the wage being offered is too low for the work?
Well...difficult to determine. The job doesn't reflect a skill set that would determine high pay. So many don't want to do it. But...as some have mentioned, they have worked these jobs. To buy their first car, supplement their college life, etc. But, IMO, there are some of the entitlement society who want pay that doesn't reflect the profit of the employer.
If the employer was making a big profit off his product, then perhaps pay employees a decent wage. But if the profit is minimal, the wages would reflect that.
But I do think many have become lazy and soft. In fact, and this may rankle a few feathers, but I tend to believe if we give the illegals amnesty and they figure out the system, they'd fit right in with the rest of the ones who think..why work. In fact many prisoners don't mind going back to jail because it's better what they have on the outside.
You get paid for what you know and skill set. Remain illiterate, stupid with no ambition then your pay scale may reflect your ambitions.
But any proud person would do what they had to in hopes of something better later. Others want shortcuts.
Quote:Well I agree to the principle of your post, but I can't see any industry being understaffed...I agree that people would want to get paid for doing the easy jobs for the same pay as tech/construction et.al jobs, but in the end, people have to work...The "easy" jobs would be filled and someone would have to fill the other jobs...As I said people have to work and would take the other jobs...
Inflation will always be present
I understand the "trickle up" effect and in principle I agree, however as I said people have to work and won't refuse work when the bills start piling up and they get hungry...
I agree also that some jobs demand more money simply due to the nature of the work, my illustration was a hypothetical based on an flat rate pay scale for every industry
First, I disagree that "inflation will always be present". If that's the case, then we are doomed because inflation will eventually make the dollar worthless. Just take a look at Greece.
Second, I don't think that there are many in this country that "get hungry" or would "have to work because bills start piling up". We have come to a point to where people don't have to work in order to survive. Can't afford food? There is a social program for that. Can't afford housing? There is a social program for that. Can't pay your electric bill? There is a social program for that.
Those on the left advocate feeding that machine. Some, and dare I say many on the right advocate giving these people a path out of this situation, rather than contribute to it.
What is happening is that those that are getting into a dire situation refuse to do what it takes to lift themselves out of that situation. Go back and read what RJ posted. Many that can and are able to choose to not work on that farm for the pay offered. They would rather sit back and reap the "benefits" that our government offers them rather than go out and EARN an honest wage. The work is "too hard".
The Mexican drug cartel's greatest nightmare?
We legalize pot and stay off the hard stuff.