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Quote:The Mexican drug cartel's greatest nightmare?

 

We legalize pot and stay off the hard stuff.

 

And your stupid comment contributes to the discussion how?

Quote:First, I disagree that "inflation will always be present".  If that's the case, then we are doomed because inflation will eventually make the dollar worthless.  Just take a look at Greece.

 

Second, I don't think that there are many in this country that "get hungry" or would "have to work because bills start piling up".  We have come to a point to where people don't have to work in order to survive.  Can't afford food?  There is a social program for that.  Can't afford housing?  There is a social program for that.  Can't pay your electric bill?  There is a social program for that.

 

Those on the left advocate feeding that machine.  Some, and dare I say many on the right advocate giving these people a path out of this situation, rather than contribute to it.

 

What is happening is that those that are getting into a dire situation refuse to do what it takes to lift themselves out of that situation.  Go back and read what RJ posted.  Many that can and are able to choose to not work on that farm for the pay offered.  They would rather sit back and reap the "benefits" that our government offers them rather than go out and EARN an honest wage.  The work is "too hard".

so people will just refuse to work even though they can't pay their housing or put gas in their cars or afford anything? I don't think so...

 

The social problem is another animal all together...Most now require you to do an active job search on a weekly basis...When there are hundreds of job openings in an applicants area, and a definate shortage of workers, how many will be allowed to stay on the social programs when it's obvious they are just refusing to work? One stipulation is you can not refuse work when work is offered...

 

The social system is slowly being revamped....Some states now require that you work doing community service or for charitable organizations (for no pay) in order to recieve benefits..Now I ask this, if the social system was revamped to make that a requirement for benefits, how many people would work for no pay rather than to work for $17 an hour?

Quote:And your stupid comment contributes to the discussion how?

And here I figured you smart enough to figure it out...

 

If you eliminate the market for their illegal products, you take away their power.  There is no Mexican cartel without American dollars, and that beats the hell out of spending more money on big machines that we aren't going to use.  American cokeheads, potheads, and heroin addicts keep the cartels going.

 

And as usual, the thread completely derailed into the immigration thing again.

Quote:Farmwork is not always mandated to pay minimum wage, some aspects of farm work can pay sub-minimum wage, ( such as being paid "$X.03 per bale of hay bucked) not to mention it's pretty much all cash under the table work so they can pay whatever they want or whatever the market will allow...Locals DO take the jobs, but the nature of such work is not always stable...There isn't much work between cuttings of hay, and after the hay was up, not much work until the next cutting, weeks later, so it becomes sporadic...It's hard to keep any help when it's seasonal or sporatic...I do recall, that farmwork allows up to a certain amount of labor called ( Casual Labor) to go un reported and un taxed...

 

That's simple, if they HAD to pay minum wage, they would simply raise the price of hay to compensate for the rise in labor cost

I think you're speaking more about what I'd call a hobby farm. In commercial farming, virtually none of that holds true.

Quote:I think you're speaking more about what I'd call a hobby farm. In commercial farming, virtually none of that holds true.

 

Even in commercial farming there are times when a temporary expanded work force is required. That's why there are migrant laborers.

Quote:Even in commercial farming there are times when a temporary expanded work force is required. That's why there are migrant laborers.

I'm well aware, and on those occasions my heart is just filled with joy.


I was speaking towards to the comments he made regarding sub minimum wage, cash under table payment, and being able to "simply raise the price" of a crop based on costs.

Quote:I'm well aware, and on those occasions my heart is just filled with joy.


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Haha I bet it is!

Quote:I think you're speaking more about what I'd call a hobby farm. In commercial farming, virtually none of that holds true.

There are owner operators such as people in my family who farm a small farm such as 160 acres...My Grandfather had just that and worked it until he was 86 years old...He milked cows twice a day every day, grew corn,alfalfa, and wheat, and raised beef and hogs for sale...I don't consider that to be a "hobby farm" and I'm not really sure what a "hobby farm" is...Not every farm is thousands of acres...There are thousands of farms with full time farmers making a good living with small acreages...

Quote:I'm well aware, and on those occasions my heart is just filled with joy.


I was speaking towards to the comments he made regarding sub minimum wage, cash under table payment, and being able to "simply raise the price" of a crop based on costs.

sub minimum wage is common in all farms...a lot of the pay is similiar to piece work...for so many bushels of potatoes you get $X for so many hay bales bucked, you get $X for so many beets thinned/dug/harvested you get $X...An hourly wage isn't allways what workers work for...Cutting hay will net you $X, per acre, picking peaches will net you $X per bushel...Now if you were to work for say Del Monte, or some HUGE international company which there are darn few of, you may get an hourly wage for every aspect, but it's doubtful...Most farm workers are considered to be independant contractors and get paid by the job at hand...The farmer will pay you $X to plow 100 acres...etc...

Quote:There are owner operators such as people in my family who farm a small farm such as 160 acres...My Grandfather had just that and worked it until he was 86 years old...He milked cows twice a day every day, grew corn,alfalfa, and wheat, and raised beef and hogs for sale...I don't consider that to be a "hobby farm" and I'm not really sure what a "hobby farm" is...Not every farm is thousands of acres...There are thousands of farms with full time farmers making a good living with small acreages...

Are we throwing out farming credentials here? I can assure you mine are pretty top notch.


  

Quote:sub minimum wage is common in all farms...a lot of the pay is similiar to piece work...for so many bushels of potatoes you get $X for so many hay bales bucked, you get $X for so many beets thinned/dug/harvested you get $X...An hourly wage isn't allways what workers work for...Cutting hay will net you $X, per acre, picking peaches will net you $X per bushel...Now if you were to work for say Del Monte, or some HUGE international company which there are darn few of, you may get an hourly wage for every aspect, but it's doubtful...Most farm workers are considered to be independant contractors and get paid by the job at hand...The farmer will pay you $X to plow 100 acres...etc...

I know how it works but what your describing is not a "sub-minimum wage." I pay my crew $.28 a vine to prune. Is that sub minimum wage?


The workers can do roughly 2 acres a day @454 vines per acre. 2 X 454 X .28 = $254.24 a day. That's hardly what I'd consider sub minimum wage.


Workers are rarely paid cash under the table. If you hire you're own workers you have to provide them proper safety training, which isn't very effective if you're employing seasonally or for a specific task. For something like that, it's much much more common to hire a licensed labor contractor, who keeps trained and licensed workers for a 33% surcharge. These guys are definitely NOT getting paid under the table.


Lastly, the farmer has a very limited amount of control over the price of his individual crop. I belong to two different co-ops that I trust to get me the best price, but it's not as if I can go in there and say I had to hire x amount of extra work this year, so I need $100 more per ton of grapes. It just doesn't work like that.


If you go it alone, the vast majority of the time you sign a pricing contract well before your crop is ready and you costs are fixed. If you have some unexpected cost arise, you sales contract was most likely signed months prior and it's not changing.

Quote:If you go it alone, the vast majority of the time you sign a pricing contract well before your crop is ready and you costs are fixed. If you have some unexpected cost arise, you sales contract was most likely signed months prior and it's not changing.

 

I don't think an immediate price increase was implied in the statement. Next year's contract either has a price increase due to increased labor costs based on this year's labor costs, or you plant something else, or sell the farm.

Quote:Are we throwing out farming credentials here? I can assure you mine are pretty top notch.


  

I know how it works but what your describing is not a "sub-minimum wage." I pay my crew $.28 a vine to prune. Is that sub minimum wage?


The workers can do roughly 2 acres a day @454 vines per acre. 2 X 454 X .28 = $254.24 a day. That's hardly what I'd consider sub minimum wage.


Workers are rarely paid cash under the table. If you hire you're own workers you have to provide them proper safety training, which isn't very effective if you're employing seasonally or for a specific task. For something like that, it's much much more common to hire a licensed labor contractor, who keeps trained and licensed workers for a 33% surcharge. These guys are definitely NOT getting paid under the table.


Lastly, the farmer has a very limited amount of control over the price of his individual crop. I belong to two different co-ops that I trust to get me the best price, but it's not as if I can go in there and say I had to hire x amount of extra work this year, so I need $100 more per ton of grapes. It just doesn't work like that.


If you go it alone, the vast majority of the time you sign a pricing contract well before your crop is ready and you costs are fixed. If you have some unexpected cost arise, you sales contract was most likely signed months prior and it's not changing.

minimum wage is not calculated by they day or by "per vine" Per vine indicates what is called piece work
...You get paid .28 cents per vine and nothing by the hour which is minimum wage is all about...If you prune 100 vines and your pruners break, and you have no back up, so you get sent home, you made $28 for the day...I understand that is a far fetched scenerio, but the premis is the same...Piece work and hourly wage can't be compared...


 

Some production welders/fabricators fabricate certain pieces as one part of a blueprint such as base plates to support columns on metal buildings...They may get paid ( for example purposes only) .25 for every base place fabricated and welded to the support column...That is also a situation where minimum wage is not in play...

 

 

I am not talking about credentials, I am talking about small owner operator farmers just as I said...

 

Most pricing agreements have clauses about raising prices...There are price increases in all parts and times of pricing agreements...Fuel increases, are a major one...Not everyone sells to a co-op either...some farmers sell to other farmers who are specialized in one area such as corn, beets, mint, potatos etc...and need hay for their own beef and horses...some sell to the local feed mills, some farmers sell to other farmers who sell to the co-op or local feed mill at a better rate than they get themselves,so the farmer does have some control over pricing

Quote:I don't think an immediate price increase was implied in the statement. Next year's contract either has a price increase due to increased labor costs based on this year's labor costs, or you plant something else, or sell the farm.

Correct, although most pricing agreements contain stipulations about increasing prices such as fuel costs...Many times during a pricing agreement, the price of goods increase

I always thought a hobby farm was something like we have. 5 acres with a decent amount of veggies, fruits, and starch that we eat but not nearly enough to ever sell. Some livestock we eat but never enough to sell. My 15 laying hen might give me enough eggs to sell but we just use them and give away what we don't eat mostly to family.


I call it a hobby because I still work full time in automotive. I'd love to be able to stay on my property and make a living off it but that's something I have no idea about, love farmers I look up to them. Me I'm just a redneck that doesn't like paying for food.

Quote:I always thought a hobby farm was something like we have. 5 acres with a decent amount of veggies, fruits, and starch that we eat but not nearly enough to ever sell. Some livestock we eat but never enough to sell. My 15 laying hen might give me enough eggs to sell but we just use them and give away what we don't eat mostly to family.

I call it a hobby because I still work full time in automotive. I'd love to be able to stay on my property and make a living off it but that's something I have no idea about, love farmers I look up to them. Me I'm just a redneck that doesn't like paying for food.

Eric, that's exactly what I was referring too.

Quote:Correct, although most pricing agreements contain stipulations about increasing prices such as fuel costs...Many times during a pricing agreement, the price of goods increase

Nope.

Quote:Next year's contract either has a price increase due to increased labor costs based on this year's labor costs

I wish that was the case but it just isn't.

Quote:minimum wage is not calculated by they day or by "per vine" Per vine indicates what is called piece work
...You get paid .28 cents per vine and nothing by the hour which is minimum wage is all about...If you prune 100 vines and your pruners break, and you have no back up, so you get sent home, you made $28 for the day...I understand that is a far fetched scenerio, but the premis is the same...Piece work and hourly wage can't be compared...


 

I am not talking about credentials, I am talking about small owner operator farmers just as I said...

 

Most pricing agreements have clauses about raising prices...There are price increases in all parts and times of pricing agreements...Fuel increases, are a major one...Not everyone sells to a co-op either...some farmers sell to other farmers who are specialized in one area such as corn, beets, mint, potatos etc...and need hay for their own beef and horses...some sell to the local feed mills, some farmers sell to other farmers who sell to the co-op or local feed mill at a better rate than they get themselves,so the farmer does have some control over pricing

You made the comparison to minimum wage lol. I agree you can't compare them but you threw the term sub minimum wage in there and that's not how it works at all. If the guy made $28 a day he only worked about an hour to get it. That's still not even close to minimum wage and I don't understand where you're going with that example.


You're talking about small owner operators annnnnnnnnnnnd making an appeal to authority at the same time.


All those examples you threw out could technically exist I guess but I'd consider those circumstances so rare as to not even be relevant to the discussion. And I've never seen a sales contract that stipulates prices based on fuel costs in my life. It's somewhat common in a mechanical harvesting contract but not a sales contract. Maybe they do it differently wherever it was your grandfather farms but I think to put the term "most" on it is a stretch.

Quote:I always thought a hobby farm was something like we have. 5 acres with a decent amount of veggies, fruits, and starch that we eat but not nearly enough to ever sell. Some livestock we eat but never enough to sell. My 15 laying hen might give me enough eggs to sell but we just use them and give away what we don't eat mostly to family.


I call it a hobby because I still work full time in automotive. I'd love to be able to stay on my property and make a living off it but that's something I have no idea about, love farmers I look up to them. Me I'm just a redneck that doesn't like paying for food.

I gotcha now...I wish I had enough time and room to grow everything I eat and make a living as well...Even to just supplement my income would be nice but I don't have the time or the room to do anything like that

Quote:Nope.

so you have never seen a price increase during the pricing agreement? everytime the price goes up it's a new price agreement? BULL [BLEEP]